Tough love?

Dry Rot

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We have a problem child. Or rather a problem 4yo Highland gelding. Briefly, born on the hill in a large herd, bought and started on ground work by first owner at two, sold on a couple of years later (owner got divorced) to new owners. Bought by me as a project after a few months in that ownership (sold because of a change of employment).

The pony has been very spooky from the start, panicking at trivial things. Like suddenly believing the saddle is a threat and not wanting it any where near him. Fear of long reins. Etc. On the other hand, he happily leads across plastic, plywood sheets, etc. Five months on and we have done a lot of desensitising and are now long reining him quite well. Unfortunately, he only gets a couple of lessons a week which has contributed to the slow progress, but then I am in no hurry.

To date, we have been tip-toeing around him, pandering to his foibles, and calming his fears. Today, he took objection to the girl standing on the mounting block (half a plastic barrel) beside him in preparation to lying across the saddle for the first time and he started pulling back and doing mini-rears. This time I reacted by shouting at him and jerking the lead rope (plus a few choice words!), something I have never done before. That definitely seemed to calm him down. Once he had settled a bit, I stroked his neck, face, chest, etc. as usual. He does listen and is good with voice commands. We had a few more temper tantrums but I really need guidance. Living in the far north of Scotland as I do does not give me a lot of options.

Did I do right? I do not speak fluent horse yet, but I am learning! Is there anything else I should be doing? Frankly, I have come to think he isn't so much scared as behaving like a spoilt child and throwing a tantrum when things don't go his way. On the other hand, I am not anxious to have half a tonne of horse flesh landing on my head nor do I want to keep him just for his company and for mowing the lawn! Progress is just a bit toooo slow as things are, even for me.
 

ycbm

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I have no doubt at all that there are horses which take reassurance as approval for their behavior and confirmation of their fears.

For those, a telling off often results in a big sigh of relief and an almost audible 'oh thank god I've got a leader at last'. Those horses are definitely made less anxious by removing from them the need to be responsible for their own actions.

It sounds as though you have one.
 
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be positive

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I don't think horses throw tantrums in the way we can but they do push the boundaries and at times overreact for no apparent reason, if the handler then backs off they have learnt that the overreaction has had an impact and it can become a habit.

I have started many youngsters over the years and also done remedial work often on nervous or badly started ponies, many have been natives, they generally do not appreciate the tiptoeing around approach unless they have genuinely had a bad experience, most are best given firm, clear and fairly "loud" signals, this does not mean literally shouting but the odd shout or slap will more frequently have a better result than any amount of pandering to them and being too soft.

Fluent horse is tricky to always get right, we can interpret signals wrongly and make a mistake, it is how we then deal with the mistakes that is most important, if you listen you will not repeat the wrong move and find another way to achieve whatever you are trying to do.

It sounds to me as if this pony may be nervous because everyone around him has also been sending out mixed signals possibly all his life as he has had little stability, he has started life feral, moved a few times probably without much being properly established, he is now a little confused and when he tenses up or shows a fear of something you are trying hard to tell him it is fine but possibly reinforcing his fears by being too sensitive, I have had several similar to deal with and have found often the more you pat and reassure them the more they seem to worry, a firm hand can actually make them trust you really are the leader, it seems you have come a long way, trust your instincts and put a bit more pressure on him, if he can take it you will soon see improvements, if he cannot it should do no harm as long as you back off before it goes too far the wrong way.
 

Dry Rot

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Thanks for the replies. I should probably have said that this boy was until recently in with a yearling and a 2yo, both colts. No particular activity was noticed except when we talk to the problem child he tends to move off when the 2yo approaches. He has now been put in with a mixed herd of 7 youngsters (aged 1 to 5) with an older mare. He was always at the bottom of the peck order but has now teamed up with the 5yo mare (although she will occasionally put him in his place!). He is occasionaly chased by a 3yo gelding who is quite bossy. I don't know if that is relevant but for a long time he was down at the bottom of the peck order which makes sense with Be Positive's suggestion that he needs a leader. So, thanks to you both. That is very useful. Today I did try to reassure the pony after I'd given him the row. That would be my approach to a dog in a similar situation, in other words I am seeking to correct the behaviour rather than drive him away from the pack or herd.
 

be positive

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Herd dynamics are really interesting, my own horse is a leader but not the most confident which causes him problems at times, he was at his worst when turned out with a horse of similar age and size who was a total follower in every respect, my boy was constantly on his guard and became more edgy generally, I ended up having to separate them, he is now out in a group of four all smaller and older he is still in charge but is far more relaxed as the others are all independent and he is not having to be constantly in control.

You may find as your pony finds his place in the herd he becomes more self confident, as he becomes more comfortable and secure in the work you do he may be stronger within the herd and everything will move forward more quickly.
 

ycbm

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Absolutely, Dry Rot, a telling off, even a smack, and then an immediate 'but I still love you' as soon as he has done something approaching what you want. I find that you can tell the ones which need this approach by their readiness to approach you immediately after being 'punished' for poor behaviour. They crave leadership.
 

Orangehorse

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I met a Highland breeder in the summer, she breaks and schools her ponies and sells them when they are going OK and 4ish. They have been well educated and will hack alone on the roads and go in company. She tells every buyer that they will be back on the phone pleading with her to take the pony back, as they put their new owner through all sorts of tests and it takes about 6 months for a Highland to settle down in a new home.

I don't know quite what they do to their new owners, but it seems to be a characteristic. However, she says that when they get going it will be the best pony you ever have.

OP, maybe just talk to a local breeder/producer of Highlands who could give you some advice. There is a breed society and a Highland Pony Enthusiasts Club.
 

Magnetic Sparrow

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I have no doubt at all that there are horses which take reassurance as approval for their behavior and confirmation of their fears.

For those, a telling off often results in a big sigh of relief and an almost audible 'oh thank god I've got a leader at last'. Those horses are definitely made less anxious by removing from them the need to be responsible for their own actions.

It sounds as though you have one.

I love the way you phrased that. Brilliant.
 

ycbm

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I love the way you phrased that. Brilliant.

Thank you :) Many years ago now, I lost my temper with a nervous horse and threw a brush at him with considerable force, and I was completely stunned when he came over to me immediately, craving my company/leadership. It made me rethink my ideas!
 

Sheep

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I met a Highland breeder in the summer, she breaks and schools her ponies and sells when they are going OK and 4ish. They have been well educated and will hack alone on the roads and go in company. She tells every buyer that they will be back on the phone pleading with her to take the pony back, as they put their new owner through all sorts of tests and it takes about 6 months for a Highland to settle down in a new home.

I don't know quite what they do to their new owners, but it seems to be a characteristic. However, she says that when they get going it will be the best pony you ever have.

OP, maybe just talk to a local breeder/producer of Highlands who could give you some advice. There is a breed society and a Highland Pony Enthusiasts Club.

Interesting insight into the breed, I really like the idea of having a Highland at some point! Especially after seeing JFTD and her boys :) I think the OP might be a breeder already.
 

rachk89

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I have no doubt at all that there are horses which take reassurance as approval for their behavior and confirmation of their fears.

For those, a telling off often results in a big sigh of relief and an almost audible 'oh thank god I've got a leader at last'. Those horses are definitely made less anxious by removing from them the need to be responsible for their own actions.

It sounds as though you have one.

Mine is like that. He likes his rider being the one in charge although because he is dominant in the field he hates having a male rider on him that is dominant. He tried to throw one of them off before yet he has never attempted proper rears or bucks with me. Most i get is weird hops on the spot when he freaks out when a horse leaves him alone in the arena. He is definitely a ladies horse.

Out in the field though he is happy being the leader. Him and a highland pony gelding were having arguments over who was leader but it never developed into fighting was more just nipping at each other then dividing the herd between them. He did that when he first arrived with the previous leader of the herd just walked in and took more than half the herd off him haha.
 

Dry Rot

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I met a Highland breeder in the summer, she breaks and schools her ponies and sells them when they are going OK and 4ish. They have been well educated and will hack alone on the roads and go in company. She tells every buyer that they will be back on the phone pleading with her to take the pony back, as they put their new owner through all sorts of tests and it takes about 6 months for a Highland to settle down in a new home.

I don't know quite what they do to their new owners, but it seems to be a characteristic. However, she says that when they get going it will be the best pony you ever have.

OP, maybe just talk to a local breeder/producer of Highlands who could give you some advice. There is a breed society and a Highland Pony Enthusiasts Club.

That post made me smile! I am actually a small Highland breeder (http://www.morrichhighlandponies.co.uk) and we have no problems with our home bred youngsters. In fact, of the last half dozen that we've broken, there have been perhaps two half bucks and no rears. But this pony was bought in, originally off the hill.

We also sold a 4yo that fitted your description perfectly. An absolute saint here, the new owner oscilated between loving him to bits to wanting to return him. This continued for several weeks -- and now she would not part with him for anything, just as you've posted!
 

Dry Rot

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Interesting insight into the breed, I really like the idea of having a Highland at some point! Especially after seeing JFTD and her boys :) I think the OP might be a breeder already.

JFTD's both came from me, though I did not breed Fergs, just bought him in as a foal at foot.
 

Sophiecollins11

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I don't see a problem in the way you after, sometimes horses need a leader to "boss" them about a bit and better that than a horse who thinks he's in change of you!
My cob is quite a lot bigger than me and he used to be rather bargey and actually trapped me against his wall a couple of times and I decided I had enough so I slapped him once then it never really happened again! I think he was just acting similar to a human child and testing my patience to see how far he could push me but after I was actually hurt I wasn't having nothing! And if he tries it on me now I have no problem with a little slap and telling off, of course some positive reinforcement aswell :)
 

NZJenny

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I don't punish "bad" behaviour, but always correct it. In your example of the mounting block, I would have just put him back where I wanted him, but not patted or fussed over him, as I don't want to reward the running away.

My current horse runs backwards when she doesn't like something. It's a bit nerve racking when you are on top, so I put her nose by my foot and she gets to go around in circles instead. Her only other option is to go forward - her choice. However, I don't "punish" the bad behaviour, I essentially ignore it, and give her a pat when she goes the way I wanted.
 

Orca

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With green horses in particular, it's the Goldilocks theory for me. Always aiming for 'just right' (i.e. kind but firm). Not too little (i.e. pussyfooting) or too much (i.e. aggression). The only time I've seen out and out aggression used on a horse in person, the aggressor received a swift double barrel in response (and good on that horse!). Voice, body language and eye contact can be very useful though and mine know when I'm happy and when I'm not, so when they are doing right and when they are doing wrong. There are so many ways to communicate effectively without resorting to punishment, so it wouldn't be an option I'd normally go to (in fact, I don't think I ever have!).
 

Dry Rot

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With green horses in particular, it's the Goldilocks theory for me. Always aiming for 'just right' (i.e. kind but firm). Not too little (i.e. pussyfooting) or too much (i.e. aggression). The only time I've seen out and out aggression used on a horse in person, the aggressor received a swift double barrel in response (and good on that horse!). Voice, body language and eye contact can be very useful though and mine know when I'm happy and when I'm not, so when they are doing right and when they are doing wrong. There are so many ways to communicate effectively without resorting to punishment, so it wouldn't be an option I'd normally go to (in fact, I don't think I ever have!).

Because of this pony's initial spookiness, I do think we tip toed around him for far too long. He was bought in June and we are only now long reining him because he'd get upset over silly things like the lunge roller, long reins, etc. I have a long experience training dogs (a LOT of dogs!) and certainly know how to moderate reward and punishment.

When the pony objected to the moutnig block, I did lose my usual placid calm and shouted at him and jerked the lead rope on the rope halter. I haven't done that before and he looked quite shocked and immediately calmed down! No, I won't be producing the length of rusty barbed wire to give him a good flogging -- but I will be taking a tougher line in future, thanks to all the good advice here. I can see how not all his behaviour is grounded in fear. He spooked the other day while having his bridle put on, broke away (in the round pen, so no where to go), and did several circuits at a canter. So now I put a non-slip noose around his neck first with a couple of turns around a post. He's tried to break away once since but seems to have given up as it didn't work. I think a no-nonsense approach will get us there as he can't still be frightened after five months, can he??
 

tristar

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take charge, know what you want, be ready to stop or correct even a hoof out of place, and go for what you want the horse to do.

I have a very challenging horse, not nervous just very smart and bold, even now watches every move you make, he needs the right body language which consists largely of me having my brain in gear and acting as if its already happening, but, he is a great horse and gets lavished with praise and huge treats at the end of a session because he knows whats going on and when he`s done his work he knows that he did well, you can see his face shining with pride.

I think there is an element of de sensitisation needed with nervous ones, but also a take no notice of the antics thing, if they see you don`t join in the game sometimes they don`t.
 

SpringArising

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To date, we have been tip-toeing around him, pandering to his foibles, and calming his fears

I do the total opposite for wimp horses. I completely ignore their spooky episodes, play loud music around them, 'accidentally' drop brooms and brushes around them, drag and swing ropes around etc. People probably wonder why the hell I'm so clumsy, but it works a treat.
 

PaddyMonty

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Over the years I've found the best way to calm a horses fears is to NOT tip toe around them. Just get on with things in a confident no nonsense manner and expect the result you want. Horse soon learns that there's nothing to get worried about. Tip toe around and you give the wrong vibe and create an air of tension.
Horse don't know what the correct response is to the things we ask of them so they try different responses. If they get praise for the wrong reaction then how do they learn. If they don't get praise for the correct response then again, how do they learn. Calm, confident but most of all the handlers reactions should leave no doubt in the horses mind. Black and white, nothing else.
 

RosieJM

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I guess the horse will tell you - if he is getting better, then something that you have changed must be working for him.

I often find with the spooky ones, progress has to be made in steps half the size you would normally take, but you set out to take the smaller step deliberately (rather than set out to do something and not achieve it), and then complete each stage very thoroughly with billions of repetitions and incredibly clear and consistent control of their feet. So I would expect absolutely stillness at the block, and would correct if I don't have it (with a very small quick circle or a clear back up), but would aim to build up the stimulus slow enough that it is very likely I can get good behaviour - and then repeat way way more with slight variations in different places and with different coats on etc (!!) until it is really thoroughly acceptable even on a windy day - not just sort of OK if everyone crosses their fingers. I find two or even three sessions a day works wonders, and long sessions at a slow pace can really help - so lots of walking out in hand, walking over raised poles on the longlines, and short reining too, leading off another horse for some hacking experience if possible on some good long but slow hacks (and work on the mounting block before he goes off and when he gets back). I think I am probably repeating things you already know, but this would by my approach.

I suppose it is sort of tough, in that I am clear about boundaries and expectations, and I don't mind working with them quite a bit in terms of clocking up miles not in terms of being sweaty and exhausted - but on the other hand not that tough in that I wouldn't want to add fuel to the fire by raising adrenaline with 'telling off' so much as giving a clear consequence. I don't think he would be pretending to be afraid - if he looks afraid, I'll bet he is. But he still needs to learn how to handle that fear in an appropriate way, and that probably means keeping four feet on the floor. It sounds like that is the approach you are trying to implement anyway - let us know how you get on.
 

Dry Rot

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Just popped back in to report progress. Well, my language has been making me blush but, yes, swearing at the pony when he acts up definitely worked today! We didn't do anything dramatic but he was listening more and while before he would have gone off on a hissing fit, he actually calmed down after being shouted at when he gots scratches and stroking. The worst I have done is jerk the lead rope. Fortunately, he seems to have given up the violent pulling away as I cannot hold him when he does that. Today I could and I felt he wasn't convinced his tantrums would get him what he wanted. The girl was able to lean over him with most of her weight, though let it be whispered I stuck a carrot in his mouth at the same time!:) This is working and I think we'll be making better progress in the future. Not sure if it would have worked earlier. Every now and again, he will push his head into my chest or give me a look which says, "I know you don't MEAN it!" Yes, I know it may not seem much, but it is a big step for us with this pony who has been a real problem.

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Orca

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Just popped back in to report progress. Well, my language has been making me blush but, yes, swearing at the pony when he acts up definitely worked today! We didn't do anything dramatic but he was listening more and while before he would have gone off on a hissing fit, he actually calmed down after being shouted at when he gots scratches and stroking. The worst I have done is jerk the lead rope. Fortunately, he seems to have given up the violent pulling away as I cannot hold him when he does that. Today I could and I felt he wasn't convinced his tantrums would get him what he wanted. The girl was able to lean over him with most of her weight, though let it be whispered I stuck a carrot in his mouth at the same time!:) This is working and I think we'll be making better progress in the future. Not sure if it would have worked earlier. Every now and again, he will push his head into my chest or give me a look which says, "I know you don't MEAN it!" Yes, I know it may not seem much, but it is a big step for us with this pony who has been a real problem.

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It sounds like you've really turned a corner in your relationship. The confident/ determined tone of your post is really striking!
 

ycbm

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I can hear his sigh of relief that a leader has appeared and relieved him of the need to worry about every little thing in life from here :) It won't hurt his education to learn a few swear words either :D

Great progress Dry Rot, I hope it continues and you post photos of a rider on board.
 

NiceNeverNaughty

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Sorry to resurrect but I was looking for this thread!! Funnily enough Dryrot I have had almost the same experience and some googling and research to confirm my thoughts happened upon your FB page and the pic above of Jen leaning over him and so off to hunt here I came.

I’ve had a few Highlands over the last 30 years and back in June, bought myself a completely unhandled, 3 year old hill pony. I knew the breeding line to be one with exceptional temperaments. Initially I couldn’t get near her at all.. I did a lot of slow, steady work with her and she now catches, leads, picks up all her feet, is good for the farrier, wears tack and has been bitted, long reins off a rope halter and I have done a lot of desensitising work with her. However she was STILL acting as if she was head shy, the farrier produced a towel the other day and she snorted and shot back like she was about to be killed - this being despite many many sessions with flappy objects, coats, rugs, bags, tarpaulins. She will stand perfectly one day and then overreact the next. I was constantly finding myself having to still move slowly to put her headcollar on and she would always stay back from the stable door and snort/roll eyes if a hand reached out to her. Following my farrier giving her a few choice words to basically 'wo/man up’ I myself then was very cross with myself the next day; I was tired, hungover, grumpy and she was spinning away from me in the stable and I got after her, shouted at her and told her to blimmin well stand up. Up to this point I have pandered carefully around her, knowing she had been unhandled and not wanting to worry her.. well the next day the difference caused me to stop and wonder was it the same pony!? Not only was she following me around the stable, she offered and lowered her head for the headcollar and has come straight to the stable door allowing me to touch her head without any dramatics at all! It all makes sense now having read the other replies - I will look forward to your progress DR, will try to find some pic of mine too.
 

Dry Rot

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NeverEver, that is good to hear. Glad my experiences have done someone some good. I am afraid this pony is now heavily in debt but he will be here until we've got him right. As the scrap man said when he towed away my first car, "Experience is cheap whatever we pay for it!" One thing, I think it is definitely important to analyse the situation. No good being horrible to a horse when it is genuinely frightened (think loading problems), but on the other hand, we don't want to reward bad behaviour. Our pony is now backed and being ridden, but only in he round pen and while being led, albeit on the lunge. We have had a couple of 'episodes' but thankfully I have a young lady who sticks to the saddle and the couple of times she has come off, she has bounced! She is also as determined as I am to get this problem sorted. I think our next step is to have a third person riding a broken pony to give the problem child some confidence. I'll report back on progress. But it really is rewarding when something goes right for a change! :D
 

kassieg

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1 of my youngsters was crazily clingy & anxious if my other 1 got too far away etc. I let my other youngster out & then went to rug up the nutty 1 & she just span round in her stable. A smack & a shout & she realised that actually I was trying to help by getting her rug on so she can go out. She now always stands like a rock.

When I'm doing "tough love" I always use a voice command. Like said above horse would not back up when getting her feed & would try to walk over you! An elbow to the chest & a firm back over the course of a week & all she now needs is a point & back, sometimes she does it automatically :) they with youngsters especially 1s who push their luck firm fair & clear is the way forward for me & repetition until they do as you want. Lots of praise when they do it right. If they do something naughty a smack & a voice command. If they don't get it straight away or are unsure, repetition until they get it.
 
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