Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..

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Diagonal dissociation (DAP) has been proven to be a characteristic of all top dressage horses. A lot of people actually consider it a positive trait! Try and read Dr Hilary Clayton's research into this. It's got nothing to do with training, it's just the way the horses move.

Here's a picture of Alf, a most classically-trained horse - yet the same diagonal dissociation we've seen in Totilas:

hi ,can you be so kind to explain what DAP is ?
also my instructor nearly pulled me off & kicked me for developing a 4 beat canter on my horse ,do you mean the canter needs to be 4 beat to develope a piroette ?
sorry for being thick :o i'm just interested ;)

as for totilas ,he took my breath away the first time i seen him and i do enjoy watching him but i did think lauras team test was better however i think totilas upped his game last night.
i also was puzzeled by the marking though i didn't think he deserved some of those 10s and do think it is a bit "oh its totilas 10"
but i am british so obviously i thought laura should have won ;)

doe's any one want to admit that if he was british bred and flying our flag that he would of course be wonderful ;) :p
 
angelish said:
hi ,can you be so kind to explain what DAP is ?
also my instructor nearly pulled me off & kicked me for developing a 4 beat canter on my horse ,do you mean the canter needs to be 4 beat to develope a piroette ?
sorry for being thick :o i'm just interested ;)

does any one want to admit that if he was british bred and flying our flag that he would of course be wonderful ;) :p
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From Dressage America's Glossary of Judging Dressage Terms:

Dissociation, Diagonal Dissociation (Also diagonal Advanced Placement or DAP) The hooves of a diagonal pair of limbs ( in trot or canter) do not contact the ground at the same moment.
1. Positive Dissociation - the hind hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in canter pirouette and racing gallop - 4 beats.)
2. Negative Dissociation - the front hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in lazy, constrained, or disorganized canter - 4 beats).

As for the canter pirouette: canter (with the exception of pirouettes) should always be three beat, so your trainer is right; however, it is physically impossible for the horse to perform a canter pirouette in a true three beat rhythm.
 
I don't think my views are to do with me being english! Obv I would have liked Laura to get the gold, but I don't think her individual performance was as good as her team one. What I'm not very keen on is Totilas getting 10s for movements that really don't look like a 10. If everyone is graded fairly then the one who wins is just fine by me, I just feel that Totilas gets 10s because of who he is rather than the movement seen on the day. I think Laura's team performance would have beaten Totilas' indivudual one, but I do agree with the placings, just not the scores given (iyswim?!).
 
But has anyone seen the movement by movement marks? Because I am sure nobody can question the five 10s for Edward's riding.........nor the ones for the passage, or for the transitions.
 
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I thought in the team test his transition from piaffe to passage and back again looked odd, I'm sure at one point he had both inside legs in the air at the same time, I might have to go back and have another look but he definitely did something strange with his legs! I think he got 10's all the same..
 
glosgirl said:
I don't think my views are to do with me being english! Obv I would have liked Laura to get the gold, but I don't think her individual performance was as good as her team one. What I'm not very keen on is Totilas getting 10s for movements that really don't look like a 10. If everyone is graded fairly then the one who wins is just fine by me, I just feel that Totilas gets 10s because of who he is rather than the movement seen on the day. I think Laura's team performance would have beaten Totilas' indivudual one, but I do agree with the placings, just not the scores given (iyswim?!).
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i agree , i didn't think he deserved some of them 10s (but i am only qualfied to judge prilim & novice :p)
i didn't mean your views in particular ,its just some people seem to be very anti totilas and are getting there knickers in a twist about it ;)
 
As someone who knows absolutely nothing about dressage I am pleased that I am not the only one who didn't think his test was perfect, I think Laura and her Chestnut did a much nicer test and really should have got the Gold.
 
Seahorse said:
yes I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of the horse at all, he moves oddly and you're right he doesn't track up! The other day he was moving in the piaffe and not stepping evenly behind in the passage as Carl said when he was commenting and he got 10's and 9's for that!!
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ditto this ^^

R2R said:
Yep agreed. I dont like dressage (much) but what I will say is his popularity is doing amazing things for the sport AND he is very VERY striking...I wonder if Horjis was black if he would start beating him?!!
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I would agree with this too! ^^

Luci07 said:
I think there could well be an element now of "its Totillas" so he will get marked higher
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OH thought that last night too...

IMO - his paces aren't correct. several people will say that's rubbish, but I was always taught that a correct extension is one where the canon bones stay parallel, and MT's don't.. he over extends the front leg compared to the work the hind is doing. He doesn't really step when doing piaffe, and his extended canter just sped up rather than actually extended IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I like the was Edward Gal rides, but I do wonder how he'll do without MT putting him in the spotlight.

ETA - agree with 3beasties above too!
 
You are so right FrodoBeutlin. Totilas is very classically correct in piaffe and passage, he has fabulous rhythm and impulsion and he is so supple and elastic. His rider has a lovely forward feeling contact and you don't see him pulling back which shows the self carriage. Of course his paces are more expressive than when he was 5. As the horse becomes more trained he takes more weight onto his hind legs which lightens the forehand and frees the shoulders. The more this happens, the more "out infront of the rider" the horse becomes. That is the idea of dressage. Like any being there are some relative weaknesses such as the changes but they are improving and are still fairly high scoring because of the suppleness, contact, etc. Laura's horse is also fabulous but there is weakness in the changes too. That doesn't mean they can't still be fairly good (7).

Stephen Clarke is the judge from GB. Not only is he one of the most respected judges in the world, but his integrity is second to none and he is not afraid of others' opinions. He certainly would not "name judge". How many of those who are critical of the judges know how many marks there are and where they come. This can make a huge difference to a result and from a television camera we do not have the view that the judge has so other factor like straightness are not so noticeable. Judging is not black and white like show jumping. The Spanish horse performed the movements with a lot of energy and enthusiasm but sometimes the regularity and balance was lost and some tension led to lack of suppleness.

I agree that Totilas had some tension in the team test which allowed Laura to get close but he was very good in the special. Alf did his better test in the Grand Prix although the special had some real highlights. For those that say Totilas automatically wins, he has been beaten by Parcival this year.
 
Why isn't there a crying-with-laughter smilie when you need one?! :p
And how can anyone seriously be arguing that Laura's test, great though it was, was better than Edward Gal's?
S :D

PS I'm only using first name terms because I can't spell Laura's name! :p
 
I think what appears to be happening as the horse 'develops' is the naturally expressive paces are becoming almost grotesquely exaggerated, leading to a very bizarre looking range of gaits. I do think his passage is about the best of his paces but the rest are now looking very odd. I far preferred Laura's horse's consistency throughout the test and I think the caricature which Totilas seems to have become is a sad result of his willingness and natural ability to perform. It isn't his fault he has been turned into this. I don't dislike him - how can you dislike such a trier - although I wouldn't want him as a sire.
 
I thought they both looked very lovely. But then I know nothing about such things.

All I could notice in Laura's test (again 1st name as her 2nd is too hard to spell :) ) was that I could constantly see her hand moving and pulling at his head. Didn't anyone else see that. Don't suppose it effects the test much but it wasn't pretty. I sort of got transfixed by it and couldn't see anything else!

Think I have learned more about stressage from this thread than I have in the last 25 years of being around horses. That's shameful isn't it?!

Thought it was lovely that she warmed the horse down herself though rather than palming him off to someone else.
 
Just a comment on the warming down, I have attended a few international events and watched the warm up/warm down and in all cases all the riders warmed there horses down themselves afterwards by trotting (rising) and walking around long and low after the test, this is the norm you just don't normally see it on camera!
 
no way expert or anything
IMHO i think the issue is he cant really physically match the front to the back.
i mean he is just SO free in the shoulder and amazingly extravagant in front, whereas his hind legs are limited by the fact his body is the way!
his submission, suppleness, rhythm and relaxation are just amazing for a horse that moves so much.....
and his piaffe and passage are just awesome!and the transitions are so so good.
for me his real weakness are the changes. BUT he is only 10 so im sure he will improve with them.
i think he is an amazing horse
 
Shilasdair said:
Why isn't there a crying-with-laughter smilie when you need one?! :p
And how can anyone seriously be arguing that Laura's test, great though it was, was better than Edward Gal's?
S :D
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Exactly what she said ^^^^^I have been trying to say this all day long on this thread and deleting my responses because they contained too many swear words, but thank you Shilasdair!
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Of course Angelish!! It's only in the UK that I've read people saying Alf should have got the gold ;) I think it's natural, a bit of nationalism is inevitable!
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:D :D
Sore losers? US? :p
I think it is a huge shame that so many are obcessing about her not getting the gold when what she did get is an achievement and a half for the brits.....


As for Totilas,I am very much in two minds about him.
I love watching him perform although some bits make me wince a little :o However I don't know enough about GP movements to commet on the correctness-I will allways be looking through a fans eyes.
What we want to see is not always the same as what the judge will see.
What we value is not always what the international judge is looking for.
 
I have been lucky enough to have seen Totilas at both Olympia and Windsor. The atmosphere he creates during his Kur is breathtaking and is unique.
Is it technically and ergonomically correct? No.
Would he move like he does if he had been trained in the UK? Probably not.
Is he therefore a product of nurture or nature?
If nurture, I hope he doesnt break to soon.
 
I agree that his back end looks hindered by his front end. i think its a case of would the judges prefer a less extravagant horse with more accurate paces or a more extravagant horse with a little hindered over track.
I also think his walk is little to be desired, though looking at some of the others there walk isn;t great with little overtrack? dont know whats up with that!
My favourite (other than alf of couse) was a little andulsian horse for the spanish team (dont know what name) he just looked expressive without lookiing unnatural and really lovely flowing paces and looked really comfortable doing everything!
i think some of it with totilas is that he is SO different to everything else, people and judges dont really know what to do with it but it makes you go wow so they assume it is good :P
 
Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we??? How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level? I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch). Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
 
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