Totilas Stud Fee 5,000 - 5,500

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Thanks LHS I did think it was rather an agressive reply too!

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I want to point out that Totilas is 5000-5500 euros not pounds but a little afraid i'll get my head bitten off
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if they really were mainly interested in getting the best mares they would have a lower stud fee and just approve which mares get inseminated.


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And imagine how many mare owners you could offend doing that!
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Obviously NO (sensible) mare owner would want to breed ANY foal from a sub-standard mare; the fact so many do suggests that many mare owners look at their mares wearing rose-tinted spectacles. 5,000 euros will discourage a LOT of owners of sub-standard or unproven mares.

For that sort of stud fee, I would only consider Totilas for mares who had competed to HIGH level successfully, whose breeding was excellent, and who had already produced at LEAST one foal that had sold for £9,000+ at weaning. And I'd hope that the Totilas 'name' would make the foal worth at LEAST £12,000 at weaning!
 
Totilas stud fee is in EURO's not pounds and as said above by Faberge, Donnerhalls stud fee is in Euro's too, I think what is meant is Donnerhall is PROVEN therefore will warrent a 4000Euro stud fee and Totilas is unproven so why pay up to 1500euros more for a stud fee.
Also I agree with Halfstep that many big studs in holland probably have a list of mares lined up to use him......The differece is tho Halfstep these are BIG studs that can afford this kind of stud fee and even if they get a rubbish foal they can afford to sell it at a loss (if they need to!).
 
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I want to point out that Totilas is 5000-5500 euros not pounds but a little afraid i'll get my head bitten off
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*runs*

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I was going to say that too but then thought it might be more provocative so glad someone else said it!
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Whats the point of your post ????

Faberge was only trying to be helpful by highlighting another expensive stud fee

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Are you an anal german by chance

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Thanks LHS I did think it was rather an agressive reply too!

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LHS implied I was an anal German. Anal means meticulous not aggressive but since you think my response was aggressive please point me to which part was aggressive? The part where I asked what was the point of you giving an example of a far superior stallion whose fee is significantly lower than this unproven sire? Please do enlighten me and are you saying that Germans are aggressive?

For your information I am not German. English is not my first language. I apologise if it is not up to your standard.
 
I have no issues with your English. I just think the tone of your posts can come accross as quite confrontational and I do not get involved in fights on forums. You are of course welcome to your own opinions, that is what we are all on here for.
 
think i would stick with gribaldi, he is a snip at £1800 or is it euros?? and he is proven. guess we will wait for his foals to hit the ground.
 
tbh if i had a good mare that i knew was proven with frozen i would pay the 5000/5500 stud fee, but i am and always will be a risk taker, with a very understanding other half :-). I too thought his stud fee would have been a lot higher and i do beleive his offspring will recoup their costs. The foal would definitley be bred to sell, but alas i dont have a suitable mare and at this present moment in time do not want anymore mares.

And with reference to the donnerhall semen, 4000 euro a dose, but very very poor quality, have been toying with that idea for a while too
 
I have to agree with touchwood.

It is a lot of money for a stallion with no foals on the ground. Nobody knows the sort of horse he would produce. Just because he is special it does not mean his foals will be.

As Gribaldi is one of my all time favourite stallions I would rather use him. He has proven that he can produce exceptional foals.
 
The reason some breeders will use Totilas rather then his sire Gribaldi is that Totilas should be an improvement on his sire. After all is that not what breeding is all about improving on the next generation? The offspring will only be as good as the producers. No amount of breeding is going to get a horse to the Olympics if the ground work is not there.
 
Blitzen, totillas and WH Justice are totally comparable, they are both business assetts, regardless of their competetive sphere. Everyone who is griping get over it, why should everyone have a right to use who they like on what they like, standing a stallion at stud is about making money, if you can't afford it then use a stallion you can afford. I could'nt justify using justice at such expense so i waited a while and used the best son of his in the uk, did it work out - yes, did it see me save a huge amount - yes, will i recoup my money should i sell - yes, BUT the dam of the filly is also exceptional so some of that praise must go to her.
 
I can imagine if you are a continental breeder that has elite mares - i.e from a very long mare line consistently producing international competitors and approved stallions, then 5000 Euros could pay off in terms of selling the foal for a lot more than that at the foal shows/auctions - IF the foals turn out ok. They may not. Look at Blue Hors Doolittte - 'hot' young sire - licenscing champion yet was pulled from Blue Hors stallion roster this year for dissapointing foals.

Also, I would want to know as with Painted Black - was Totilas ever put forward for stallion licensing - if so why was he turned down? His approval is based on performance not via the traditional route of inspection. That's fine - he is obviously an exceptional competitor - but if he ever was turned down at licensing I would like to know why (though he may simply never have been put forward)
 
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Isn't it funny how in the sports world we think that is high yet in racing it is nothing for a horse of this calibre. Has he any foals on the ground to back up the fee? Thats the difference a racehorse will have stock on the track 3yrs from covering his mares, so you can have a better inclination as to the justification for his fee. Will Totilas offspring recoup the stud fee, 1st batch more then likely. They will be professionally produced & given every opportunity to suceed, so there will be no excuse if he does not make a great sire.

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RE the racing thing. A top racehorse can win a million quid in a year so no doubt they use that as reason behind the huge stud fees! I don't follow dressage at all, but i have recently looked at some of the prizemoney they can expect to win at FEI GPs for example, and it's a hell of a lot less than i was expecting
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Hickstead was turned down by the KWPN during his inspection, so even if Totilas and Painted Black were turned down as youngsters, thats perfectly acceptable because even the best in the world make mistakes.

As for Totilas himself, if I was a Dressage breeder, then I would use him in a heartbeat if I could afford. You breed the best to the best and hope for the best. Right now and for the forseeable future, he is the best regardless of what people might say to shatter his image.

When I first heard he was gonna stand at stud I was expecting to see a stud fee of about 7,500 euros.

It might be worth noting that I saw a website advertising Hickstead for 15,000 dollars
 
Personally I am not a fan of Totilas, while I think he is amazing to watch, there is too much in front and not enough behind.
I know most of this is through training but I cant see how they can expect this sum from a unproven stallion, except that people will pay on Totilas record. I only hope he produces the goods.
 
I don't like Gribaldi, so I don't know how I feel about using Totilas unless his first crop of foals prove to be outstanding. It is a lot of money for an unproven stallion, but as Halfstep has pointed out, he is as close to the 'perfect dressage horrse' that I think we have ever seen!

Having said that, I do feel excited to see what he produces. Perhaps if I had the money (ie. money were no object like) and the type of mare he would compliment, I would be tempted!

I wonder if anyone will use him in the UK?
 
I think they will be lining up to use him just through the name. There are many very wealthy people in horses who will pay just to have a ' pop' and see what they get.

When selling, the sire being Totillas will be enough to command interest from people who buy on pedigree alone without waiting years to see it under saddle.
 
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Personally I am not a fan of Totilas, while I think he is amazing to watch, there is too much in front and not enough behind.
I know most of this is through training but I cant see how they can expect this sum from a unproven stallion, except that people will pay on Totilas record. I only hope he produces the goods.

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I would have to agree with you there imafluffybunny. If you get a chance to see him on his own moving, without the influence of his rider, then you will realise just how 'normal' his movement is. Edward Gal is a master at putting suspension and elevation into his riding. He is a genius at getting a horse to work its shoulders, giving spectacular foreleg height and reach. Totalis is a product of outstanding riding ability and training, it truly is Edward that deserves all the glory for producing such world class performances.

I believe that you will probably get a very nice foal, the bloodlines suggest you will, but I doubt, unless you get Edward to train and ride it, that his offspring will live up to his achievements.

Time will tell.
 
Dressage youngsters have always fetched more then other sports horses so it will be interesting to see what his offspring do make at the sales. Im another who if I had the money/facilties/mare would be using him, & not just because he is black!

He has made dressage sexy, he has has the blood lines. And despite Gribaldi only coming 11th in his stallion test in Ermello with scores of 7.5 trot, & 8 for walk & canter the comments were "He is an honest, reliable, steady stallion willing to work & allows himself to be worked well. He has a big, active walk but in the trot he should bring the hind leg underneath more. The canter has good scope & power & he carrier himself well. As a dressage horse, Gribaldi has a lot of talent & give his rider a good feeling" - If Totilas is an improvement on his sire then his stud fee could well be justified.
 
Here is my two pennies worth, just for interest's sake... I think what they're doing is very intelligent salesmanship on a number of levels...

1) The high stud fee means that breeding is much more lucrative for them, and it's not as if they won't get the mares. Terms like "limited" breedings etc. make it seem much more exciting, and like it's urgent that those people who can afford to get in line to breed from him.

2) The high stud fee also means that all over the world, on forums, at shows, at yards... people are saying "Did you see that Totilas is available at stud?! 5000 euros! Crazy/ridiculous/etc." This means he is being talked about, keeping up his profile, and making sure that breeders hear about him being available.

3) Even those breeders that can afford to use him will only want to use him on their VERY BEST mares... those who have performed to the highest level, and are consistently producing top quality foals. That means his first crop will almost undoubtedly appear to be pretty spectacular. You quite often see OKish stallions being used on top notch mares, and they will normally produce nice youngstock... the mares they are used on help to create the illusion of a superstar stallion. So imagine what sort of crop he will have!?

4) So next year we see a first crop of foals on the ground all out of superstar mares, and as a result all the youngstock are... well... pretty awesome, I would expect. So then everyone says "wow! look at the youngstock he throws!" and those who didn't want to use him first time (because he was unproven) are pretty convinced and want to use him...

5) Now the owners probably drop his stud fee a little and make him more available. His useage flies up, and he keeps producing decent youngstock because of the sheer numbers of mares he is being bred to.

That's how I see their plan, and it makes perfect commercial sense to me... what do you guys think?
 
I'd love to use him on my mare. But almost certainly won't! My mare is a Trak from the best motherline (according to the German inspectors) available in the Trak breed at the moment and she finished top of her age group at the Futurity. She's going really well under saddle and has a hind leg that is more active than her front ones. She + Totilas might just produce something mouthwateringly gorgeous.

Which sort of underlines what Andypandy has posted. Breeders are going to send their best mares to him so he should produce outstanding foals and then he'll get a name for producing outstanding foals and the whole thing becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
I have read in the horsey press that Totilas will only be available through three agents in the Netherlands, his semen is currently being analysed in a laboratory, and that mares will be selected from an application process so that only the most suitably matching mares (performance/bloodlines etc) will be considered, so the price is irrelevant unless you have a well proven mare.
 
I agree with AndyPandy
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I felt it was only a matter of time before he was avaliable following his KWPN approval. The most wealthy people I have known have also been the most greedy (sorry to the wealthy peeps out there - not meaning to offend) and they will make plenty of money from his semen sales. Even a smallish number - say 50 mares - for his first crop still gives a pretty good return....... The continental breeders with top mares should also make a good return at the foal shows/auctions. At the end of the day everyone's happy
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i think its worth it he is a superstar if you only got half his ability and athletisism you would have a great dressage horse ... its a shame hes not a showjumper i'd use him coz he's so much better than anything else...... its all a gamble!!
 
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