tough dog dilemma....

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posie_honey

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i'm needing a bit of help with a doggy related problem from people who are not involved and wont mince their words pls... sorry its a long one :(

facts- negatives
- old (unknown age possibly about 12 - owned for 5 years - was neglect rescue) springer spangle
- certified deaf
- half blind - has problems seeing on dark nights walks
- licks himself constantly on paws or 'bits' and causes sores
- barks from 4am on a bad day - 5am on a good day - every morning - i'm a light sleeper and i'm getting more and more tired from being woken up so early and have ended up in tears about it on numerous occasions and getting run down from it (i'm sure i could tire him out to sleep all night with long walks but he'd suffer terribly with stiffness etc:()
- also barks in house any time i am not in room with him
- bark collars do not work - only thing that does work and that we sometimes use for a full nights sleep when we're at wits end is a muzzle
- on metaclam daily to keep him comfortable due to arthritis - on short walks on lead as anymore and he suffers terribly
- peeing blood occasionally - vets diagnosed inflamed prostate - hormones given and prostate back to normal - peeing blood again - awaiting on results in case UTI - last results said no blood as periodic and he happened to pee at vets with no problem that time - typical!

positives:
- he still has the twinkle in his eye - he really is happy and full of life on the above routine....and other than the arthritis he's very healthy and to the casual observer he limps slightly but is happy, full of life and still bounces about.
- still able to control bowels etc

now - vet has suggested we put him on an antihistaime 24/7 that has mild sedative for his licking - when we trialled this is also seemed to stop his barking a bit which allowed me to get a week proper sleep which was lovely...... but he lost his spark - he was essentially sedated 24/7 and it cost a lot - esp on top of the metacalm :(

can you see where i'm going with this :(

thoughts pls - sedate? other ideas for barking/licking? or is it time do you think? :(
 
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OK, Ill jump in. I have a springer who is almost 14, owned from a pup. She has a few issues although not as many as your lad. I would say much depends on your ability to cope with everything and most importantly his general wellbeing and quality of life. Rosie is a bit deaf and does bark more than she used to for no particular reason, although nowhere near as much as yours is doing. I know how wearing this can be when it is happening for such long periods and at silly oclock. I wonder if he is feeling a bit insecure and scared (deaf and partly blind) when he is alone, not sure whether he is an only dog, ours is one of three! Would you allow him to sleep in your room, crated if necessary so that he knows youre nearby. It sounds as if the barking is the major issue, although obv you need to address the licking. Im not sure I would be keeping him sedated though to cure this, Im assuming your vet has checked for allergies etc and dont know whether you have his coat and paws trimmed, we found with Rosie that keeping her coat a bit shorter helped her stay more comfortable. Im no expert on why dogs lick like this but again could stress be causing it, going back to insecurity (Im sure Cayla or someone will know better than me). If he were mine I think I would be trying to keep him as comfy and happy as poss with minimal use of lots of different drugs and if that was not helping I would be considering PTS for his sake. We made the decision with all of ours (we have 3) that once they got to a point where they couldnt do what spangles do, ie go out for a walk on their own 4 legs, eat drink and be merry that we would PTS before they became distressed. Please dont think any of above is meant harshly, it's not, it's just my opinion as an unbiased reader x
 
Would it be possible to up his Metacam so that you can tire him out so he sleeps without the effect on his joints. We had a similiar issue with our old spaniel and got to the stage where we just upped her metacam as she was so old that Nature was going to kick in before liver damage would! We eventually had her pts at age 17 last year. There is a generic metacam that is way cheaper...I can't remember the name right now. Re: the licking...maybe a light layer of liquid paraffin or pig oil would help protect his skin if he is going to constantly lick
 
MyBoyChe - thank you for your reply :) i need people to comment (harshly or otherwise!) on the situation as i'm too close if that makes sense?! also makes me realise what parts of story i've missed...

so - some answers to your questions:

- kept with 2 other dogs in a daily fixed routine

- tried keeping him in our room - with other dogs and without (much to OH's disgust as we do not let dogs come upstairs usually) and it unsetteled him even more as out of routine - he just walked and walked all night :(

- crate - as he was a neglect case left in a kennel i suspect he'd not cope with a crate - he's alwasy been very neurotic

- vet has checked coat etc - its a pure habit thing from his neglect days - when we could walk him more he did it less as was more tired - he used to preiodically have to have steriods to stop the lick cycle if it did start but obv now he's on metacalm he can't have them (the two can't be mixed) hence vets suggestion of antihistamine's

and to add another dimension - these are working dogs - he has always lived to work and will still hunt/flush a pheasant if he can - i'd always said the day he didn't pull to chase one would be the day he'd be PTS - but he still does - if he didn't the decision would be an easy one.
 
amage - thanks you too for your reply

i actually do wonder if the metaclam is already the source of the blood in the pee :( awaiting results from vets - they've been delayed due to the snow :(

he's on 15ml per day at the mo - up to 25ml if he's really suffering - we could up to 25ml a day but i'm keen to find out reason for the blood first

he also licks anything off his skin - we;ve tried :(

eta - if you could remember the name fo the metaclam replacement that would be great thank you :) i am considering asking vets for a prescription so i can buy online as that would also work out far cheaper - but i'm not sure they will do that :(
 
I just rang Mam and she said it was Meloxicam that our girl used to get! Also Vet has to give a prescription if you request it. You are not obliged to buy drugs from them. They may charge for the script but if they are anyway reasonable they should either give you script or discount! If it is of any help to you the day that we let Kerry go she wouldn't eat or walk. She went for one last trip to the beach and she struggled to try and get to the sea (she was a real water lover) so dad brought her in and she splashed and swam the length of the beach. She then got back in the car and closed her eyes and never opened them again. She went straight from her swim to the vets and was pts. The not eating was her biggest indicator that she was ready to go. Aout 6months earlier my dad had thought she might be ready to go and brought her for a walk on his own to see how low she had gone...she took off chasing a cat like a greyhound and dad couldn't understand how he ever thought she was close to dying so I suppose when they are ready to go they really do tell you.
It was a retired vet who said to us about upping the drugs. He said that often people forget that the longterm side effects aren't really an issue when they become old and if medication allows them extra comfort before they really are ready to go then it is for the best!
 
ah interesting about the metaclam/prescription etc - thank you :)

if it was simply a case of him and his happyness i'd say he's not ready - but when you add in the barking that is stopping us sleeping and driving us to distraction/to be run down, the licking, the blood in pee and the mixture of drugs he could end up having it all gets more complicated :(
 
posie_honey said:
ah interesting about the metaclam/prescription etc - thank you :)

if it was simply a case of him and his happyness i'd say he's not ready - but when you add in the barking that is stopping us sleeping and driving us to distraction/to be run down, the licking, the blood in pee and the mixture of drugs he could end up having it all gets more complicated :(
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Absolutely toatally agree with you re: the barking. And the barking is presumably a response to some sort of stress he is feeling from somewhere
 
I'll jump in and say remember, it's alright going on about quality of life for the dog, but you, as the owners need quality of life too and if anything is intruding on that then it should be changed if possible.
It's a tough decision in anyone's eyes and also think of your other dogs too. They are probably as fed up with his barking as you are; I know our lot get very grumpy if one of them starts up for no reason at all. different if there is a legitimate reason but not if they're what we call moon-barking in a monnotenous (spl!) way. Is there no way of sound proofing where they are kept so at least it can be kept to something in the background rather than a full on loud bark every time? Is there something like a Mogadon for dogs that could be given each night to enable you to get your sleep?
If there are no cures for him and given his stress related habits, I think I would feel comfortable with myself to PTS, certainly sooner rather than wait too long when you might end up begrudging him more than ever. Sorry, very tough one.
 
Have you spoken to your vet about using a different drug? Metacam is just like nurofen (sp) really - and simply upping the amount will have repercussions.

Can you give him a morphine based drug instead (I was offered one the other day for one of my cats who was poorly - but I refused, feeling the Metacam was enough). That would give greater pain relief for a lesser amount.

And how long has the barking being going on - and is there any type of external stimulus that could be triggering the barking?

And just aluding to what Maesfen has said - I did in fact put one of my cats down when her incontience became too much to cope with, despite the fact that she could have been medicated to go on longer, and was relitavely young
 
Did he always bark in the early AM..or is this a senility thing? If it is senility ,then demand he gets Vivitonin..great stuff ..your previous almost sane Springer will re-emerge.Basically a drug for canine senile dementia,and it WORKS. Arthritus ..well Metacam is pretty hard on the stomach over a period,ask for Prednoleucotropine...PLT tabs,in vetspeak PoorlyLegablets! Much better for long term..and loads cheaper. Other stuff well worth trying for arthritus ..green lipped NZ mussel capsules..as for humes..they work too.
All that lot should solve your probs,if he STILL needs help sleeping then Calms tablets are good..give four at a time.Again ,a hume drug(valerian).
 
amymay and east-kent - thank you very much for your suggestions

his barking started as he got exersised less - which was due to his arthritis - he still gets walked a good mile or two twice a day (that's a short walk in this household ;)) on an extendable lead (as you can imagine i can't let a deaf spangle who still thinks he's 5 off on a shooting estate lol!) but we also have set fields that he is let off on where he can't escape - so its not like he's not off the lead ever

but i also do think its a senility thing - as the barking if he's not in the same room has got worse and worse over the last 6months or so and sometimes its just barking into a corner etc

going away is also a nightmare as you can imagine - he can't go in kennels as that really would kill him after his neglect in kennels as a younger dog - friends are beginning to say no to house sitting as he wakes them too :( and if we take him with us we have to muzzel him - which i'm happy to do the odd night but over a prolonged period its obv not ideal

but fingers crossed some of the other drugs mentioned may help :)

thank you once again - if i can do something to help i will try - he's def worth a few last attempts :) i'm feeling far moer positive now :)
 
Maesfen = thank you also for your post - i was feeling awful even considering having him PTS as it felt ever so selfish but you're right - the morning barking is a killer for me - esp as i'm someone who does not do well on lack of sleep

i will look into mogadon type stuff too :) (presuming this is a sleeping pill?!)
 
It sounds like his mental health is deteriorating as much as his physical health and that is easier to overlook but no less important to his wellbeing. I would speak to your vet about the drugs EK has suggested and if there is no improvement from these I would PTS. I'm sure he can't enjoy barking / pacing for hours on end either
 
thanks brownmare - yup i'll look into those drugs - tbh i'd kinda thought this was it due to - as you say - mental heath as well as physical :(

but i'd rather try everything first - so v glad i started this post and got some more suggestions - my vets didn't mention any of them so i'll go with list in hand and demand some alternatives :)
 
It does sound like canine senile dementia ..and maybe his arthritus wakes him up (it does me!) and kicks off these mindless antics.Poor chap,give him at least a fortnight on Vivitonin and PLT before you definitely decide.It is so hard with oldies to know when..but he sounds pretty chipper except for the dementia to me.
 
Distraction techniques??
Our old springer who went blind and deaf-loud barking so as she could hear herself was also losing her facilities. One thing that we tried by accident was a Kong toy stuffed with peanut butter (sugar free). It seemed to keep her occupied as every day she seem suprised to have a treat.

Chin up.
 
Just caught up with this thread and with the other bits of info it does sound as if you are doing all the right things for him given his troubled past. There are some good suggestions in there and Im sure theyre worth a shot as you obviously want to do the very best by him. I just wanted to add that if you decide to call it a day you shouldnt beat yourself up about it. You have given him a quality of life that must at one point have seemed so distant to him, he has been loved and cared for and you understand him. If he is starting to go downhill mentally or physically you will know when the time is right and he will be thankful to you for not allowing him to suffer.
 
Sorry if someone has already asked you this — have not had time to trawl through all the responses, but what are you feeding him. He could have a food allergy — hence all the licking. Some feed companies (james Wellbeloved? poss or Science diet?) do a sensitive version of their feed. it might help
 
thanks for the additional replys guys

shoey - he came to me with severe muscle wastage, mange, rotton teeth and colitis! that was 6 (i think i put 5 before but realised its 6 on the 23th jan 2011!) years ago - at that point the vet put him on a special diet - he gradaully then got weaned off that and onto skinners museli mix that we fed them all at that point - then a few years later he started to choke on it as he began to forget to chew and would inhale the food :rolleyes: so we moved him onto Dr Johns Silver - which is a med protein level nugget that he had to chew - and he has been on that now for 2years and - and no side affects - so i'm 99% sure its not his feed :)

but thank you for your comments as i do know feed can affect coat etc and maybe a person reeading this with similar problems may not have thought of it :)
 
which is a med protein level nugget that he had to chew
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If he's not able to exercise much - it actually could be the level of protein he's receiving that's making him itch - remember we can see this in horses.

Primrose oil is a good additive to aid with skin conditions in dogs.
 
amymay said:
If he's not able to exercise much - it actually could be the level of protein he's receiving that's making him itch - remember we can see this in horses.

Primrose oil is a good additive to aid with skin conditions in dogs.
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its 18% - to give you a comparrison - science plan sensitive skin is 25% protein, Eukanuba sensitive skin is 23%, james well beloved 21%......
and protein in senior feeds is more at the 27%+ ranges! so i think protein level is fine - but glad i double checked as although i was sure it was ok as i'd previeously mentioned i did begin to wonder when questioned!

We did try him on EPR tablets a few a years back (again as previously mentioned he's always been prone to habitual licking and has previously had steriods to break the cycle but now he's older and on metecalm he can't have them) but they didn't seem to make any difference to him - nor did cod liver oil added to his feed - or different types/varietys of feed.

i actually think the skin irritation is from the habitual licking - not the other way round - and causes a vicious cycle :(

thank you for your suggestions though - any ideas are good and help me consider if i've missed anything!
 
Agree with EK and would try the vivititonin, have seen a good few dogs life quality improve on them.
The licking could now be an OCD, it could act to de stress him, or an auto immune disorder (Im always suspicious of this) when licking starts and like mutilation of feet when anal glands are impacted auto immune works the same way, they will try and relieve pain/irritation on an area they can reach as opposed to an area they cannot.
I would have him bathed and a full blast out at the parlour/local groom if u can regurlarly in a medicated shampoo, I have seen this help immensley with the licking/skin irritation and have him clipped down.

He does also sound senile and confused, he is maybe waking from a deep sleep and trying to locate everyone!, getting disturbed!, wanting the toilet!
Do you go down to him when he barks? if so whay do u do? let him out/e,t,c
Could u maybe set a food timer for him with a sedative in.......lol, just messing:D
Maybe try a holistic/hypoallergenic based food with low protein as suggested.

It def maybe worth while making a smaller more secure area and darkening it down to see if it makes a difference in his sleep/disturbance patterns, even if not a crate, a sectioned off area.

I have to say if all things fail I would consider PTS, for yours and his quality of life.
 
posie_honey

My 9 year old Springer (Diagnosed with arthritis at the age of 7yrs old) has been on Metacam but this caused bleeding. He is now on Previcote which seems to be better for him.

He goes and has hydrotherapy once a week which again helps. Recently I have started him on Stride Plus http://www.viovet.co.uk/p1270/Strid...ine_and_Chondroitin_-_200ml/product_info.html He is on Day 14 and he seems much better. I have also started him on the Hills JD diet.

He too seems to have a skin problem so will look into that too.
 
thanks for suggestion cayla = i've actually been trawling the internet after amymay's suggestion of low preotein as i was sure he was on one of the lowest and i am pleased to say i can't find one lower that his current 18% protein feed! all the hypoallergellic ones i can find are around the 20-25%

i do wash him regularily (at least once a month) in the bath with medicated shampoo with aloe vera (and boy does the old dog come alive and fight for his life NOT to have a bath lol!! he's always hated them!) for his skin as because as you can imagin as an older dog he can smell a bit :o he gets blow dryed in winter if cold - much to his disgust!!

he;s also fully clipped in spring and over summer and it makes no differnce - in winter i allow coat to grow back as it's a wee bitty cold up here some nights lol! but i keep any irritated bits clipped and keep clean with hibiscrub and use organic aloe vera gel on it which seems to help - it can look a bit odd but shhhhhhhh - he doesn't know that ;)

i also brush him at least once a week - he loves being brushed :) oh and he also gets a massage/treatment from the horse's back lady when she's out for honey's 3m check ups to ensure his back is not causing pain etc - he is a tad bit spoilt :o and who says working dogs are jsut forgotten about when they retire ;)

when he barks on work mornings i go down and put his muzzel on if i think i can get back to sleep - ie if a 4am morning etc - if its near to 5.45 get up time then i just ignore it.

if we go to bed at 9pm or 1am it makes no differnece so i don't think its a needing the loo thing...

he does it summer and winter (so light/dark with good scottish extreem daylight hours! we did think it was light and tried a black out blind but no difference :rolleyes:) and apart from when we tried him upstairs he has always been in their own room (back kitchen/boot room etc)

you know what its like... a toddler on xmas morning - shouting... mum...:D mum....:D mum...:D bless him lol

def going to talk to vets about the vivititonin :) still no pee results from vets and a load more snow due up here too :(

ETA - he's also on a joint supp and has a magnetic collar on each night and a thermatex if cold
 
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paulineh - thanks for that - the more i think about it the more i'm sure its the metaclam causing the blood in the pee rather than a UTI as he shows no sign of pain and no inflamation in his abdomen etc (as verified by vet on first appointment who said it was a hormone imbalance and gave him hormone injections)

he would LOVE hydrotherapy - he loves swimming (just hates baths) and swims regularily in the summer but i don't let him in winter - but maybe i'll look for a hydrotherapy place near here for winter swimming :) thank you
 
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