mbequest
Well-Known Member
The dutch newspapers and tv news have started referring to Totilas as the Usain Bolt of horse sport due to his attitude tio breaking world records......
What do you reckon,
What do you reckon,
Totilas = Usain Bolt???
- Thread starter mbequest
- Start date
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i reckon UB is an amazing athlete, who has immensely long legs to outstrip the opposition, but runs in the same style the others do, whereas Totilas is a bit of a freak!
dressager
Well-Known Member
Lol my non horsey bf said the same thing when I told him about the crazy 90% score.
BBs
Well-Known Member
Popadom wasnt your typical thoroughbred either, didnt stop him winning Burghley in 1967 with Lorna Clark
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
Actually I think the similie is an accurate one. Like Usain Bolt, Totilas is the result of the happy coincidence of a number of traits that have created an ideal athlete for his sport: conformation, work ethic, temperament, and extreme ability. This does not happen often! The three best dressage horses around today are Parzival, Mistral Hjoris and Totilas - the first two are brilliant and talented, but Totilas has the extra quality (when all goes well) that makes him exceptional. Like Bolt.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I agree.
I cannot believe all the critisism of totilas, even when we are shown somthing exceptional probably the most natural we will see in a lifetime, people still critizise.
Tortilas is definatly in the same league as milton maybe even more so if that is possible and the human equivalent mr Bolt and I consider that we are all very lucky to be able to witness/to have witnessed such raw natural ok well tuned and trained talent.
I cannot believe all the critisism of totilas, even when we are shown somthing exceptional probably the most natural we will see in a lifetime, people still critizise.
Tortilas is definatly in the same league as milton maybe even more so if that is possible and the human equivalent mr Bolt and I consider that we are all very lucky to be able to witness/to have witnessed such raw natural ok well tuned and trained talent.
Chloe_GHE
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Totilas is a bit of a freak!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh crikey I have missed all this just googled him and watched the video he is extraordinary!!!! he doesn't look real, he almost looks like a mechanical robot horse. What is the pace (is it extended trot?) when he goes across the diagonals with such a high arch in his front knees, almost spider like legs striking out infront of him, to me the more I watch it the more unreal he looks and that movement almost looks like a whole new gait... these dressage horses really are a breed apart. Not sure if I like it but find it intriguing how they can be trained to this stage....hhhmmmm....
Totilas is a bit of a freak!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh crikey I have missed all this just googled him and watched the video he is extraordinary!!!! he doesn't look real, he almost looks like a mechanical robot horse. What is the pace (is it extended trot?) when he goes across the diagonals with such a high arch in his front knees, almost spider like legs striking out infront of him, to me the more I watch it the more unreal he looks and that movement almost looks like a whole new gait... these dressage horses really are a breed apart. Not sure if I like it but find it intriguing how they can be trained to this stage....hhhmmmm....
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I cannot believe all the critisism of totilas, even when we are shown somthing exceptional probably the most natural we will see in a lifetime, people still critizise.
[/ QUOTE ]
llanerch, do you really think he looks 'natural'? i am amazed.
i agree that he is very trainable, has an amazing temperament, his piaffe, passage and canter pirouettes are exemplary imho (not a dr expert). but we know he's been worked in rollkur (vids of demo with Edward Gal working him like this, on youtube), do you think that's natural?
that is what gives the huge front end movement, i was told - unnatural squashing and over-use of gastrocnemius muscles in rollkur, means that forelegs are lifted artificially high. but that kind of front end action is definitely not natural... or if it is, the thousands of horses and ponies i've watched over the years all had something wrong with them!
I cannot believe all the critisism of totilas, even when we are shown somthing exceptional probably the most natural we will see in a lifetime, people still critizise.
[/ QUOTE ]
llanerch, do you really think he looks 'natural'? i am amazed.
i agree that he is very trainable, has an amazing temperament, his piaffe, passage and canter pirouettes are exemplary imho (not a dr expert). but we know he's been worked in rollkur (vids of demo with Edward Gal working him like this, on youtube), do you think that's natural?
that is what gives the huge front end movement, i was told - unnatural squashing and over-use of gastrocnemius muscles in rollkur, means that forelegs are lifted artificially high. but that kind of front end action is definitely not natural... or if it is, the thousands of horses and ponies i've watched over the years all had something wrong with them!
Attila_the_Hungry
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's supposed to be extended trot. IMHO that's actually his worst pace, it's all flash up front, but not enough real extension or ground cover, and I don't think he overtracks at all.
Having said that, the rest of his work is pretty special, so I guess I could live with it if he was mine! Mind you, he'd need to be able to event (or at least SJ), 'cos I couldn't bear to be stuck doing pure dressage for ever!
Having said that, the rest of his work is pretty special, so I guess I could live with it if he was mine! Mind you, he'd need to be able to event (or at least SJ), 'cos I couldn't bear to be stuck doing pure dressage for ever!
miller
Well-Known Member
I'm with Kerilli I'm afraid on this.
Both me and OH are into dressage and neither of us like his trot work (hind angles nowhere near the fronts) but I agree he is obv extremely trainable - must admit though I'm personally concerned re his soundness with this much work at his age
Every non horsey person who's seen this when I've been around has said to me "how the hell do they train them to do this unnatural stuff - there has got to be cruelty involved" or "is that a circus act?"
The whole image of horse sports and cruelty / doping is not being helped with these images to the public
Both me and OH are into dressage and neither of us like his trot work (hind angles nowhere near the fronts) but I agree he is obv extremely trainable - must admit though I'm personally concerned re his soundness with this much work at his age
Every non horsey person who's seen this when I've been around has said to me "how the hell do they train them to do this unnatural stuff - there has got to be cruelty involved" or "is that a circus act?"
The whole image of horse sports and cruelty / doping is not being helped with these images to the public
glamourpuss
Well-Known Member
I agree with kerilli, atilla and miller. In his trot work he looks like 2 different horses... this flashy over-exaggerated front end and a back end that doesn't match up anywhere near in terms of activity.
His comparison to UB is strange. UB is actually a strange combination of 2 different 'styles' of running, his long legs and relaxed style enable him to take the longer stride which is usually associated with distance running. Yet he still keeps the high leg turnover and cadence of a sprinter.
I don't see Totilas being a combination of 2 different styles of dressage horse.
His comparison to UB is strange. UB is actually a strange combination of 2 different 'styles' of running, his long legs and relaxed style enable him to take the longer stride which is usually associated with distance running. Yet he still keeps the high leg turnover and cadence of a sprinter.
I don't see Totilas being a combination of 2 different styles of dressage horse.
louisesb
Well-Known Member
I have to agree as well with Kerilli, Atilla, Miller and KW - I don't like that massive over exaggerated trot that the very top horses have - it just seems so un-natural and agree that the horses barely track up which is not what they try and acheive at the lower levels?
Also completely agree with Miller on the age side of things? Does the horse really need to be doing International GP's at age 9? Surely he's only been full developed for the last 1.5 - 2 years anyway so doing that amount of work will only lead to problems later on in life.
Possibly I'm missing the point, but I just don't like the overall picture it creates.
Although, I'll be the first to say the horse is obviously extremely talented and athletic and surely wouldn't do it's job so well if it didn't enjoy it?
Also completely agree with Miller on the age side of things? Does the horse really need to be doing International GP's at age 9? Surely he's only been full developed for the last 1.5 - 2 years anyway so doing that amount of work will only lead to problems later on in life.
Possibly I'm missing the point, but I just don't like the overall picture it creates.
Although, I'll be the first to say the horse is obviously extremely talented and athletic and surely wouldn't do it's job so well if it didn't enjoy it?
Madam_max
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% with you.
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
I'm following this debate with interest - don't really feel qualified to comment on his correctness or otherwise, but I must admit that although clearly the action of the front and hind limbs doesn't (and couldn't possibly) match, he does seem to be active and engaged, not like the majority of horses who display that fault of being flashy in front and non-existent behind?
My only other contribution would be to say that his Kur at Windsor, while undoubtedly brilliant and doubtless worthy of breaking records, failed to move me to tears in the way that Blue Hors Matinee's WEG test did...
My only other contribution would be to say that his Kur at Windsor, while undoubtedly brilliant and doubtless worthy of breaking records, failed to move me to tears in the way that Blue Hors Matinee's WEG test did...
mat
Well-Known Member
I can see both sides of this argument.... I do have to say that I was extremely impressed with Totilas. As said above there was no way that the hind legs could match the front ones in the trot, or he would have been close to kicking himself in the belly! I did think he was stepping under well with the hind legs though, unlike many of these horses with exaggerated front legs, and he was extremely uphill.
I think its fair to say that the test wasnt a display of dressage in the classical sense, but its also pretty fair to say that it has been a while since a truly classically trained horse has won a medal.
For better or for worse it does seem that the sport is evolving. My only hope is that the training methods undoubtedly used to get the movement seen in Totilas dont get used by riders who have neither the feel or experience to apply them in the most humane way...
As for Bolt?! He has a very different technique to the other sprinters IMO.. how many of them do you see jogging through the finish line and still breaking a world record!?
Interesting post.......
I think its fair to say that the test wasnt a display of dressage in the classical sense, but its also pretty fair to say that it has been a while since a truly classically trained horse has won a medal.
For better or for worse it does seem that the sport is evolving. My only hope is that the training methods undoubtedly used to get the movement seen in Totilas dont get used by riders who have neither the feel or experience to apply them in the most humane way...
As for Bolt?! He has a very different technique to the other sprinters IMO.. how many of them do you see jogging through the finish line and still breaking a world record!?
Interesting post.......
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I still say he is natural in a naturally talented way.
If you could manufacture his movement do you not think every one out there would be doing so, he is a one off, everything he does looks so easy.
Luckily for tortilas the judges agreed with me.
We are lucky to be able to witness him in our lifetime, as we are mr bolt
If you could manufacture his movement do you not think every one out there would be doing so, he is a one off, everything he does looks so easy.
Luckily for tortilas the judges agreed with me.
We are lucky to be able to witness him in our lifetime, as we are mr bolt
Holidays_are_coming
Well-Known Member
I agree I watched him at windsor on sat and was amazed but I really dont like his extended trot!!! I was speaking to my dressage instructor and he was commenting that with that movement he is unlikely to stay sound!
lannerch
Well-Known Member
now I totally agree with you twinkle poppy and your instructor.
off topic btw but I love your name I had a dog called poppy and my cat is called twinkle
off topic btw but I love your name I had a dog called poppy and my cat is called twinkle
mat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I still say he is natural in a naturally talented way.
If you could manufacture his movement do you not think every one out there would be doing so, he is a one off, everything he does looks so easy.
Luckily for tortilas the judges agreed with me.
We are lucky to be able to witness him in our lifetime, as we are mr bolt
[/ QUOTE ]
In the beginning of his warm up he did not trot like this, so what I am saying is that although he has the ability to move in that way, his training has allowed him to do it when it is asked of him.
He is indeed a one off, his expressive paces are unrivalled, but unnatural, that is not to say that I dont think that they are beautiful...
As for would everyone be doing it? I very much doubt there are many riders in the world the skill of Eddie Gal... the ability for the movement is clearly there but a lot of training has gone into developing it into the product we saw at Windsor.
The soundness issue is a worry. What you would hope is that a rider as experienced as Gal would limit the amount of time spent exerting Totilas in the way we see in the ring, so he can have a long and sound career.
I still say he is natural in a naturally talented way.
If you could manufacture his movement do you not think every one out there would be doing so, he is a one off, everything he does looks so easy.
Luckily for tortilas the judges agreed with me.
We are lucky to be able to witness him in our lifetime, as we are mr bolt
[/ QUOTE ]
In the beginning of his warm up he did not trot like this, so what I am saying is that although he has the ability to move in that way, his training has allowed him to do it when it is asked of him.
He is indeed a one off, his expressive paces are unrivalled, but unnatural, that is not to say that I dont think that they are beautiful...
As for would everyone be doing it? I very much doubt there are many riders in the world the skill of Eddie Gal... the ability for the movement is clearly there but a lot of training has gone into developing it into the product we saw at Windsor.
The soundness issue is a worry. What you would hope is that a rider as experienced as Gal would limit the amount of time spent exerting Totilas in the way we see in the ring, so he can have a long and sound career.