Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..

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nativetyponies

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as i know yadda about the subject, but know a decent horse when i see one, WHY does T achieve such high marks when it cannot even track up in walk, let alone trot?

As i said, i know nothing about Stressage marking, but several animals walked far better than he does, yet everytime he was marked 8's/9's for his walk?

TBH it is pretty awful, isn't it?
 
yes I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of the horse at all, he moves oddly and you're right he doesn't track up! The other day he was moving in the piaffe and not stepping evenly behind in the passage as Carl said when he was commenting and he got 10's and 9's for that!!
 
I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive.

Personally, I think Laura Bechtolsheimer's Mistral Hojris is more of a 'correct' horse in front and behind - his action is far more equal. I am delighted she is doing so well :D
 
it's a shame really, as the spanish horse, the little grey Fuego, did a lovely expressive test and an extended trot that must be breathtaking to sit with, yet had only 6's/7's for his walk and it was really loose and fluid?
 
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R2R said:
I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive.
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He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....





psst.....don't tell, but he's known as Totalarse around here LOL
 
He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....
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It was very interesting to see a test done by him as a five year old - posted in CL a short time ago.

What a completely different horse he looked. Actually very attractive and normal looking........ And moving far more correctly.
 
Yep agreed. I dont like dressage (much) but what I will say is his popularity is doing amazing things for the sport AND he is very VERY striking...I wonder if Horjis was black if he would start beating him?!!
 
I think there could well be an element now of "its Totillas" so he will get marked higher - same as in high level showing when a good performer can have its past achievements influencing the decision on the day. Maybe Laura B will see the benefit of this too! This is not really a critisism as think thats really human nature.

But at the end of the day - I am a Totillas fan and whatever you think, that horse has stepped up the anti in dressage. I watched spellbound at Windsor and one thing that came through strongly was how soft Edward Gal and Totillas looked whereas there were a lot of other combinations that by contract looked quite forced. IMO the nearest rider to Edward Gal was a young german girl (shamefully can't remember her name) who rode beautifully. At the WEG I thought the riding looked a lot softer with nearly everyone and the test with Laura B was so elegant. Top level dressage is also a lot to do with showmanship - thats the extra 2% and Totillas has it in buckets but its good to see that the gap is now closing..
 
Mmm, agree his back end doesn't work as well as it could. Just like horses who are consistently worked in Rolkur every day.... scuttles away to hide...
 
R2R said:
I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive.

Personally, I think Laura Bechtolsheimer's Mistral Hojris is more of a 'correct' horse in front and behind - his action is far more equal. I am delighted she is doing so well :D
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Totally agree with you there, Mistral Hojris is much more correct and nicer to watch! Totilas didn't make me cry but they did!!
 
oh, i don't doubt T has done loads for the sport, but that alone shouldn't blind people to the fact that he isn't "correct" and his name alone shouldn't win classes... IMO
 
My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.
 
Tortilas' passage was amazing IMO, and he has wonderful natural rhythm, which adds to the specialness. I was suprised at the tens he got for other movements. I thought his canter pirouettes were much poorer than Mistral's, yet he got higher marks.

Fuego was amazing to watch, very dramatic,and obviously born to do those movements, but he looked very tense in places.

Many top people said that Laura should have won, including the american commentator, especially in the team event. I thought her test was beautiful to watch.. Pure elegance and accuracy. She looked such a nice person - always smiling, cooling down her horse, and like she loved him to bits.

Most of the tests were fantastic to watch - even for a non - dressage fan. The last three were magic!
 
he has amazing rhythmn which is what gets him a lot of the very high marks..people think he doesnt work from behind but its just because he is so expressive infront.. the last 5 were a class above...a lot of people just like to be 'different' in criticising totilas tbh
 
Jump2It said:
he has amazing rhythmn which is what gets him a lot of the very high marks..people think he doesnt work from behind but its just because he is so expressive infront.. the last 5 were a class above...a lot of people just like to be 'different' in criticising totilas tbh
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I am not trying to be 'different' by saying what I see, you dont have to like him!!!
 
What I find weird about him (and about some other top horses) is how little he lengthens through his frame in extensions - with Alf the whole frame is completely different in extensions, he's not just waving his legs about more! Leg mover anyone??
 
Caledonia said:
My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.
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I agree but then I'm a bit biased as an Andalusian owner> Fuego was just as expressive in front as Totilas if not more so but his backend matched his front.

I'm just very pleased that an Andalusian can play up there with the big boys!

I would have loved to have been able to see Adelinde Cornelissen though I think her horse is awesome.
 
Caledonia said:
My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.
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I quite like that test as well, though he had moments where he looked tense as well (or at least my uneducated eye thought so). I like his canter.

I've also now seen Totilas' test. Can I ask... what mark(s) did he get for his free walk?

Can I ask possibly another dumb question... when they show extended paces, what *should* it look like? I didn't think they were supposed to look like trotters but both horses (particularly Totilas IMHO) seem to be all knee action. I know bugger all about dressage but they seem to be cycling in front and not really moving forwards. Is this correct? We sometimes have a DR rider come to our yard to teach (I don't have lessons with her but have watched a few of them) and I have never seen her teach medium trot to look like this... I am confused!
 
Murf15 said:
What I find weird about him (and about some other top horses) is how little he lengthens through his frame in extensions - with Alf the whole frame is completely different in extensions, he's not just waving his legs about more! Leg mover anyone??
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Agree. I think this is the question I have asked in my post below, though rather less eloquently and succinctly than you!
 
chestnut cob said:
Agree. I think this is the question I have asked in my post below, though rather less eloquently and succinctly than you!
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Yes! Alf is what they should look like IMO. You sometimes see Laura gathering in handfuls of rein at the end of an extension (much more elegantly than I ever gather in my reins, obviously :D), whereas the most I see with Totilas is EG's hands moving an inch or two. I don't really like it.
 
I do like Totilas but I can see why people don't tbh. For me, I cannot make my mind up whether the front end is SO expressive that it makes it look like he is not through properly or whether he really is less active behind :confused:

His piaffe is the best I have seen on a non Iberian - so many of the warmbloods just cannot perform this movement properly - he does and does it well.

I agree that Laura deserved to win, her horse is just so much more correct. There is without doubt a 'Totilas' factor and we are in danger of judges being scared to mark this horse down, he did a good test no doubt about it, I preferred both Laura's and the spanish horse (no surprise there then :D).

Fuego did brilliantly to get such a high place, but listening to Nicky Barrett commentating was interesting, she made some very good points and I wish the judges could have heard them. Basically a lot of dressage judges have no idea how to judge these Iberians, they ARE shorter in the neck than a warmblood and judges need to stop using the wamblood as a yardstick - but then that is a whole different thread! :D

I do have a bugbear with Laura - she is FAR too young and pretty :D:D:D
 
I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked!

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan.

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse.

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end.

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.
 
asterid said:
I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked!

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan.

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse.

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end.

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.
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I am proud that we are saying the same thing...you are more clever at it than me though!!!
 
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