Top level dressage - is it kind?

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obviuosly theres more riders than Carl Hester at the top!, I was just using him as an example as I have been to a few of his demos and I take in what he says.
But the point is with out that bound between a horse and yourself you not going to get anywhere are you.
No top rider is going to take a beaten horse with sores and what not to an event like Hickstead or a european Grand Prix and there are enough trainned eyes about to spot any horse that may have a problem.
Have you ever had a lesson with any kind of top dressage or show jumper?
If you have you will know that the majority of them will tell you not to kick kick kick but to be light with your leg aid and to ask for a transiton in order to gain respect and a quick responce.a whip is to used with your leg to back it up not instead of this is where some low level riders (not that Im a hight level am still unaffliated to) but SOME get it wrong they think that a whip it an aid on its own but it isnt it to be used with your leg with is the aid to begin with.

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It isn't about them beating the horse into submission, it's about injuries you can't see...mental and under the skin. Working a horse in rollkur at home, where no one can see, makes the horse submissive (he can't see where he is going so he has to give in) and causes him pain in places the eye can't see. You would need to see x-rays of the horse to see the damage caused. When the horse is worked in the GP movements at home in rollkur, it is then easy for him to perform the movements in a competition outline, which is why they appear to find it so easy.

Not all riders work their horses like this and I would hope Carl Hester and the other Brits are some of those who don't, but not everyone is like CH. Anky and Sjef quite proudly tell people they work their horses in this manner.

And I have had lessons with a top dressage rider. She just wanted "deep and round", "kick her on, faster, faster", all of the time. So even the Brits do it sometimes.
 
going back to the original debate... some top riders are true horsemen and horsewomen, and are kind and fair to their horses. some aren't. 'learned helplessness' is horrible and i fear that rollkur creates this.
i was told that some dr horses are taught piaffe by riding them up into the corner of the indoor school so they have nowhere to go, then encouraging them up and forward (with whip) - i think this training really shows though, at least 1 at Euros had a very sharp, staccato, snatching-up hind feet in the piaffe style, no rhythm, bit of a giveaway.
if you know what you're looking for, i think you can tell which are the 'happy athletes' which have been trained systematically and correctly, and which are not...
 
If some ppl on here think that getting a horse to do this that and the other beacuse its un natural then why do you all ride at all? Horses natuarally are not ment to be backed or driven they were once upon a time free and wild.
But one day someone did back a horse and we descovered breeds which were built for pulling and breeds with lovely paces for dressage and those which were fab jumpers for xc and sho jumping and then them breeds which were just lovely for every day hacking or endurance.
Were lucky enough that they have allowed us to train them and as we have found out different horses are best for different disaplins.
just because some ppl are cruel dosent mean everyone at the top is
 
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If some ppl on here think that getting a horse to do this that and the other beacuse its un natural then why do you all ride at all? Horses natuarally are not ment to be backed or driven they were once upon a time free and wild.
But one day someone did back a horse and we descovered breeds which were built for pulling and breeds with lovely paces for dressage and those which were fab jumpers for xc and sho jumping and then them breeds which were just lovely for every day hacking or endurance.
Were lucky enough that they have allowed us to train them and as we have found out different horses are best for different disaplins.
just because some ppl are cruel dosent mean everyone at the top is

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I did say in my last post that not everyone is cruel but unfortunately some are.

I ride because it is possible to train a horse to do these movements sympathetically and kindly, so the horse does them willingly (sp?) instead of because it is scared of the consequences of *not* doing them. There is a world of difference between a horse who enjoys his work and a horse who does it because he has no option.

These horses are performing the same movements as dressage horses, but have been trained classically: Anja Beran
 
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I don't think its unkind, I think it demonstrates the incredible bond the riders create with the horse. If it didn't want to do it, I don't think it would
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S

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Ditto this, that saved me typing lol!


SJ is natural to a certain extent.
Its the same as everything though isn't it?
 
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After watching Edward Gals amazing performance on TV last night, I also got a horrible feeling from it. I appreciate the amount of work that must go into it etc. but its so unatural isn't it? The paces they do are not normal for a horse generally, and they do look so forced. I think show jumping / eventing etc. is easier to watch as the horse is allowed freedom to jump etc.

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Everything about top level dressage with the Dutch, Germans etc seems to be about winning only, these horses are bred to win and nothing else. Edward was a long time pupil of Anky and look at the comparisons between Salinero and Totilas, they could be the same horse. These horses are not beaten into submission in the sense that they are belted with a whip, they are systematically bullied with long sharp spurs and held in at the front end with double bridles (which actual bit in the mouth is anybodys guess
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) until they give in. Rollkur ie chin right into chest, is cruelty, for a start the horse can see nothing but it's own feet, it cannot see around or even in front.
There is irreparable damage to the vertebrae in the neck, and the horse cannot breathe, I could go on and on.

Obviously many people on this forum know all this already but I implore those that don't and want to know more to go onto Philippe Karls website and read all his info and letters etc and sign his petition, against this way of riding and the reforms he is trying to get at top level dressage.

I have never seen any of our Brits ride or warm up in this way, and I hope they never will and I'm sure they cringe at some of the poor horses plights in the warm up areas, they should speak up too? may be some of them have already, the dressage bods/officianados are not known for being very up-front. But everything now is about winning, the horses are bred and bred and bred and then a couple are chosen and bullied and bullied and bullied until they win, and it is up to us to change it.
 
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After watching Edward Gals amazing performance on TV last night, I also got a horrible feeling from it. I appreciate the amount of work that must go into it etc. but its so unatural isn't it? The paces they do are not normal for a horse generally, and they do look so forced. I think show jumping / eventing etc. is easier to watch as the horse is allowed freedom to jump etc.

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Everything about top level dressage with the Dutch, Germans etc seems to be about winning only, these horses are bred to win and nothing else. Edward was a long time pupil of Anky and look at the comparisons between Salinero and Totilas, they could be the same horse. These horses are not beaten into submission in the sense that they are belted with a whip, they are systematically bullied with long sharp spurs and held in at the front end with double bridles (which actual bit in the mouth is anybodys guess
frown.gif
) until they give in. Rollkur ie chin right into chest, is cruelty, for a start the horse can see nothing but it's own feet, it cannot see around or even in front.
There is irreparable damage to the vertebrae in the neck, and the horse cannot breathe, I could go on and on.

Obviously many people on this forum know all this already but I implore those that don't and want to know more to go onto Philippe Karls website and read all his info and letters etc and sign his petition, against this way of riding and the reforms he is trying to get at top level dressage.

I have never seen any of our Brits ride or warm up in this way, and I hope they never will and I'm sure they cringe at some of the poor horses plights in the warm up areas, they should speak up too? may be some of them have already, the dressage bods/officianados are not known for being very up-front. But everything now is about winning, the horses are bred and bred and bred and then a couple are chosen and bullied and bullied and bullied until they win, and it is up to us to change it.

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Ditto, I was also appaled at one of the Itallian Sj riders at the europeans how did he expect that horse to treach over the fence to clear it when he was constantly pulling at its mounth and see saweing it ! D**K H**D made me so mad watching him!
 
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Ditto, I was also appaled at one of the Itallian Sj riders at the europeans how did he expect that horse to treach over the fence to clear it when he was constantly pulling at its mounth and see saweing it ! D**K H**D made me so mad watching him!

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Was that the guy in sun glasses?
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He was actually a great rider IMO

S
 
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If some ppl on here think that getting a horse to do this that and the other beacuse its un natural then why do you all ride at all? Horses natuarally are not ment to be backed or driven they were once upon a time free and wild.
But one day someone did back a horse and we descovered breeds which were built for pulling and breeds with lovely paces for dressage and those which were fab jumpers for xc and sho jumping and then them breeds which were just lovely for every day hacking or endurance.
Were lucky enough that they have allowed us to train them and as we have found out different horses are best for different disaplins.
just because some ppl are cruel dosent mean everyone at the top is

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I did say in my last post that not everyone is cruel but unfortunately some are.

I ride because it is possible to train a horse to do these movements sympathetically and kindly, so the horse does them willingly (sp?) instead of because it is scared of the consequences of *not* doing them. There is a world of difference between a horse who enjoys his work and a horse who does it because he has no option.

These horses are performing the same movements as dressage horses, but have been trained classically: Anja Beran

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Well said, I couldn't agree more, isn't Anja Beran brilliant?
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I can watch her ride horses all day, they are so relaxed and happy in their work, no lather, no sweat, no terror in the eyes, everything willing and wanting to work.
 
I'm coming late to this argument, but agree with Camilla 4: dressage movements are seen naturally in horses in the field. They were developed in the army, which used their natural abilities to avoid being injured in battle or to improve their chances of hurting the enemy. Watching Moorlands Totilas (which I did, at Windsor) was pure bliss and I defy any true horseman or woman to not be completely bowled over by this horse. I also saw him working in. He did not look forced or stressed in any way.

Yes, there are horses that are badly trained - but that goes for ordinary, non-competitive riders, too. How many people do you know whose horses rule the roost, to the point that they're potentially dangerous? How many people keep swapping horses because the horse won't do whatever (not thinking it may be them, not the horse) and how many people keep swapping instructors because they don't think they're improving fast enough or because their instructor has gone out of fashion in their ignorant circle of friends?

Sorry to go off the track here, but I think the years of experienced, knowledgable training that goes into top class competition horses (in any discipline) deserves our respect, not our criticism.
 
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After watching Edward Gals amazing performance on TV last night, I also got a horrible feeling from it. I appreciate the amount of work that must go into it etc. but its so unatural isn't it? The paces they do are not normal for a horse generally, and they do look so forced. I think show jumping / eventing etc. is easier to watch as the horse is allowed freedom to jump etc.

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Everything about top level dressage with the Dutch, Germans etc seems to be about winning only, these horses are bred to win and nothing else. Edward was a long time pupil of Anky and look at the comparisons between Salinero and Totilas, they could be the same horse. These horses are not beaten into submission in the sense that they are belted with a whip, they are systematically bullied with long sharp spurs and held in at the front end with double bridles (which actual bit in the mouth is anybodys guess
frown.gif
) until they give in. Rollkur ie chin right into chest, is cruelty, for a start the horse can see nothing but it's own feet, it cannot see around or even in front.
There is irreparable damage to the vertebrae in the neck, and the horse cannot breathe, I could go on and on.

Obviously many people on this forum know all this already but I implore those that don't and want to know more to go onto Philippe Karls website and read all his info and letters etc and sign his petition, against this way of riding and the reforms he is trying to get at top level dressage.

I have never seen any of our Brits ride or warm up in this way, and I hope they never will and I'm sure they cringe at some of the poor horses plights in the warm up areas, they should speak up too? may be some of them have already, the dressage bods/officianados are not known for being very up-front. But everything now is about winning, the horses are bred and bred and bred and then a couple are chosen and bullied and bullied and bullied until they win, and it is up to us to change it.

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Ditto, I was also appaled at one of the Itallian Sj riders at the europeans how did he expect that horse to treach over the fence to clear it when he was constantly pulling at its mounth and see saweing it ! D**K H**D made me so mad watching him!

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Sadly I didn't get a chance to watch the show jumping but I can imagine
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I agree that much knowledgable and thoughtful effort goes into competition at all levels, but I also believe that many results are achieved in unacceptable ways and this is far from new. The horses movements are indeed natural but coercive methods are often used to request or exaggerate them. I genuinely know nothing of Gal's methods, although I have never been an Anky fan!! - but I do remember from my childhood showing days seeing some terrible methods used to get the "daisy cutting" actions so desired in children's ponies.
 
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Well said, I couldn't agree more, isn't Anja Beran brilliant?
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I can watch her ride horses all day, they are so relaxed and happy in their work, no lather, no sweat, no terror in the eyes, everything willing and wanting to work.

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If I had the choice of sending a horse to AB over a "dressage rider", I can tell you straight away who I would choose. What I like about the classical trainers is that they are willing to train any horse in this way, and to attempt to do these movement. I had lessons with a dressage rider (won't name names) about 18 months ago. She loved my Hanoverian mare but when I got current horse (IDxTBxcarthorse
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), she just said "what on earth have you bought THAT for?". My classical instructor, on the otherhand, adores him and says whilst he isn't flashy, he's willing and more than capable of at least having a go at some of those movements. It's a totally different world - one where having a flashy big moving WB isn't the be all and end all of everything!
 
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I'm coming late to this argument, but agree with Camilla 4: dressage movements are seen naturally in horses in the field. They were developed in the army, which used their natural abilities to avoid being injured in battle or to improve their chances of hurting the enemy. Watching Moorlands Totilas (which I did, at Windsor) was pure bliss and I defy any true horseman or woman to not be completely bowled over by this horse. I also saw him working in. He did not look forced or stressed in any way.



Yes, there are horses that are badly trained - but that goes for ordinary, non-competitive riders, too. How many people do you know whose horses rule the roost, to the point that they're potentially dangerous? How many people keep swapping horses because the horse won't do whatever (not thinking it may be them, not the horse) and how many people keep swapping instructors because they don't think they're improving fast enough or because their instructor has gone out of fashion in their ignorant circle of friends?

Sorry to go off the track here, but I think the years of experienced, knowledgable training that goes into top class competition horses (in any discipline) deserves our respect, not our criticism.

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What you say about your average everyday horse rider and the things they do is possibly true, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are discussing top level riders representing their countries in a dressage competition and the methods they use to get there and whether they are cruel, abusive or not, just for the sake of winning. Have you watched the training videos of Anky and Edward? there are plenty on utube. They show clearly the methods of Rollkur by both riders, are you saying that the end justifies the means?
 
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Yes, there are horses that are badly trained - but that goes for ordinary, non-competitive riders, too. How many people do you know whose horses rule the roost, to the point that they're potentially dangerous? How many people keep swapping horses because the horse won't do whatever (not thinking it may be them, not the horse) and how many people keep swapping instructors because they don't think they're improving fast enough or because their instructor has gone out of fashion in their ignorant circle of friends?


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No one has said that it's only the top level riders who can be cruel - how many of us have seen a child's pony at a local SJ show in a gag, child with spurs on, see sawing on mouth and kicking with spurs when pony "is naughty" yet the child hasn't been taught how to ride properly or sympathetically?

There are cruel and unsympathetic riders at all levels, but when every day riders see their idols, people like Anky, riding their horses in a certain way, they unfortunately will try to emulate it.
 
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Well said, I couldn't agree more, isn't Anja Beran brilliant?
grin.gif
I can watch her ride horses all day, they are so relaxed and happy in their work, no lather, no sweat, no terror in the eyes, everything willing and wanting to work.

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If I had the choice of sending a horse to AB over a "dressage rider", I can tell you straight away who I would choose. What I like about the classical trainers is that they are willing to train any horse in this way, and to attempt to do these movement. I had lessons with a dressage rider (won't name names) about 18 months ago. She loved my Hanoverian mare but when I got current horse (IDxTBxcarthorse
wink.gif
), she just said "what on earth have you bought THAT for?". My classical instructor, on the otherhand, adores him and says whilst he isn't flashy, he's willing and more than capable of at least having a go at some of those movements. It's a totally different world - one where having a flashy big moving WB isn't the be all and end all of everything!

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Absolutely!!! correctness, correct training,free, flowing and happy in their work, has been replaced by big,butch,overdeveloped, high action,forced,depressed, tight.

I could cry
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It's by a German vet and is a really good scientifically based book detailing the adverse way in which rollkur training affects horses. Worth a read. It talks about the incorrect muscle development, how the horses develop across their backs and necks as a result of this sort of training, some discussion about how it affects their movements and gaits.

Tug of War

I had a passing interest in all of this until I read that book, which totally opened my eyes
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I think what the OP neglects to mention (or realise?) is that there is more than one way to train a dressage horse. I have seen horrible, horribly stressed horses working in all disciplines, and I have seen happy and relaxed horses do the same. To state that top level dressage is cruel is a bit of a broad statement!

I think Carl Hester is widely recognised as a kind and sympathetic rider/horseman, and I think we have all seen pictures of dressage horses looking sweated up, unhappy and generally forced to submit and do the work. I know which is more pleasing to the eye and heart, and which was trained with kindness and which with harsh methods. Ultimately, I hope the former is the one that brings home the very top scores, because dressage is all about harmony and partnership, not domination and submission. There is a difference and one hopes that the judge can see it.

ETA the difference could not be further exemplified than with the two different dressage instructors I have tried. The first told me to "Kick kick kick, tap him, harder, really mean it!" and had me working a green horse forced between hand and leg (and whip) for almost the whole hour, without a mental or physical break, even though she knew he was young and green. Why I didn't walk out of that lesson after the first 10 minutes I don't know - I think it had something to do with the fact that this woman is a respected dressage professional around here. What is now clear is that she is very much into dominating the horse and "breaking their spirit." Poor Frankie, who had been trained with kindness and sympathy, was sore and stiff for a good week afterwards, and I feel that one lesson also set him back in his mental attitude to work.

Conversley, I had a lovely dressage trainer at horse camp who is also a professional female dressage rider, and she helped me to get a fine tune out of Frankie, and even though he had an intensive weekend of dressage lessons he was not stiff, argumentative or bored afterwards, just tired. Since then he has retained the learnings from her lessons, and his mental attitude has improved tenfold.

I'm waffling, but really if I had continued with first woman I would have ended up with a mediochre dressage horse who was no fun to be around because he would have lost his personnality. Continuing with the second I can see a nice balanced horse performing willingly to the best of his ability. And that is what I would like to see in dressage at any level.
 
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Have you read Tug of War?
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Yes, a friend lent it to me last year, it made me cry, I had no idea before a good friend of mine introduced me to Philippe Karl, Anja Beran and Dr Gerd Hauschmann and their teachings,(not in person.......I wish
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) I have now read all the books and am at the moment reading "Classical schooling with the horse in mind" by Anja Beran. It is very good and I keep going back to it again and again just to remind myself of her teachings. I've also watched Philippe Karls dvd's and am totally enthralled at his way with horses, he is a marvelous rider and their is absolutely no force and the horses are never,never behind the vertical. But then from your postings you already know them well too
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I wish more people would also learn as we have.
 
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I think what the OP neglects to mention (or realise?) is that there is more than one way to train a dressage horse. I have seen horrible, horribly stressed horses working in all disciplines, and I have seen happy and relaxed horses do the same. To state that top level dressage is cruel is a bit of a broad statement!

I think Carl Hester is widely recognised as a kind and sympathetic rider/horseman, and I think we have all seen pictures of dressage horses looking sweated up, unhappy and generally forced to submit and do the work. I know which is more pleasing to the eye and heart, and which was trained with kindness and which with harsh methods. Ultimately, I hope the former is the one that brings home the very top scores, because dressage is all about harmony and partnership, not domination and submission. There is a difference and one hopes that the judge can see it.

ETA the difference could not be further exemplified than with the two different dressage instructors I have tried. The first told me to "Kick kick kick, tap him, harder, really mean it!" and had me working a green horse forced between hand and leg (and whip) for almost the whole hour, without a mental or physical break, even though she knew he was young and green. Why I didn't walk out of that lesson after the first 10 minutes I don't know - I think it had something to do with the fact that this woman is a respected dressage professional around here. What is now clear is that she is very much into dominating the horse and "breaking their spirit." Poor Frankie, who had been trained with kindness and sympathy, was sore and stiff for a good week afterwards, and I feel that one lesson also set him back in his mental attitude to work.

Conversley, I had a lovely dressage trainer at horse camp who is also a professional female dressage rider, and she helped me to get a fine tune out of Frankie, and even though he had an intensive weekend of dressage lessons he was not stiff, argumentative or bored afterwards, just tired. Since then he has retained the learnings from her lessons, and his mental attitude has improved tenfold.

I'm waffling, but really if I had continued with first woman I would have ended up with a mediochre dressage horse who was no fun to be around because he would have lost his personnality. Continuing with the second I can see a nice balanced horse performing willingly to the best of his ability. And that is what I would like to see in dressage at any level.

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Good for you
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what a lovely post, you are experienced enough to realise that the first trainer was wrong and did something about it straight away. But this aggressive trainer will go and teach someone else the 'wrong way' and their poor horse will suffer. It has to be changed at the top, so that instructors look at their peers and see something different to what they see now (in some quarters).
 
Always ride with your horse as a partnership, tackle each element of your disaplin as a team and learn together.
If you and your horse are a parnership youll help each other along and without him/her being unkind they'll tell you when they do not like something your doing and in return youll relalise this learn,change and grow also from you as a rider youll teach your horse new tricks and movements and being as loyal as they are to you will take your aid and try there very hardest and when they can do what you ask will be over joyed, every step of improvement is a wonderfull thing.
This is what makes a partner ship. One horsewoman/man and their horse a relationship of trust,loyalty and respect.
Cheesey I know but just came to mind so I thought id write,
My old horse bless him (rip) taught me alot and I also showed him a few things to we were this partnership and I know when something was up and him with me to
 
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After watching Edward Gals amazing performance on TV last night, I also got a horrible feeling from it. I appreciate the amount of work that must go into it etc. but its so unatural isn't it? The paces they do are not normal for a horse generally, and they do look so forced. I think show jumping / eventing etc. is easier to watch as the horse is allowed freedom to jump etc.

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Yes because you often see a horse in the field "popping" itself round a course of coloured jumps for fun.......
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Yes, dressage is based on natural movements but then they are magnified almost out of recognition. This is, in many ways, no different from breeding dog characteristics until the animal is almost a cartoon representation of how it started out. A friend of mine was really getting into dressage in a big way until she observed the "top flight" preparing at a major championship and realised what abuse and cruelty some people are prepared to inflict on their horse in order to win. Showjumping is no better. The old rapping has been replaced by the electric cattle prod. I've seen it myself.
 
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I wish more people would also learn as we have.

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But I do look back and cringe at how I used to ride my horse, as I listened to people I shouldn't have done.
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Same here, don't like to think about it.
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