Totally despairing

[Irish-Only]

Last October My home bred mare was running a temperature, not eating (this is a mare that I had to weigh feed/hay to keep weight off) to the point of maybe one or two droppings in a 24hr period. She understandably really lost weight, was depressed and I was trying all sorts of food to tempt her. Lots of bloods run and nothing really obvious. Vet treated it as a virus with penicillin initially but had no effect whatsoever. Poor girl then started with involuntary head tremors (sideways not up and down), and after talking to the vet she had 24 days of doxycycline. Very very slow improvement and roll forward to now, only last week we thought she was back to normal.
She has just started with the head tremors again. Doesn’t affect her when she is ridden, but it is really distressing to see. I have videos of it but don’t know how to post them.
We moved to the area July 2021 and just don’t know whether it is anything to do with that, but we are now approaching the same time of year that it started 2021. We moved from limestone country to clay with horseflies and ticks. Acorns?
We’ve had horses for 40+ years, ran a stud for 20 of those and are completely flummoxed.
Absolutely any help and/or suggestions welcome.

 

[Equi]

What exactly has the vet done bar bloods and antibiotics? I’d want a full dental check up, nasal swab/camera and a neck xray.

 

[Irish-Only]

Dental check done and all fine. She was checked for lameness etc and nothing showed up. She is not one to do silly things in the field and leads a fairly uneventful life under saddle and is not showing any unwillingness to work (she is definitely mardy if anything is not quite right under saddle).

 

[Irish-Only]

https://share.icloud.com/photos/07cIAKgFx8BLZU2Sa5r9dpApg

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Was Lymes ruled out originally?

 

[Irish-Only]

Was Lymes ruled out originally?

 

[Irish-Only]

Evidence of exposure to anasplasmosa, weak positive, which is why the doxycycline route was taken.

 

[Equi]

What an odd movement :/ I hope you can find out what’s causing it.

 

[SEL]

Odd - no wonder you're worried. Is there anything in the hedges or grazing she could be eating at this time of year? A friend lost a mare a few weeks ago who went totally neurological after gorging on a fir tree, despite access to hay.

I'm currently sweeping up horse chestnuts because something is eating them and I'm worried its a horse.

 

[AmyMay]

Has the head been X-rayEd?

 

[Irish-Only]

Has the head been X-rayEd?

No. I discussed this with my old vet who I trust completely, and his view was that because we could be looking for something neurological, even a scan would probably not show anything and we could be £1k poorer and no wiser.

 

[Irish-Only]

Odd - no wonder you're worried. Is there anything in the hedges or grazing she could be eating at this time of year? A friend lost a mare a few weeks ago who went totally neurological after gorging on a fir tree, despite access to hay.

I'm currently sweeping up horse chestnuts because something is eating them and I'm worried its a horse.

We have acorns and a fir tree that they can just about reach. Will fence off before turning out again. What I found interesting is that despite there being plenty of grass, if I put hay out she will eat that rather than the grass.
I’m really at a loss and wondering whether to keep in for a couple of months.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Perhaps stomach is blocked /overfilled and not emptying? My mare ran high temps, not eating…vets went through a variety of diagnosis..finally admitted to horspital to check out lung infection but on investigation it was hugely impacted none emptying stomach…we never found out why could ve been neurolgical/physical damage/environmental poisoning ?(this is a very abbreviated version of events).

 

[Birker2020]

Sorry if I've missed this but if the vet thinks neuro has he conducted neuro tests as they are pretty conclusive?. I can't see the link but assume she is ataxic.

You can opt for a myelogram where the horse is put under GA and a dye injected into the spinal cord to check for compression.

Watch the video. My horse used to do the same as yours, I assume it was due to neck.pain.

You can do your own neuro assesment, just do it on a soft surface and wear a hat.

 

[meleeka]

[QUOTE="Irish-Only, post: 15019512, member: 158995"
I’m really at a loss and wondering whether to keep in for a couple of months.[/QUOTE]

If the problem is seasonal it could be helpful to rule in/out what she’s eating.

 

[Irish-Only]

[QUOTE="Irish-Only, post: 15019512, member: 158995"
I’m really at a loss and wondering whether to keep in for a couple of months.

If the problem is seasonal it could be helpful to rule in/out what she’s eating.[/QUOTE]
I think this may be favourite at the moment, the one problem is she has a yearling for company who really needs to go out daily.
I’ve really got to check the fields again. We came from dry stone walls with hedges planted by us that were horse friendly.
One of the initial frustrations last year was the then vet clearly thought I was a neurotic pony patter. They are no longer my vet.

 

[Irish-Only]

Perhaps stomach is blocked /overfilled and not emptying? My mare ran high temps, not eating…vets went through a variety of diagnosis..finally admitted to horspital to check out lung infection but on investigation it was hugely impacted none emptying stomach…we never found out why could ve been neurolgical/physical damage/environmental poisoning ?(this is a very abbreviated version of events).

There were no problems with her gut, and she has subsequently recovered her appetite and condition. My worry is that the neuro head wobble has started again.

 

[SusieT]

you need a referral work up with x-rays/scopes etc not a 'best guess it won't find anything'

 

[PurBee]

The symptoms beginning with change of yards suggests something environmental - plant/tree toxins, grass/hay/haylage moulds. Toxins and moulds generally acutely affect the nervous system.

We tend to rule-out something environmental if just 1 horse is affected and no other equines on the yard show symptoms, but i’ve seen it myself with just my 2, i horse affected vastly more than another.

As your horse is grey, its worth considering/discussing photosensitivity/liver issues with vet. This is triggered by common alsike clover, birdsfoot trefoil weed, ryegrass has photosensitising agents, aswell as tetracycline antibiotics. St johns wort too. These are main ones horses are exposed to. However, a horse that has a liver condition, or damaged liver by ragwort, is at higher risk of photosensitising agents in plants affecting them, as the liver wont filter the PS compounds so effectively so they are in higher circulation in the blood causing cellular inflammation.

Another route of PS could be initial poisoning by a plant toxin or mould, that causes liver/gut distress, and due to being grey, they are then at risk of secondary PS, while the liver is impaired by toxin caused by X.

My grey is affected by this and cant have 100% ryegrass haylage due to it. There’s no alsike clover in my fields, or predominant ryegrass grazing. So i wonder if the yard switch has your horse consuming more of these plants/grasses, than previous yard?

Head-shaking is one if the presentations for photosensitivity. Your video looks more neuro/plant toxin than PS, but each horse is different with symptoms presented for PS, so thought it worth mentioning. Loss of appetite/colic is common with PS - my gelding initially presented with that. I hopped on the issue and changed the 100% ryegrass haylage to mixed grass/timothy.

Horse preferring hay to grass is weird, i’d really inspect the grazing plants and i.d the varieties. I talk about clover a lot on here as horses are very susceptible to them in a variety of ways, and sadly, cow pastures are purposefully sown with lots of clover, so horses finding themselves on an ex-cow farm can suffer with those fields of ryegrass and clover leys.

You could try turning out at night and keeping it during the day to prevent U.V exposure to the horse, see if that makes any difference. If PS is a secondary issue, keeping-in should improve things within days.

 

[Birker2020]

You can get something called Ryegrass Staggers, I think its called grass tetany. Caused by bacteria entering the seed heads. As the name suggests it causes them to become ataxic.

It affects horses as well as sheep and cows.

 

[nutjob]

A horse I had years ago developed a weird type of head shaking. It resolved temporarily with steriods but I later found he had a very serious liver problem. I cannot see liver function tests in the blood screen you have posted (AP, GGT, AST, GLDH). Has your vet run them?

 

[tristar]

i would take off the grazing she is on, if she was on the same as last year,? too much of a coincidence

or bring in for a few days

we had one eating buttercups, who was unwell for 2 days last year, this year was kept off them, we knew because all the other had a few B C `s but he did not

 

[w1bbler]

You mention ticks, have you considered another tick related illness- louping ill?

 

[clairebearfur1]

I would try moving her for a few weeks if possible to another yard / field to rule rule out something in your old field?

 

[Irish-Only]

I would try moving her for a few weeks if possible to another yard / field to rule rule out something in your old field?

She’s such a sensitive soul that would really upset her if I wasn’t around 24/7.

 

[Irish-Only]

Purbee thanks for this. Last year I trawled the field trying to identify anything that may be the cause. We walked around again yesterday and have identified a fir tree dropping its cones so we will fence that off. I have always fed meadow hay/Haylage but around here people are happy to feed ryegrass Haylage and although we tried it decided it was not for us and the horses agreed! We have some lovely meadow hay now.
Other than the fir tree there doesn’t seem to be any other plants that would cause concern. The previous owner kept horses here for 30 years with no problems, but we do intend to spray the ground as it is very poor for grass and lots of the usual horse ground weeds. We have always kept on top of ragwort and thankfully there is very little here.
I do think that you are right in that there is something that she has/is eating and the original vet was sidetracked by the anaplasmosis report as I have never thought we really got to the bottom of the cause. I am keeping her off the land by putting her in the arena with a haynet and the yearling can then still go out in the field that neighbours it and they are both happy. If you have any further ideas/suggestions they will be very welcome.
I don’t know if I put this on previously.
CLINICAL COMMENTS

Elevated SAA indicative of an inflammatory focus, with the neutropaenia more suggestive of an acute process. The mild elevations in AST and bilirubin mostlikely represent mild hepatocullar damage secondary to the reported hyporexia,but ongoing monitoring of the liver parameters is recommended.


Haematologist Comment Minimum manual platelet count 60-75, overall numbers appear slightly reduced
Fibrinogen * 5.33 g/L High (2.0 -4.0 )

CLINICAL COMMENTS

Evidence of ongoing inflammation, given elevations in SAA and fibrinogen, and developing neutropaenia. Platelet numbers appear borderline between adequate to slightly reduced, with close monitoring recommended given the reported history of petechial haemorrhage.

 

[PurBee]

Purbee thanks for this. Last year I trawled the field trying to identify anything that may be the cause. We walked around again yesterday and have identified a fir tree dropping its cones so we will fence that off. I have always fed meadow hay/Haylage but around here people are happy to feed ryegrass Haylage and although we tried it decided it was not for us and the horses agreed! We have some lovely meadow hay now.
Other than the fir tree there doesn’t seem to be any other plants that would cause concern. The previous owner kept horses here for 30 years with no problems, but we do intend to spray the ground as it is very poor for grass and lots of the usual horse ground weeds. We have always kept on top of ragwort and thankfully there is very little here.
I do think that you are right in that there is something that she has/is eating and the original vet was sidetracked by the anaplasmosis report as I have never thought we really got to the bottom of the cause. I am keeping her off the land by putting her in the arena with a haynet and the yearling can then still go out in the field that neighbours it and they are both happy. If you have any further ideas/suggestions they will be very welcome.
I don’t know if I put this on previously.
CLINICAL COMMENTS

Elevated SAA indicative of an inflammatory focus, with the neutropaenia more suggestive of an acute process. The mild elevations in AST and bilirubin mostlikely represent mild hepatocullar damage secondary to the reported hyporexia,but ongoing monitoring of the liver parameters is recommended.


Haematologist Comment Minimum manual platelet count 60-75, overall numbers appear slightly reduced
Fibrinogen * 5.33 g/L High (2.0 -4.0 )

CLINICAL COMMENTS

Evidence of ongoing inflammation, given elevations in SAA and fibrinogen, and developing neutropaenia. Platelet numbers appear borderline between adequate to slightly reduced, with close monitoring recommended given the reported history of petechial haemorrhage.

It sounds odd she’s suffering with the grazing if its been a horse farm for so long.

I have a gelding as a youngster nibbled most naughty trees/plants to experiment, causing me stress cutting everything down! But as an adult he’s far less curious and leaves fir trees/cones/laurel/rhododendron etc. But i understand some horses develop a taste for toxic stuff, like acorns, and will gorge, so maybe she has found a toxic bush or tree overhanging the fence that she’s got fixated with?

The only thing i can suggest is inspecting your mixed meadow hay with a fine tooth comb for dodgy weeds. The very first batch of hay i bought for horses at home was loaded with ‘cats ear’ that causes neuro stringhalt in horses - it looks like dandelion. That batch of hay got me interested in toxic plants for equines. I’ve had all sorts in hay and haylage, even sycamore seeds in a reputable brand of haylage! Im sure youve already looked through it and there’s nothing obviously toxic, like ragwort etc. The most toxic weeds will present with a thick stem in hay. If you have lots of clover in your hay, i would be cautious about that specifically due to its propensity, when mature, for known equine mycotoxic/neurological effects.

There is another poster on here who has recently been struggling with mycotoxins in her grazing fields, that have caused liver damage. The only main symptom that started her investigations was 1 horse losing weight. Liver blood results showed issues, liver damage. She got her other horses tested, they had the same high liver enzymes, and damage occurring. She got her grass tested by a well-known lab (name escapes me right now!) but those tests of her grazing confirmed grass mycotoxins from funguses.
It seems her grazing was left growing long, although a small herd of sheep was grazing there, i asked about state of fields. Funguses love old thatch, long moist grass to grow at the base of grasses. Fungus will take over old long grasses as the natural process of decomposing it. So with such fields, horses, which tend to be close grazers, searching for fresh leaves low down in long grass, are exposed to the spores of such common funguses.
These myctoxins range in the symptoms presented, with neurology often affected.

Here’s the thread, you may find some ideas and insights about other aspects to consider for your horse, such as feeding milk thistle, mycotoxin binders/activated charcoal/kaolin clay - which all help to remove toxins from the gut/blood, and help the liver:

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/have-i-poisoned-all-of-my-horses.812061/

I have been reforming my own land for a few years, as there’s a known ergot fungus toxin thats prevalent here in damp west ireland, especially now in early autumn, that takes over seed heads of grasses, mainly affecting tall fescue and ryegrass seed heads. It was the discovery of that, that took my horse owning journey on a tangent to land management issues. Rejeuvenating land to make it safe for grazing is quite enthralling to me now, but its also scary for us horse owners, how fungus borne mycotoxins affect horses so much, compared to other common grazing species. So its essential we keep the grazing as clear of old grass/rotting materials as possible.

As you are considering spraying-off your weeds, you might also consider applying a soil-bacterial ‘fertiliser’ afterwards to increase your grazing soil health, that i’ve only just discovered is available commercially. Soil microbiology is receiving a lot of attention in the agri-industry of late and many field tests have been conducted. Essentially, if the bacteria in the soil are thriving, they are the workers of our soil, that give grass/plants the nutrients out of the soil. Without a healthy soil bacterial level, we have to apply high level of fertilisers etc. Unfortunately many agro-chemicals destroy soil bacteria, and acidic NPK fertilisers destroy bacteria too - so we end up farming with a deficit of these bacterial workers, thus needing more fertilisers, and suffer plant disease/poor growth/ poor root growth.
The great thing about applying soil bacteria is that we buy a small amount and it will treat many acres. This company ill link to supply 1 kg bags of bacterial powder, that gets added to water, and provides enough bacteria for 10 acres. The cost of 1kg is €300 which is the cost of npk or organic fertiliser for just 2-4 acres.
There’s some interesting vides on their website of farmers who’ve tried it:

https://www.supersoil.ie/

I hope your mare shows improvement soon from being off the grazing. If it is mycotoxins the improvement could be slow, so worth adding milk thistle, myco-binders, charcoal/clay to some sloppy speedibeet or similar to help speed up recovery. (Dont feed charcoal or kaolin clay at the same time as powdered minerals/herbs as the charcoal and clays will absorb them and prevent them being absorbed into the gut. See charcoal and clay like sponges, that absorb nasties out of the gut.)

But don’t discount the hay, there may be something not easily seen, and is giving her a drip-feed of toxins.

 

[Irish-Only]

I'm resurrecting this post. Third autumn and we have the neuro behaviour back so can only conclude that it is something in the field in the autumn. I've googled for hours trying to find out if acorns or oak leaves can cause this to no avail (I found her and her little friend making a beeline for the acorns that are now fenced off). For the time being they are restricted to the yard, we have a different supply of meadow hay that smells and looks lovely, and have added milk thistle to the diet. Three different vets have found nothing, and all confirmed that I carry on riding as she shows absolutely no symptoms under saddle. Feed is very natural, grass nuts, grass chop and Bloom n sheen vit/mineral supplement.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Was Lymes ruled out originally?

This was my first thought as my now retired mare had Lymes, after a lot of tests and treatments she eventually recovered to a degree, but still with some residual long term problems. She is no longer a safe ride as her symptoms do suddenly reappear from time to time and my vet feels that as she can be extremely explosive during an episode the risk is too high that she might do so under saddle. Plus she does get very stiff in her movement when it flares again.

I hope you can get to the bottom of it, the frustration of not knowing what is going on makes it all so worrying I found.

 

[SEL]

I've no idea if you can test the land for mycotoxins but you could feed a binder and see if it helps