Totilas- is this a bit mean?

Not read any replies so sorry if I'm repeating!

Yes, I do feel sorry for the horse especially when I heard Edward Gal say something along the lines, 'we once let him out in the field and he went crazy, bucking and running around but we cannot risk him getting an injury'. Probably because he never goes out he got so excited!

Unfortunately, plenty high level horses are kept like this, but from the rider/owners point of view- a once in a lifetime horse, worth millions, top horse in the dressage world at the moment, top competitions lined up - can you really jeopardize Totilas career by putting him out in the field?

I do not agree with it btw, but there is always two sides to one story.
 
Totilas is NOT stuck inside 24/7, Edward himself said that he is taken out of the box FOUR times a day!!

I remember Laura B saying that Alf wasn't turned out either for the same reason as Totilas (completely crazy when loose). It's pretty much the norm at this level.

And please don't jump on dressage as a sport, most top showjumpers (at least on the continent) aren't turned out either.... Injuries do happen, when horses are working at that level it's pretty normal that the owners/riders just cannot afford to take the risk.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Totilas is NOT stuck inside 24/7, Edward himself said that he is taken out of the box FOUR times a day!!

I remember Laura B saying that Alf wasn't turned out either for the same reason as Totilas (completely crazy when loose). It's pretty much the norm at this level.

And please don't jump on dressage as a sport, most top showjumpers (at least on the continent) aren't turned out either.... Injuries do happen, when horses are working at that level it's pretty normal that the owners/riders just cannot afford to take the risk.
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Agree with the above.
 
aimeejay said:
Yes, I do feel sorry for the horse especially when I heard Edward Gal say something along the lines, 'we once let him out in the field and he went crazy, bucking and running around but we cannot risk him getting an injury'. Probably because he never goes out he got so excited!
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I don't know if we saw the same interview, but in the one I saw, Gal said that they had tried turning him out repeatedly and he always came in hurt. Some stallions do have a problem settling with other horses around them.
 
EAST KENT said:
Well in the new animal welfare laws it IS ACTUAL cruelty to prevent an animal having the conditions that ALLOWS it to express itself naturally. That is why in this country pig stalls were banned,and why battery hens will be banned in the near future. A horse needs the release of a good buck fart and squeal,those never turned out are never free to express themselves.As for "liking routine"..that`s called being "institutionised".

If we approve this lifestyle for equines..then how can you then disapprove of circuses?? Same difference...pen/work/pen.:mad:
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"Allowing to express itself naturally" is in many ways entirely incompatible with the domestication and use of the horse, so it is interpreted in law and common sense as one of many, possibly mutually constraining, requirements, not as an overriding consideration. Natural behaviour for a stallion is roaming over thousands of acres of territory with a herd of mares and youngsters, fighting off other stallions, breeding with all his mares, etc. Hardly anyone keeps domesticated stallions under these conditions.

As for 'institutionalising' a horse, all domestic animals are institutionalised in the sense that they are taught to behave within artificial constraints.

I still turn out all of my horses for as long as possible, but I do think that there are exceptions even to that rule that do not affect the welfare of the animal in question.
 
I agree - it is cruel - a stable is a cage with a fancy name, there would be an outcry if we kept a cat in those conditions yet it is excepted with a horse just because it's tradition and convenient! Size for size a battery hen probably has more space than these horses - it really annoys me when people say they are kept like kings so they must be happy - it doesn't matter wether you have a cage made of gold it's still a cage!! And to say they know no different is daft - they have had a few years as babies of normality and company then they are suddenly expected to live like this for the rest of their lives - horses have a pretty good memory so I'm sure they don't forget, and grazing in hand is no substitute for being loose - they can see grass, eat it etc but can't do what their instincts tell them!!

I think no horse is too valuable to be allowed to live it's life in as normal a way as possible, even if it means just half a day out and the rest in if they are worried about security, not just exist to make money. It doesn't take much to make a paddock safe enough to turn out a horse - if it's large enough it will do less damage as it has no tight turns - that's usually when they injure themselves. I can't blame the poor animal for going nuts though outside - if it's only been let out a few times of course it's going to go nuts!!! - I think I would!! I bet you if you left this guy out for a few weeks he'd soon settle and not act like a loon, although he's now probably so institutionalised at his age it's probably too late! - beautiful horse I really like him as he's really compact for a warmblood but I think it's awful the way these top animals/money making machines are kept!!:(
 
I used to think that no turnout was a bit mean but to be honest currently my horses get very little time out if any and none of them seem to suffer for it! They are all very fit and out hunting and competing once or twice a week. They go on the walker every morning when mucked out and if there's space they go out to play in the indoor or outdoor school with a mate. They are all very chilled out. I have a field but its quite a long way away (about 2 miles) so they tend to go on rotated holidays for a couple of weeks rather than daily turnout.
 
The wording of the law is 'freedom to express normal behaviour', not freedom to behave naturally. It does make a difference.
 
Too late to edit, but here is the exact wording:

(1)A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice.

(2)For the purposes of this Act, an animal's needs shall be taken to include—

(a)its need for a suitable environment,

(b)its need for a suitable diet,

(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,

(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and

(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

(3)The circumstances to which it is relevant to have regard when applying subsection (1) include, in particular—

(a)any lawful purpose for which the animal is kept, and

(b)any lawful activity undertaken in relation to the animal.

(4)Nothing in this section applies to the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner.
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Yes, horses can hurt themselves being turned out, but then didn't Balincoola die of a heart attack in the warm up arena? But people don't avoid warming up their top competition horses. There's a risk attached to everything we do.

It's not the way I would choose to keep a horse, anyway. But there we go.
 
It's not just a dressage thing either. I recently met a horse that was about to go to Burghley. He hadn't been allowed out in a field for two years :o

Poor thing was such a sweetie, he was begging to be let out of his stable.
 
Its not only top horses. !!!!!!

We have a livery yard not far from us that has about 80 liveries, the yard closes the grazing end of october and reopens it about April, the horses there have no grazing and are stuck in, l often read posts on here about people that have no winter grazing, l realise that these horses do get to go out during the summer but its no different in the winter to what happens to the top horses
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Totilas is NOT stuck inside 24/7, Edward himself said that he is taken out of the box FOUR times a day!!

I remember Laura B saying that Alf wasn't turned out either for the same reason as Totilas (completely crazy when loose). It's pretty much the norm at this level.

And please don't jump on dressage as a sport, most top showjumpers (at least on the continent) aren't turned out either.... Injuries do happen, when horses are working at that level it's pretty normal that the owners/riders just cannot afford to take the risk.
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But during these four times a day, that he is outside of his stable. Is there always a human with him, on the end of a lead rope? If so he is not expressing his normal horse behaviour. I can understand why they won't turn them out, we all risk our horses being injured when we turn them out, but we turn them out so they get to be a horse, so they have freedom, so they can interact with other horses in a herd, groom each other and so on. Being lead in hand munching some grass does not allow that. To me stretching his legs and running free are two very different things.

I understand fully why they are not allowed T/O but I do think it's wrong. Especially with eventing horses, where the owners are happy to risk a broken leg whilst eventing, but not in the field. Selfish comes to mind. Just my opinion and I will always feel this way regarding this matter. I know there would be uproar if it was a dog or cat kept caged except for walks in hand.

ETA I also feel the whole 'keeps getting injured' scenerio is quite convenient, perhaps it was once or twice but they just can't take the risk.
 
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I do think that this issue starts way before they turn into amazing grown up horses. Often in Europe horses are not turned out 24\7 from birth, normally because of the amount of horses bred compared to the amount of land available. Horses, like humans, develop social skills in the "playground" with other animals their own age, when this is not allowed to happen when they are turned out when older they dont know how to behave around others or cope with open spaces.

Maybe countries should be forced to look at their breeding policies, after all i am sure most on here would be against the puppy mills seen in america and in my opinion these horse breeders are no better.

I also think lack of turn out is a big reason for a lot of lameness issues and short life spans of competition horses, there are numerous physiologal benefits to allowing horses to walk around free, its not just about munching some grass and being grazed in hand is no comparison

Maybe competition horses would be calmer in the ring if managed how horses were "meant" to live (as close as possible) than stuck in a box and only ever allowed controlled freedom!
 
amymay said:
Pretty standard way to keep these animals, I'd imagine :(
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Agree with this. Imo this is in no way a decent quality of life for a horse. I am not saying they don't get looked after, they do very well. But I believe at the end of the day no matter what the horse is it should get out into a field.
 
Booboos said:
"Allowing to express itself naturally" is in many ways entirely incompatible with the domestication and use of the horse, so it is interpreted in law and common sense as one of many, possibly mutually constraining, requirements, not as an overriding consideration. Natural behaviour for a stallion is roaming over thousands of acres of territory with a herd of mares and youngsters, fighting off other stallions, breeding with all his mares, etc. Hardly anyone keeps domesticated stallions under these conditions.

As for 'institutionalising' a horse, all domestic animals are institutionalised in the sense that they are taught to behave within artificial constraints.

I still turn out all of my horses for as long as possible, but I do think that there are exceptions even to that rule that do not affect the welfare of the animal in question.
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As are humans, and if you stick a human in a cage and only let it out to do an hours hard graft and feed it a bit of chocolate 3 times a day then that human would probably find it difficult to cope with the big wide world!
 
the point at which your horse becomes too precious to risk injury and thus to turn out, is the point when your riding sucess determines whether you get paid or not! very few people on this board make their money from their horses, so very people will understand this.

i ,personally, also dont rely on my horse for my income(although i do train freelance in addition to the office job, and my sucess means more clients, so in a small way i do *need* my horse fit and sound to bring in money...) but he still goes out all day, every day, and will continue to do so as long as he is happy and settled whilst out.
he is never going to be worth what Totilas is, even if/when he gets to GP, so i doubt i will ever feel the need to keep him in.

Please dont tar all dressage riders with the same brush and please try and understand that sometimes its not the rider that calls the shots, its the owner(s) too, and that in business there is always the commercial aspect to consider. if you have run your own business you will know that the head must rule at all time.

I dont think Toto has a bad life-plenty of movement and grass albeit attached to a groom, is better than leisure horses that get turfed out to fend for themselves for weeks at a time, with cuts, slipped rugs, loose shoes etc by bored or busy amateurs.......
 
Koda said:
I was watching WEG recently and heard the commentator say that Totilas is worth x amount of millions and as a result is always kept indoors and does not go out to the field ever. Am I the only one who finds this very depressing? I feel really bad for the horse, I suppose cos I feel like he's not allowed BE a horse.

Anyone else think this is a bit mean to the poor guy? maybe it's just me...
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As I remember the commentator and his owner saying, was he does go out for a few hours a day, but any longer and he starts throwing his shoes and getting in all sorts of bother.
 
I think Carl sets a great example regarding turnout as I think all his horses go out. I heard him say that often it is the best way to keep them sound.

I personally don't care how much money a horse is worth I would always turnout but I do except at the very top level it is not alway a realistic option. Like others have said I know yards that have no winter turnout and where the horses may only be exercised once a day or not at all in some cases. At least these horses are getting plenty of variety and not just stood in 24/7.
 
A lot of Dressage riders dont keep the horses in 24/7 in this country.
BTW on the racehorse thing- I can think of trainers who 'train out of the field', basically their horses are out everyday. This seems to be a new fashion in the racing indusrty, and the yards I am thinking of haven't been doing too badly, and getting a few winners.
Also most NH/ all point horses have a holiday. Mine has been out all summer in a big 10 acre field with his mates. (what a life eh?) He is now in, though he had was out in the field a couple of times last week. Also at our (and a lot of other point yards) we do loads of roadwork and the horses do something different everyday. One day beach, other the fell, then roadwork, or hunting or gallops, or stubble field etc etc. Also we graze them in hand nearly everyday. We have got a 'retired' 4 year old who raced 10 times(!) on the flat as 2 year old. He goes out loads to learn to 'chill', and he is doing really well.
A lot of big yards (in any equestrian sport) are run a bit like factories which I think doesn't do the horses any favours.
 
Allover said:
As are humans, and if you stick a human in a cage and only let it out to do an hours hard graft and feed it a bit of chocolate 3 times a day then that human would probably find it difficult to cope with the big wide world!
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"As are humans" what? Sorry I don't get the comparison (domesticated? institutionalised?).

Horses are adaptable which is what allowed them to be domesticated in the first place. As has been mentioned already in the thread, Totilas leaves his stable 4 times a day, sometimes 5 when he is breeding and I don't think they feed him a bit of chocolate. "Coping with the big wide world" for a horse does not equate with being totally calm; energy, power and the kind of excitment that can cause injuries are perfectly natural expressions of the horse's character. In this case they channel his energy towards his work as his natural exhuberance leads to injuries in the field.
 
I spent quite a lot of time in Germany and it is very rare to see horses out in the fields around Munster, where they do a lot of breeding.
I remember seeing an article on a retired International German showjumper who is a well known breeder. His young horses are kept in large barns, with not a great deal of square footage per horse. What a lot of people don't realise, is that breeding horses in Germany and Holland is done on a very large scale, and the equivalent of factory farming. Freedom is totally beyond these horses experience. While people keep buying them, they will keep being produced in this way. It's big business!
 
I know someone who has a potential grand prix dressage horse and it got scared of a tree as he never saw one before! Seems a bit sad really and frightening, imagine his reaction to a bus or lorry!
 
Not all competition/racers are kept this way- at the yard where i work all the horses go out for about 6/8wk break over summer turned away in a herd- we then use small paddocks and after racing the next day they get a day out and at fairly regular intervals inbetween. Ok not for long and they go out seperatly (well booted!) but have contact over the fence with others and are all amazingly easy to catch and chilled out about coming back in again.
Yes they are worth a bit but on the other hand they need stimulation to keep their spirits up and therefore keep winning- I dont think there is really any excuse for NO turn out ever.
 
Here in America, it seems to vary from region to region, and discipline to discipline, as to whether horses receive turnout. Most often, horses are turned out individually or in twos, and only in lovely weather.

On the way back from my lesson, I drive past this beautiful "hunter/jumper" barn; it must be on 50-60 acres, with massive turnout pastures, yet I have never seen a single horse being turned out there. This seems all the more bizarre than the German method of keeping horses, for the pastures are there, although it seems some trainers would rather keep them looking pristine than actually use them.

Is the "Totilas at home" video in question (in German)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD6x-u5_9cc&feature=player_embedded
 
High level competition horses seem to be very stressed out and highly strung, a breeder of dutch warmbloods told me that talented horses will always be this way, I told them rubbish, its the way they are kept.
I think every effort should be made to allow these valuable horses to be just horses part of the day, and I think they would be more chilled because of it, its good for their sanity.

Someone mentioned Blue Hors Matinee and asked didn't she break a leg when turned out - I believe she did, but she was retired from competition and in foal.
I'm sure her foal would have been worth a lot of money - is this an excuse to stable all the time? She sure as hell couldn't be fully exercised being in foal, and certainly not ridden in the last 3/4 months at all.
To have not given her turnout would have been cruelty considering she also wouldn't have been exercised.
A sad loss, but at least her latter part of her life were spent in open space being what she was - a horse x
 
Carl Hester's horses are turned out once a week or put in a walker "as appropriate". At least I assume the post mentioning Carl's horses meant Mr Hester, could be wrong :o

The difference between serious hobbyists and those whose entire business relies on their horses being fit enough to compete/breed is their willingness to risk paddock injuries. Generally anyway, there's always an exception floating around somewhere. I do not necessarily agree with the way Totilas is kept I understand why they do it. Whilst we are all passionate about our horses we have to remember he is a working horse, they love him and he's special but he is not a pet, he is not a hobbyists passion but the result of careful breeding and training. Edward Gal obviously cares a great deal for him, not just because of his success, whilst the routine is not what we would pick for our horses but our horses are not our livelihoods. Nor do we own an exceptional dressage stallion that is being talked about worldwide.
 
prosefullstop said:
Here in America, it seems to vary from region to region, and discipline to discipline, as to whether horses receive turnout. Most often, horses are turned out individually or in twos, and only in lovely weather.

On the way back from my lesson, I drive past this beautiful "hunter/jumper" barn; it must be on 50-60 acres, with massive turnout pastures, yet I have never seen a single horse being turned out there. This seems all the more bizarre than the German method of keeping horses, for the pastures are there, although it seems some trainers would rather keep them looking pristine than actually use them.

Is the "Totilas at home" video in question (in German)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD6x-u5_9cc&feature=player_embedded
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Poor horses..that is just a glorified prison for horses
 
After some recent bad experiences I've sworn to avoid, where at all possible, riding horses that don't have regular turn out.

I understand that Totilas et al are worth a lot of money, but don't like the thought that keeping them stabled most of the time probably leads to x and y health problems, that need medicating, and also to temperament problems which might have to be solved with x or y bit or gizmo. It all seems counter productive.
 
It is very sad that Totilas can't be turned out. I can't help but think if he'd become accustomed to turn out from an early age he wouldn't have a hissy fit when he was let out. It is a shame but I agree, I wouldn't want to tar all dressage people with the same brush either, I know many dressage horses, some very serious ones, that get lots of turnout.

Also I think that racehorses never being turned out is rarely the case. Whilst in training they are often kept in, but they also get long periods of being turned away in a herd during their breaks in training which is imho strikes quite a good balance between the business need and the need of a horse.
 
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