Towing for numpties

perfect11s said:
Im sick of this misinfomation YOU DONT NEED TO DOWN RATE A TRAILER THATS UNDER 3.5 TON IF YOU HAVE THE FULL INTITLEMENT ON YOUR LICENCE
if the police or VOSA belive you are overloaded the only way they can 'do' you is to take you to a weighbridge they carn't make laws up as they go along...
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I think you misunderstood my comment, we were talking about downrating for people without the full entitlement, not those with.
 
I have just rung the DVLA, who have assured me that I don't need to worry about the MAM for the horsebox. As long as the weight I am actually towing is 1500kg or less (ie less than the car and under 3500kg combined) - so 1000kg trailer plus up to 500kg horse and stuff, then I am okay and within my legal entitlement.
 
alcraw said:
I have just rung the DVLA, who have assured me that I don't need to worry about the MAM for the horsebox. As long as the weight I am actually towing is 1500kg or less (ie less than the car and under 3500kg combined) - so 1000kg trailer plus up to 500kg horse and stuff, then I am okay and within my legal entitlement.
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I told you so:D:D:D:D:D
 
This is completely different to what I was told by the police and DVLA, and for the sake of £115 I wasn't prepared to risk it. It seems that no one is entirely sure on what is right or wrong, ie, giving out conflicting advice to different people?? If you are going to tow on this advice, I would ask the DVLA to put it in writing for you, and have the name of who you spoke to, so if you are stopped you can show whoever stops you.
 
zoeshiloh - I totally agree with you. I have contacted the DVLA a few times about this and I've had conflicting information every time!! There is no simple black and white explanation for those of us with post 1997 licenses as to what we can and cannot tow, and it's mighty annoying!

I could, if I wanted to, borrow a horse box and suitable car to tow, but because I've never been able to work out if I'd be legal, I haven't. I just wish someone at the DVLA would tell us exactly what is allowed without all this mumbo jumbo and ifs and buts and maybe even give us a calculator that confirms whether we're legal or not.

It's so annoying... *sigh*
 
You have been given duff advice by the dvla there.

Legally it is definitely the MAM of the load that counts. Otherwise, why do people have to down rate their lorries to 7.5t, why can't I drive my oh's artic lorry when it's empty? It's not because you are carrying the weight, it's because you could be potentially carrying the weight.
Flow chart here -
http://trailerandcartraining.co.uk/images/Can I Tow.pdf
 
I have also struggled to get the definitive answer to this, having been told different things by the DVLA and by a friend in the police.

When I looked at it I thought that there were very few vehicle/trailer combinations that were going to be safe and within the legal restrictions. From what I have read, I have come to the same conclusions as Baileyhoss and Zoeshiloh that it is the combined MAM which matters, not the weight you are actually carrying.

It is very confusing. As far as I can understand from just looking again at the Direct Gov website, if the trailer is over 750ks then the combined MAM of both vehicle and trailer must not be more than 3.5tonnes, regardless of what weight is actually being carried. And the MAM of the trailer must not be more than the car's unladen weight.
 
alcraw said:
Oh heck, it's all a bit complicated for me.

Not sure about getting the trailer downgraded, as it's not actually mine... am thinking the only way to get around this is to stick the L plates on and get someone with a pre-1997 licence to come with me...
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And I'm afraid this isn't an option either as people who can tow through grandfather rights are no longer eligible to codrive a learner tower. Your co-driver must have passed the B&E test themselves and held that for a period of 3 years.
 
Oh bloody hell, I don't know anyone who's passed the B&E test! Everyone I know can tow on pre-1997 licences.... (serves me right for waiting until I was 20 to get my licence - just a few years earlier and I'd have been ok!)

The Direct Gov site says:

"As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle"

So it's a big ambiguous, because it doesn't say what happens when the trailer isn't fully loaded
 
That's because it doesn't matter if you haven't got the trailer fully loaded, You must take into account the fully loaded weight of the trailer, aka MAM of the trailer. Otherwise, it would say 'the weight of the trailer & it's current load, can't weigh more than the .....'
 
Baileyhoss said:
And I'm afraid this isn't an option either as people who can tow through grandfather rights are no longer eligible to codrive a learner tower. Your co-driver must have passed the B&E test themselves and held that for a period of 3 years.
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Disagree with this...

The followine statement from the BHS:

BHS warns drivers of new legislations
New driving licensing legislation revoking ‘grandfather rights’, to accompany learner drivers in small lorries, buses and vehicle plus trailer combinations will have a profound impact on the equestrian industry according to The British Horse Society.
From 6 April 2010 drivers who passed their car driving test before January 1997 will no longer be able to act as ‘supervising’ drivers to those learning to drive small lorries, buses and vehicle plus trailer combinations (but not car/horse trailer combinations i.e. Category B+E). Crucially for the equestrian industry this will include 7.5 tonne horse boxes.
In a response to questioning by The British Horse Society, the Driving Standards Agency stated: “Drivers who passed their car driving test before January 1997 were granted implied entitlement, sometimes known as ‘grandfather rights’, to drive small lorries, buses and vehicle plus trailer combinations. These are classed as categories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E and subject to certain restrictions.
“It should be noted that it was never the intention to allow learner drivers to drive a vehicle on public roads unless being supervised by a qualified driver who had passed a test for that category of vehicle.
 
From what I understand from my B+E examiner, the current law change means that those who passed pre 1997 can still supervise car + trailers (ie B+E) on grandfather rights, but cannot supervise anything over 3.5t lorry-wise (which scuppers a lot of those driving 7.5t on L plates) or anything with a combined towing vehicle/tow weight of 7.5t (ie C1+E) - this applies to those with 7.5t lorries or bigger towing a trailer beind as well.

However, the law is set to change again so that those towing (B+E) on grandfather rights will soon not be able to supervise - I don't think this has come in yet, but it is definately scheduled within the next year.
 
Sorry, tried to edit my post but having problems with the new forum keeping on logging me out.

Yep you are right, B+E not affected....yet.
F
 
alcraw said:
I have just rung the DVLA, who have assured me that I don't need to worry about the MAM for the horsebox. As long as the weight I am actually towing is 1500kg or less (ie less than the car and under 3500kg combined) - so 1000kg trailer plus up to 500kg horse and stuff, then I am okay and within my legal entitlement.
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Brilliant - now I just need to get my mare to drop a couple of hundred kilos and I'll be ok - sorted! ;-)
 
For those that think the MAM is of no relevance, think again.
Taken from the website, I've highlighted the important bit.
**********************
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

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This means to tow an ifor (2750kg mam approx)on a standad B licence the car would have to weigh at least 2751kg but then you fall foul of the max 3500kg combination weight.

Only way to do it legally is to have the trailer down rated.
 
zoeshiloh said:
From what I understand from my B+E examiner, the current law change means that those who passed pre 1997 can still supervise car + trailers (ie B+E) on grandfather rights, but cannot supervise anything over 3.5t lorry-wise (which scuppers a lot of those driving 7.5t on L plates) or anything with a combined towing vehicle/tow weight of 7.5t (ie C1+E) - this applies to those with 7.5t lorries or bigger towing a trailer beind as well.

However, the law is set to change again so that those towing (B+E) on grandfather rights will soon not be able to supervise - I don't think this has come in yet, but it is definately scheduled within the next year.
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Any Idea where I stand then ? Tow with a long wheel base high top transit. 3.5ton tow a rice old ish trailer with a 14hh welsh D and a 15hh Gypsy cob !!! So confused by all this. Im thinking all in all about 5.5 - 6 ton ???

I Tow supervised by someone who has grandfather rights ??? Am I illegal ???
 
Having not read every comment in this thread - due to brain fry, I will just add my bit - which may or maynot help the OP.
I have a ford mondeo 2l estate, 51 plate. Can't afford a 4 x 4 and KNOW FOR SURE that we can't tow a double ifor or a double rice due to the weight restrictions. We are however, able to tow a single ifor and this is what we do. We are within the law and we are happy with this arrangement - although obviously a single trailer has its down falls!
I have seen many 'small cars' towing a double trailer, and am pretty sure its not right - but thats there problem if they get caught and we don't want to risk it. Too be honest, people don't understand the ins and outs of this (me included). And this I wish was written in simple terms for us simple people to have a chance to get it right.
And for the record - I can't legally tow yet on my own, - I have a brilliant mum who i'd be lost without!!
 
OWLIE185 said:
Why not ring the VOSA Technical Expert on 01792 454245
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Please don't ring this number, I have just spoken to him and he has said that we need to call 0300 7906801 DVLA Drivers line.

Just to confirm, the man on the end of this line is very nice but cannot help or offer any advice other than to call the number have entered above.
 
As said earlier on this, the law declares it is the MAM of the trailer (maximum allowed mass) not the weight of the trailer plus load....

If people want to risk towing a double horse trailer with only one horse believing they are covered, then just think twice, IF it is proven in court (in the event of an accident) that you were not legally towing, you will have no insurance face a penalty fine and 9 points on your license, plus possibly be responsible for any costs to 3rd parties, as there won't be insurance to pay out.

This grey area of the law is open to interpretation, but it does state in black and white the MAM, so read it how you will, but be be sure of the risks.

I put of doing the B+E test for years as I hate test situations, I got a 3.5 tonne horsebox instead for a while, but today I finally did my test as I now have to tow a large trailer, and could no longer get away from the test!!

It's not a hard thing to do, and for the sake of a £115 test fee I'd rather have the peace of mind.
 
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