Too well behaved....

[stormox]

I have just read a FB post online from a well known dog trainer "The mu**y professor" (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to write name) where she said she was out for a run and met a person with 6-8 off lead dogs walking to heel, calmly, as a pack with their owner.
She then went on to say that these dogs must have been trained with an e-collar, and it was wrong and they should be running about and having fun.
1) there was no proof an e-collar was used, and 2) why is it wrong to have well behaved dogs?
It seems you can't do right for being wrong.....

 

[Moobli]

The online dog training world is currently just one argument after another between "force free" and "balanced" trainers. It is toxic.

 

[stormox]

You are right, I honestly think they write deliberately provocative posts, lies even, to incite people to respond to increase their interactions and clicks. Nothing to do with training...it's "influencer power" they want......

 

[ihatework]

Well what they have done is declared themselves publicly to not be a good enough trainer to have a group of dogs work to heel! (Given their stance is it’s not possible without collar)

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

How ridiculous! And highly insulting to those of you with excellently trained dogs, note I don't include myself and my two labs under the very well trained umbrella. But back in the day I could happily walk my three collies and two terriers off lead with not a remote risk of bad behavior, no weird nuts of torture we're involved in their training.

I had the time and patience then to ensure they were well adjusted nice to be around mutts, as I am sure a lot of people with multiple dogs also do., a huge leap to arrive at the conclusion ecollars must have been used.

 

[FionaMc]

I saw this too - and I think you’ve somewhat misrepresented what she was saying and her post was very nuanced. It didn’t sound like the dogs she was talking about were in a heel (or other cued behaviour) and the concern was for their total disengagement with their environment and lack of diversity of behaviour within the group e.g. the appearance of going beyond well behaved to fearful of stepping outside of very specific boundaries. Equally, it sounds like she knew the people walking them and their training methods. She definitely wasn’t saying you can’t have well behaved dogs without an ecollar given she was walking three well behaved dogs of her own during the video. I don’t know her or follow her, so no idea if this was just a made up scenario or as described.

Without getting into a debate on whether these were ecollar trained dogs, her interpretation of their behaviour or validity of her post (yes, the ‘too well behaved’ absolutely works for stirring up online debate) - I do think asking if we’re okay with suppressing normal, optimistic behaviour as a side effect of the use of pain/discomfort/fear/stress is valid. As is questioning what our expectations are when we say ‘well behaved’, if we mean never an independent thought, or never allowing certain instinctual behaviours or expressions of joy/energy/enthusiasm/curiosity safely, that’s problematic to me.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't think I follow any dog training pages any more. Much better for my blood pressure.

I see plenty of shut down, disengaged dogs who have never been within a mile of an e-collar. Repetition and withholding of reward/any positive, lack of engagement or pressure/stress from the owner are all capable of causing the same behavior.

 

[MurphysMinder]

The most shut down dogs I see out and about are those wearing halti type headcollars.

 

[silv]

I totally expect my 3 to walk at heel without leads, not sure what the big deal is. I have never used e collars. Also I used a halti type thing on my Curly Coat when he was younger. He is very strong and weighs 40kgs a no brainer for me. He is certainly not shut down.

 

[Jenko109]

What annoyed me about it, is that it was just a snapshot in time. She wasnt there to witness the whole walk.

There are certain parts of our walk where my dogs are expected to be in a heel and to not engage with the environment. Just to walk. Usually this is when we are along a busy road, but the point is that if you saw me on that busy road, you might assume my whole walk is the same and that my dogs walk like that the whole way.

They don't. There are other parts of the walk where they can walk to the end of their leads, sniff whatever they want, pee on whatever they want, zigzag along and do whatever.

I appreciate I am referencing a lead walk, but the premise is the same.

There will be times when you want your dog to walk in a heel, to not interact with the environment and to just walk. It is not a sign that the dog is shut down, that a dog has been a 'victim' of an E collar or that he never gets to play and be a dog. It's just simply good practice for your dog to be able to do it. It helps keep him safe!

 

[skinnydipper]

It isn't somebody I follow but I've watched the video now. I agree with @FionaMc.

 

[Moobli]

Can someone PM the video or tell the rest of us where to find it please.

 

[Jenko109]

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

It's a public video so I cannot see why it cant be openly shared.

 

[stormox]

What annoyed me about it, is that it was just a snapshot in time. She wasnt there to witness the whole walk.

There are certain parts of our walk where my dogs are expected to be in a heel and to not engage with the environment. Just to walk. Usually this is when we are along a busy road, but the point is that if you saw me on that busy road, you might assume my whole walk is the same and that my dogs walk like that the whole time

I agree. This point was made a few times in the comments on her post, and my own dogs sometimes walk to heel and other times run around all depending on where we are and who is about.
Unfortunately there is no video of the 'at heel' dogs to look at but I am quite sure, as a runner, or as a dog walker, she would have moaned if 6-8 loose dogs had been running around!

 

[stormox]

Can someone PM the video or tell the rest of us where to find it please.

Unfortunately she doesn't post a video of the 'well trained' pack of dogs, only her own 3 or 4 running round and being called occasionally.

 

[blackcob]

As someone who (very occasionally) runs, I'm all for the brief application of stress to suppress some natural expressions of optimism and joy where these might include chasing, jumping up etc. and preventing 6-8 dogs from generally getting in people’s way or appearing as an intimidating pack is just courtesy.

‘Snapshot’ is the right term, they cannot possibly know from that interaction what the dogs get up to or look like the rest of the time. I’m sure my neighbour thinks my dogs only get a 20 minute on-lead pavement walk, because that’s all they see us do.

 

[Dobiegirl]

So what were her dogs doing when then were out of sight? she cant know what, I just felt the whole video was to publicise herself and show-case her after all we didnt see these dogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

It's a public video so I cannot see why it cant be openly shared.

That's....just a lot of words

 

[Clodagh]

I got bored at the point she proved she could recall her dog out of woodland. If you saw my dogs walking to heel they would not be stopping to sniff anything, they’d just be walking to heel (the clue is in the command). They aren’t walking to heel if they are sniffing, peeing, hunting, or bogging off into the trees. I can’t see what is offensive about a well behaved dog.
They aren’t robots but if I’m walking to my spot out shooting I don’t want them putting up birds/ peeing in the gunslips, sniffing peoples legs.

 

[Clodagh]

But when they aren’t walking to heel they behave like hers. That’s normal isn’t it? Is heel a BAD thing nowadays, dog must be free to express itself at all times?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Just watched the video, very self congratulatory load of rubbish. How does she know that the owner of the other bunch of dogs, does not call them back into close proximity as soon as she a runner as a speck on the horizon, or when another group of dogs appear. The huge assumptions being made without even one minute of footage showing these highly stressed and overtrained group of dogs in action does not back up her narrative at all really, does it?

 

[skinnydipper]

A bit pointless maybe when we couldn't see the dogs she was talking about but I wouldn't say it was a post to get too worked up about.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My old dog does not acknowledge other dogs and a lot of people, he actually takes a swerve to avoid other dogs, puts his head down and walks past. He's an incredibly expressive, joyful dog and I have the judges critiques to prove it but he doesn't seek the company of, care about, or notice dogs or most other people.
Some people actually do get upset because he ignores them/turns his back on them and doesn't want a fuss. I suppose they are like their owners

 

[Clodagh]

A bit pointless maybe when we couldn't see the dogs she was talking about but I wouldn't say it was a post to get too worked up about.

But you did agree, without seeing them , with a post saying suppressing natural behaviour was not a good result of training?
I am more worked up with ee (on hold) than that video but it’s really no wonder that we have a long thread about irresponsible owners if heeling is cruel.

 

[skinnydipper]

But you did agree, without seeing them , with a post saying suppressing natural behaviour was not a good result of training?
I am more worked up with ee (on hold) than that video but it’s really no wonder that we have a long thread about irresponsible owners if heeling is cruel.

Did you not read the posts on Facebook, some completely OTT?

Sorry I missed the bit where she said heeling was cruel. OK, got it now, do you mean where someone said 'cued behaviour'?

It's funny, I thought of you and your dogs. Free to 'be dogs' but also under close control when you need it. Without an E-Collar.

 

[Clodagh]

l

Did you not read the posts on Facebook, some completely OTT?

Sorry I missed the bit where she said heeling was cruel. OK, got it now, do you mean where someone said 'cued behaviour'?

It's funny, I thought of you and your dogs. Free to 'be dogs' but also under close control when you need it. Without an E-Collar.

i didn’t read the posts on fb, no. I read the post you alluded to on here, where you agreed with the poster who agreed with the video maker. If that makes sense.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh gawd, I definitely won't be reading The Comments

 

[Clodagh]

Did you not read the posts on Facebook, some completely OTT?

Sorry I missed the bit where she said heeling was cruel. OK, got it now, do you mean where someone said 'cued behaviour'?

It's funny, I thought of you and your dogs. Free to 'be dogs' but also under close control when you need it. Without an E-Collar.

Just re read Fiona’s post and I admit if I’d watched to the end if the video maybe the ‘trainer’ explained how she knew the dogs hadn’t been told to heel ( or other cued behaviour). Although without psychic powers that would be impressive deducting. ( trainer, not me, Fiona or you).

 

[druid]

She's pretty much describing all of my spaniels at heel. Spaniels who have never been near a shock collar. They ignore people, dogs and "stuff" when asked to walk with me.

 

[I'm Dun]

Mine will go by other dogs and people/bikes/runners/pushchairs etc etc etc off lead, about 10ft in front of me, sometimes further away, in a slow jog trot without even looking sideways at them. We live in close proximity to lots of people out exercising and walking dogs etc on a narrow 3ft wide path. They don't care. If there's someone they want to greet they will turn and check in with me and either be told ok or go round. Thats usually for people/dogs we know anyway, although my oldest sometimes takes a fancy to a child or person who looks like they want to fuss him, and will check its ok with me first.

Ive never actually tried doing it to heel, as its so narrow they are better off in front, and can be told to get over or go round or come back with no issues, so I've never taught it.

They are incredibly spoilt, gregarious idiots, who play like demons in open spaces, and will charge through the woods bursting with joy. They'd drop dead of fright and heart break if I put a shock collar on them