Topline - ART2Ride

flying_high said:
My horse is recovering from mild kissing spine. And I have done quite a bit of reading / video watching and thinking about it.
.....
With all these things, I think it is about the skill you do them with as well as what path you follow. And the idea of working to make horse flexible and supple. If your horse is already strung out, hollow and disconnected, I am not sure that staying disconnected and lowering the head works. I think you have to assess what you have and what you want to change, and what might do that.
Click to expand...

My horse is also recovering from mild kissing spines. Like you, I've done a lot of reading into this and thinking about the biomechanics of the horse, and these are exactly the sort of exercises I will be doing with him when I get him back from water treadmill rehab on Tuesday (to say I am excited would be an understatement, I feel like I'm going to explode! Hopefully he won't feel the same haha!).

Whether I have the skill to be able to get my boy going like this is another question, I do have an instructor on standby... maybe I'll post a video if I achieve it (and am feeling very brave!).
 
I’m going to agree with Tristar in that I feel the trot is too hurried at times in that video Horsekaren. Eventually you want to work towards a more forwards trot, but when introducing stretching, I actually like to slow them down to begin with. You can still have them infront of your leg, but slow the rhythm and keep it more consistent. There are times when his rhythm is changing and his head is flinging up, which suggests he isn’t seeking the stretch through his back being raised and him working into a lower contact, but by being put there. Make sure you aren’t losing the contact as he stretches. Some people get confused and assume that when the horse is working in the required lower frame, that the reins should go loose. They shouldn’t. The horse needs a consistent contact to work into regardless of where his head and neck are.

As for the Art2Ride stuff, I’ve followed it on Facebook for a while, largely out of curiosity. I think it has its places, but I wouldn’t want to work a horse like that all the time, just the same as I wouldn’t want to work a horse up in a competition frame all the time.
Mine do 10 minutes stretchy work at the start of every session, where I ride them slightly longer and lower in walk, trot and canter, then they have a 5 minutes stretch at the end of the session. I will also vary the frame throughout quite regularlarly, so I don’t pick them up into a ‘normal’ contact after the warm-up and keep them there until the cool down, but instead vary the length of their neck at different times. It was a game changer for me when I started working horses this way and has improved their way of going and elasticity in the contact no end.
 
JFTD-WS said:
And this, folks, is why dressage -and schooling in general - is confusing to many people ;)
Click to expand...

:D For me, Yes! all very confusing!

Are we referring to my horse as calm and straight or was that the original clip, Is he calm and straight?

Any way we had a little play this morning, his face wasn't on the floor and he didn't fall over, he seemed to enjoy it, what ever it was we were trying to achieve :P (i guess it was more like riding without reins TBH) If anything our main outcome was that he was really listening to my posting in trot and adjusting from little trot to big trot just by my seat (basic, but he did get quiet good at setting the speed and i would just try and keep up :'D, that was a good 6 months ago mind)
 
like Many things training horses is complicated and simple at the same time .
Ride your horse forward and keep him straight was on the wall of the schools where I studied .
With some training we all know what that means .
But...... it is more complicated than that put in more impulsion than the balance and training of the horse allow and it will sharp go wrong ,the relationship between speed and impulsion and your skills develop with time ,the difference between the longitudinal and lateral bend lines and the importance of lateral bend to train and develop balance and collection all these things are simple and complicated at the same time.
A straight horse is not really straight it’s able to maintain even bend easily and correctly on both reins along its whole length the developing of straightness is something that goes on throughout a horses life
That’s whats so fascinating about training horses .
It’s simple but not so simple .
One thing for sure when it goes wrong always return to that basic forward and straight or evenly bent which is really what you want .
 
tallyho! said:
What’s confusing about calm forward and straight?
Click to expand...

Nothing at all - but one could use many methods and styles to get there... You genuinely think there is nothing confusing in dressage when posters will make exactly opposite suggestions on the same video?

ester said:
Except that ‘calm and straight’ were not used in either comment?
Click to expand...

Never let the facts stand in the way of a forum thread!

Horsekaren said:
Are we referring to my horse as calm and straight or was that the original clip, Is he calm and straight?
Click to expand...

Tallyho! isn't passing a helpful comment on your training, or on the method in the video. They are saying that the aim, outcome, and beginnings of dressage should be in having a horse which is "calm, straight and forward" - which is certainly true. How you achieve that, how you build on it - they're clearly open to debate.

Fwiw, I think your horse is both not forward enough, and going to fast in trot at times - I would work on developing more impulsion (not speed) and having more control over his trot so that you can slow it down, increase his stride length and decrease it, and develop more quality in his movement, transferring his weight behind. But that's something that will take time - and working him on a loose contact and getting him really working from your seat, as you are currently trying to, will certainly help.
 
JFTD-WS said:
Fwiw, I think your horse is both not forward enough, and going to fast in trot at times - I would work on developing more impulsion (not speed) and having more control over his trot so that you can slow it down, increase his stride length and decrease it, and develop more quality in his movement, transferring his weight behind. .
Click to expand...

/\/\ agree with this.

i think what's missing is a proper half halt. I think there's no point doing low and low unless the horse understand the half halt and accepts it. Otherwise it all just gets too 'reiny and handsy'

We work all the horses long and low at the start and end of every session. The way they go at the start long and low session is totally different to how they go at the one at the end. We really use it as a process at the start to get the horse to offer up its back and relax before we do any other work.

AI think the correct riding for it is totally different depending on the horse, one of mine I used the long and low to really get him pushing forward using his hind. Another I literally half halt every stride or two to stop her running forward. Horses for courses!.
 
and what would be the many styles and methods of getting to calm forwards straight?

just interested in any program {detailed} of how other people achieve this, not vague statements but actually what you do on a daily weekly basis and overall timescale, allowing for any horses shortcomings, ie. sluggish, too hot, bit thick, too clever, etc
 
ponyparty said:
My horse is also recovering from mild kissing spines. Like you, I've done a lot of reading into this and thinking about the biomechanics of the horse, and these are exactly the sort of exercises I will be doing with him when I get him back from water treadmill rehab on Tuesday (to say I am excited would be an understatement, I feel like I'm going to explode! Hopefully he won't feel the same haha!).

Whether I have the skill to be able to get my boy going like this is another question, I do have an instructor on standby... maybe I'll post a video if I achieve it (and am feeling very brave!).
Click to expand...

Wishing you lots of luck.I have been using my Iphone to video progress and sharing it with physio / vet / instructor / experienced friends for feedback.

I also had a few tailored lessons helping my ground work.

I bought this book on my physio’s recommendation - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1570768676/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
tristar said:
and what would be the many styles and methods of getting to calm forwards straight?

just interested in any program {detailed} of how other people achieve this, not vague statements but actually what you do on a daily weekly basis and overall timescale, allowing for any horses shortcomings, ie. sluggish, too hot, bit thick, too clever, etc
Click to expand...

Surely it entirely depends, each schooling session you assess the horse you have today, and aim to finish the session with a better moving horse than you started. There is no prescriptive guide. Schooling you know what you want to aim for as an end (or progressive goal) and you use exercises / techniques in the school to take baby steps towards those goals.
 
Goldenstar said:
like Many things training horses is complicated and simple at the same time .
Ride your horse forward and keep him straight was on the wall of the schools where I studied .
With some training we all know what that means .
But...... it is more complicated than that put in more impulsion than the balance and training of the horse allow and it will sharp go wrong ,the relationship between speed and impulsion and your skills develop with time ,the difference between the longitudinal and lateral bend lines and the importance of lateral bend to train and develop balance and collection all these things are simple and complicated at the same time.
A straight horse is not really straight it’s able to maintain even bend easily and correctly on both reins along its whole length the developing of straightness is something that goes on throughout a horses life
That’s whats so fascinating about training horses .
It’s simple but not so simple .
One thing for sure when it goes wrong always return to that basic forward and straight or evenly bent which is really what you want .
Click to expand...

The other point often meant when referring to straight, is a horse is wedge shaped / pie of pie / pie of brie shaped. It is narrower in front than behind. Naturally travels quarters in, shoulders out on three tracks.
Straightening is bringing the front legs to be in the middle of the tracks of the hind legs.
 
I never understood it correctly until I was put on a few different well trained horses by my trainer (not warmblood types, just various normal bodied ones) and got to understand what it felt like when it was done properly. How it felt when the horse was doing the best trot it could do for where it was at in its training. How it felt when that horse lifted and used it hind end, pushing correctly and in balance.

Once you have the feel for it and understand what you are looking for then its a case of sitting on any horse and analysing
- where it is at in its training (does it have balance, does it understand contact?)
- what its conformation is (is it naturally powerful behind or is it built to tip forward on its shoulder?)
- what age and condition is the horse (is it arthritic, will it struggle in the surface i have, has it any muscle?)
- what aids does this horse have (does it understand the half halt, do i have control of the shoulders, does it accept the leg, respond to the leg?)
- the horses natural energy (does i need to push the horse to get its rhythm and the push from behind, or do i need to slow it to balance it?)

After that then I think its just a case of balancing all the spinning plates at the same time - of finding the horse's balance, knowing when to push or hold, checking if its falling out or in, checking i'm balanced and not tipping forward, back or sideways to unbalance him, checking the contact is elastic and supportive without pulling, checking im half halting when I feel the horse start to unbalance or rush, listening for the proper trot rhytmn over anything else really, and over all understanding how much the horse is able to do at the time.

But I think it really comes down to just having the feel of what you are looking for the horse to achieve for where its at.
 
JFTD-WS said:
And this, folks, is why dressage -and schooling in general - is confusing to many people ;)
Click to expand...

It is confusing thing is the op's horse is a totally different type to what I have, mine are arabs so they move totally differently and tend to move in a very energetic manor, so I suppose I am used to seeing horses go in this way , for that type of horse perhaps that is his forward trot it's just to me it doesn't look that way.
 
``balancing all the spinning plates at the same time`` analysing the horse you are sitting on, and feel, i like that that.
 
flying_high said:
Wishing you lots of luck.I have been using my Iphone to video progress and sharing it with physio / vet / instructor / experienced friends for feedback.

I also had a few tailored lessons helping my ground work.

I bought this book on my physio’s recommendation - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1570768676/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Click to expand...

Ooh looks interesting... Might have to get myself a copy! I bought this book on several people's recommendations (including my saddle fitter): https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0974767018/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and started doing the exercises every day after lunging. After a couple of weeks I noticed he was starting to stretch down on the lunge - not consistently, but it's a start. Small steps, right?!
 
ponyparty said:
Ooh looks interesting... Might have to get myself a copy! I bought this book on several people's recommendations (including my saddle fitter): https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0974767018/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and started doing the exercises every day after lunging. After a couple of weeks I noticed he was starting to stretch down on the lunge - not consistently, but it's a start. Small steps, right?!
Click to expand...

Definitely small steps in the right direction build to big steps. That is meant to be a good book!

A friend recently gave me the Gillian Higgins Pilates for horses DVD - I have seen it and made notes, happy to post it to you, if want to take a look. Suspect there is overlap but I am more a visual person. https://www.horsesinsideout.com/product-page/pilates-for-horses

My horse came back from RVC 23rd December, and is slowly getting more supple and able to stretch, and more cat / panther like in movement.
 
Last edited:
ponyparty said:
Ooh looks interesting... Might have to get myself a copy! I bought this book on several people's recommendations (including my saddle fitter): https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0974767018/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and started doing the exercises every day after lunging. After a couple of weeks I noticed he was starting to stretch down on the lunge - not consistently, but it's a start. Small steps, right?!
Click to expand...

that is a very good resource-there are some great in hand pole exercises for a horse's core as well.
 
paddi22 said:
I never understood it correctly until I was put on a few different well trained horses by my trainer (not warmblood types, just various normal bodied ones) and got to understand what it felt like when it was done properly. How it felt when the horse was doing the best trot it could do for where it was at in its training. How it felt when that horse lifted and used it hind end, pushing correctly and in balance.

Once you have the feel for it and understand what you are looking for then its a case of sitting on any horse and analysing
- where it is at in its training (does it have balance, does it understand contact?)
- what its conformation is (is it naturally powerful behind or is it built to tip forward on its shoulder?)
- what age and condition is the horse (is it arthritic, will it struggle in the surface i have, has it any muscle?)
- what aids does this horse have (does it understand the half halt, do i have control of the shoulders, does it accept the leg, respond to the leg?)
- the horses natural energy (does i need to push the horse to get its rhythm and the push from behind, or do i need to slow it to balance it?)

After that then I think its just a case of balancing all the spinning plates at the same time - of finding the horse's balance, knowing when to push or hold, checking if its falling out or in, checking i'm balanced and not tipping forward, back or sideways to unbalance him, checking the contact is elastic and supportive without pulling, checking im half halting when I feel the horse start to unbalance or rush, listening for the proper trot rhytmn over anything else really, and over all understanding how much the horse is able to do at the time.

But I think it really comes down to just having the feel of what you are looking for the horse to achieve for where its at.
Click to expand...

Think that is very well expressed. I also think some big moving elastic warmbloods can fake the feel, and have the athleticism to tuck nose and still move with some elasticity without truly moving through the back. More traditional horse such as TBs it is more what you see it what you get, and if it feels and looks good it is good.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
that is a very good resource-there are some great in hand pole exercises for a horse's core as well.
Click to expand...

I am currently doing an exercise with 7 raised walk poles, asymmetrically raised. Ten repetitions on each rein (on lunge / in hand). I built up from 3 poles and 3 repetitions. Really good strengthening exercise. I try to do it at the end of every schooling or lunging session.
 
Has anyone got any clips or links of a traditional cob type horse that is working forward?

I am very confused between 'Forwardness' and 'Speed'

I'm coming to the conclusion when i think he is being forward we are actually just speeding around :( Would be great to see an example.
 
I bought a very weak horse and put a "course" of 7 raised walk poles on the way to and from the field. It meant he did it twice a day at least! But, when that is every day without exception that adds up. Also if I were hacking we would have a diversion across the lawn, so some days 4 X a day :-)
 
Horsekaren said:
Has anyone got any clips or links of a traditional cob type horse that is working forward?

I am very confused between 'Forwardness' and 'Speed'

I'm coming to the conclusion when i think he is being forward we are actually just speeding around :( Would be great to see an example.
Click to expand...

It is a large Cob X ID (16.3), but very much a cob shape, attitude and feet! He does look a bit slimmer through a full scalp of all of his hair.

9460922.jpg

This was him a couple of months earlier, I had trimmed his heels but not his mane. He was a bit more earthbound in the way he went at this stage, I had been working for him for about a month.

9460727 (2).jpg

At first he would just run on his forehand and through the bridle down the school, often not turn and crash into the fence! He knew how to go out through his shoulder as well as barge straight forwards. When he moved he made the ground thunder.

I think I already said in a message, I start with a lot of ground work on a halter and in a bridle to have them respond to the bit in a productive way as on the floor I can explain myself with a schooling whip if it is a bolshy cob. Not in a nasty way, just an irritating tap until he realises that he would be better taking his attention off "hay-in-the-haynet-in-his-stable" and onto the job in hand.

Both in hand and also once into ridden work, I would have him reverse from the halter and then the bridle, bend etc before having to move forwards with a bolshy one. Then we would work a lot in walk until that was also soft and on the same page as me as far as his responses go. Only then would we trot.
 
Last edited:
Red-1 said:
I bought a very weak horse and put a "course" of 7 raised walk poles on the way to and from the field. It meant he did it twice a day at least! But, when that is every day without exception that adds up. Also if I were hacking we would have a diversion across the lawn, so some days 4 X a day :)
Click to expand...

Yes, I pondered this, but thought it would make me rather unpopular as with the rest of the owners and handlers at my yard! Sadly don’t have my own land! Would save me lots of time putting poles out and away again!
 
flying_high said:
Yes, I pondered this, but thought it would make me rather unpopular as with the rest of the owners and handlers at my yard! Sadly don’t have my own land! Would save me lots of time putting poles out and away again!
Click to expand...

Aw, ours was on the lawn, I bet if you did find a verge or something and said why you were doing it, they would all be over them! :p
 
Red-1 said:
It is a large Cob X ID (16.3), but very much a cob shape, attitude and feet! He does look a bit slimmer through a full scalp of all of his hair.

View attachment 29167

This was him a couple of months earlier, I had rimmed his heels but not his mane. He was a bit more earthbound in the way he went at this stage, I had been working for him for about a month.

View attachment 29168

At first he would just run on his forehand and through the bridle down the school, often not turn and crash int the fence! He knew how to go out through his shoulder as well as barge straight forwards.

I think I already said in a message, I start with a lot of ground work on a halter and in a bridle to have them respond to the bit in a productive way as on the floor I can explain myself with a schooling whip if it is a bolshy cob. Not in a nasty way, just an irritating tap until he realises that he would be better taking his attention off "hay-in-the-haynet-in-his-stable" and onto the job in hand.

Both in hand and also once into ridden work, I would have him reverse from the halter and then the bridle, bend etc before having to move forwards with a bolshy one. Then we would work a lot in walk until that was also soft and on the same page as me as far as his responses go. Only then would we trot.
Click to expand...

WOW WOW WOW! What a transformation! He looks dreamy! You look very happy with him :D

We will get there... one day! many days from now :p I know we are making progress, just hope it all starts to come together :)
 
Horsekaren said:
WOW WOW WOW! What a transformation! He looks dreamy! You look very happy with him :D

We will get there... one day! many days from now :p I know we are making progress, just hope it all starts to come together :)
Click to expand...

I actually like how you are training him, you are 'working with' him as opposed to trying to force him (which would usually just bring more tension). You are looking at alternative ways of proceeding as you are not 100% happy with the current result. You are doing it a bit at a time, so even if you go down the wrong track you are unlikely to make the wheels come off. Most of all you are enjoying him, and he is enjoying his time with you too. When it comes down to it, that is the reason most people have their horses.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top