towing on a budget!

[chaps89]

Advance warning: lots of stupid questions likely! I have searched and read numerous previous threads but am just confusing myself hence my own post.

I currently have an 07 plate 1.6 astra which I lurve! However as much a I love it, it's not going to tow and I'd like to get out and about next year so am starting to look at options for a new vehicle.

First of all tho, please, an idiots guide to weight calculations- how can I tell a vehicles towing capacity (gwv?), what is MAM on a trailer and how do I calculate what's within the right limit? What difference does downplating make?

I don't have my B+E test yet but will be aiming to do so, but suggestions for both setups would be good please.

Would be to tow 1 x 500kg horse, trailer not yet purchased, may inherit my mums ifor 505 (about 10 years old) or buy myself.

Budget is going to be about £3k for car, £1k for trailer. Is this going to be feasible or do I need to aim to save more? Obviously if I spend less on one ill have more to spend on the other.

I would rather avoid an estate car as I only have a normal sized parking space (designated) with my flat and it's by the parking entrance/exit so can't stick out too far, plus when I've driven my dad's audi a6 it's felt too big for comfort!

I will be using the car for commuting and do 20-25k miles pa, so it must be economical on fuel/tyres/maintenance/repairs/tax etc as well as comfortable. Think this likely to be my biggest issue!

Doesn't need to be 4x4 I don't think as will mostly be used to go places with permament parking but I am in the surrey hills and whilst I can avoid most hilly routes, our yard is on a steep driveway at the top of a hill so will need enough 'oomph' to handle this.

Is this likely to be possible to find a setup within budget doing what I need it do when I'm not towing or do I need to hold out for a while longer to save more money/earn more to cover the extra costs!

 

[*hic*]

For your budget you're going to struggle - you could look at an older Skoda Octavia hatch and an IW 401. You'd be getting around 50mpg so reasonable for your mileage and it's the same size as an A4 so would feel smaller than the A6 estate.

As for weights and dims - google is your friend.

 

[Annagain]

You may be able to tow without taking the B+E test if you choose the right vehicle and trailer. As long as the gross vehicle weight (GVW) and the trailer's Maximum Allowable Mass (MAM) don't exceed 3500kg, you don't need B+E. So as an example, you could buy a car with a 2000kg GVW and a towing capacity of say, 1800kg. If you then use your mum's 505, that weighs 900kg and has a MAM of 2300kg. If you had a B+E you could then tow this setup with up to 900kg of horse on it and be within the 1800 tow capacity. However to avoid the B+E test, you can down plate the trailer to 1500kg (simple and relatively cheap process but manufacturer still has to be in business) to keep the GVW+MAM below 3500kg and that still gives you 600kg of leeway to put the horse on. Other trailers are even lighter so would give you more load capacity if you need it or if you just want to have a lighter set up.

That could save you some cash to put towards the vehicle. I'm not great at recommending vehicles but I'd go for something with as big a GVW and towing capacity as you can that will still keep you under the 3500kg if you want to avoid the B+E test. If you want to do the test, that opens up more choices but it sounds like for the sort of towing and other driving you'll be doing you could manage without.

ETA - missed the bit about the steep hill, maybe you will need something a bit bigger.

 

[ROG]

You may be able to tow without taking the B+E test if you choose the right vehicle and trailer. As long as the gross vehicle weight (GVW) and the trailer's Maximum Allowable Mass (MAM) don't exceed 3500kg, you don't need B+E. So as an example, you could buy a car with a 2000kg GVW and a towing capacity of say, 1800kg. If you then use your mum's 505, that weighs 900kg and has a MAM of 2300kg. If you had a B+E you could then tow this setup with up to 900kg of horse on it and be within the 1800 tow capacity. However to avoid the B+E test, you can down plate the trailer to 1500kg (simple and relatively cheap process but manufacturer still has to be in business) to keep the GVW+MAM below 3500kg and that still gives you 600kg of leeway to put the horse on. Other trailers are even lighter so would give you more load capacity if you need it or if you just want to have a lighter set up.

Very well put

For any more info on licences and weights go to post number 2000 in the first link in my signature below

 

[chaps89]

I think I am being thick!
When you say gvw and mam not exceeding 3500kg, do you mean together? Eg, vehicle gvw is 2000kg, does the trailer mam need to 1500kg so as no more than 3500kg or on their own they cannot exceed 3500kg? In which instance my mums ifor (for example) wouldn't be suitable?

So for example, if I had a vehicle with 2000kg gvw and wanted to tow with the ifor, it is more than 3500kg so I either have to do b+e in which case this makes it ok so long as I stay within towing capacity of vehicle, or I downplate the trailer and can tow without doing b+e?

What does downplating actually physically do? As it is my mums trailer I'm not sure I'd do this tbh.

I will probably do the test as gives me flexibility for the future if circumstances/vehicle/horse etc change, plus towing makes me feel quite apprehensive so would definitley want lessons beforehand and the test would let me have peace of mind I'm doing it right if that makes sense.

How can I check gvw/towing capacity of a vehicle? From posts on here gather it is on v5 but presume there is a way of checking prior to having to go see vehicle/v5 to find out!

Through searches ford mondeo, vauxhall vectra and skoda octavia may all be suitable depending on the model, am I right or way off? Would they have enough 'oomph' for hills- how do I tell a vehicle will be meaty enough?

Rog- I can't seem to see your signature?! Would you mind posting the link and I will check the post you suggest (have read a lot of your threads today!)

Sorry for the millions of questions- towing is new to me so am trying to get my head round it from scratch!

 

[ROG]

I think I am being thick!
When you say gvw and mam not exceeding 3500kg, do you mean together? Eg, vehicle gvw is 2000kg, does the trailer mam need to 1500kg so as no more than 3500kg or on their own they cannot exceed 3500kg? In which instance my mums ifor (for example) wouldn't be suitable?

So for example, if I had a vehicle with 2000kg gvw and wanted to tow with the ifor, it is more than 3500kg so I either have to do b+e in which case this makes it ok so long as I stay within towing capacity of vehicle, or I downplate the trailer and can tow without doing b+e?

What does downplating actually physically do? As it is my mums trailer I'm not sure I'd do this tbh.

I will probably do the test as gives me flexibility for the future if circumstances/vehicle/horse etc change, plus towing makes me feel quite apprehensive so would definitley want lessons beforehand and the test would let me have peace of mind I'm doing it right if that makes sense.

How can I check gvw/towing capacity of a vehicle? From posts on here gather it is on v5 but presume there is a way of checking prior to having to go see vehicle/v5 to find out!

Through searches ford mondeo, vauxhall vectra and skoda octavia may all be suitable depending on the model, am I right or way off? Would they have enough 'oomph' for hills- how do I tell a vehicle will be meaty enough?

Rog- I can't seem to see your signature?! Would you mind posting the link and I will check the post you suggest (have read a lot of your threads today!)

Sorry for the millions of questions- towing is new to me so am trying to get my head round it from scratch!

Licences work on the maximum plated weights
A vehicle GVW (MAM) means the maximum weight it can be when fully loaded
Trailer MAM means the same
The total MAM of the two must not add up to more than 3500 for B towing

If you know the EXACT model you are intending to buy then you can find the GVW online from a google search or ask the seller what the GVW is

For excessive hills then the only way you will know if the vehicle has enough GRUNT when towing is to try it but for normal hills they are designed to tow the listed towing capacity weight

When a trailer is down plated by contacting the trailer manufacturer it means the max the trailer can be when fully loaded (MAM) is reduced but nothing else changes so taking a HB505 which weighs 900 empty and is plated at 2340 can be down plated from 2340 to 1500
Plated MAM minus empty weight = the max it can be loaded with providing the vehicle max towing capacity is able to cope with that.

Once a vehicle is down plated then the only way it can be changed again is to contact the trailer manufacturer
Each time the plated is changed it costs from about £10 to £50 and you or someone you know needs to remove the plate on the trailer and put the new one on - a drill and pop rivet gun are usually needed

Here is the link = http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195

 

[ROG]

I will try and do two simple examples ...

Towing under B+E rules
Vehicle GVW = does not matter
Vehicle towing capacity = 1800
Trailer MAM = 2500
Trailer empty = 1000
Max load for trailer = 800 (1800-1000=800)

Towing under B rules
Vehicle GVW = 2200
Vehicle towing capacity = 1800
Trailer MAM = 1300 (was 1600 but down plated via manufacturer)
Trailer empty = 800
Max load for trailer = 500 (1300-800=500)
Legal for B because 2200+1300=3500 so not over the 3500 limit

 

[Fiona]

Skoda Octavias tow brilliantly. ... Thoroughly recommend especially the 4x4 one we have. .

Fiona

 

[Moon Dancer]

Correct me if i am wrong but i thought the car needed to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer regardless of what you actually put in it. So ROGs example of the vehicle towing capacity being 1800 and the trailers MAM being 2500 would be illegal, or am i wrong?

 

[ROG]

Correct me if i am wrong but i thought the car needed to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer regardless of what you actually put in it. So ROGs example of the vehicle towing capacity being 1800 and the trailers MAM being 2500 would be illegal, or am i wrong?

You are incorrect - there is no law or rule which states that a towing capacity or GTW must be able to cope with the trailer or combination MAM

Plenty of internet myths though !!

If those myths were true then as the same laws apply to all classes of vehicle the trailers towed by artic units would have to down and up plated a few times a day in some cases !!

 

[NikitaFellows]

Hi,

I took my B+E test in January this year, and did a HUGE amount of reading up beforehand. Here is the important stuff I learnt in bullet points:

Don't bother trying to get out of doing the B+E by finding a combo which works... none do (about 2 combinations in existance squeak under, they're extorsionate and unsafe, and require you to find a single horse trailer). I read around it for ages and realised the moment I passed my test how glad I was that I decided to do it. For what you will spend on a car and trailer that just squeak under the limits, you will be out of pocket and delaying the problem until the next time you need to buy a car/trailer/new horse/want to take a friend with you. Also you won't be as safe as nothing you can get without the test really has the capacity you need to tow safely. It cost me £500 to do lessons and my test (passed second time), in my own car.

Onto the next point; It's less about what you can tow and much more about your brakes. You need brakes when towing horses and don't really want to be too near capacity. You don't NEED a 4x4, but you will be damn thankful for one. The risks of towing with something that isn't up to it terrifies me. It's your horse in there at the end of the day. You'll also be glad of a 4x4 the minute you have to park anywhere other than a beautiful flat tarmac surface. Towed with an Audi Quattro once, vowed never again as the tractor was pulling us out!

The running costs of towing aren't cheap... if you can't really afford to buy the vehicle/trailer/test, you're probably not going to travel much.

Towing generally is an expensive business. I have an 07 plate Freelander, Ifor 505 and a skinny, whippeys TB who I usually travel alone. I get around 24mpg on average towing. I expect to pay at least £20 to tow him 40 mins to a lesson/event and 40 mins back. Travel to a lesson a week, 2 comps a month... £120 just on fuel to tow.

And with the pessimistic bit over... do the test and go for it! It's the best thing I've ever done for myself and for my riding. Just don't expect to have any money, not that you ever do when you have horses, but y'know.

 

[ROG]

Hi,

I took my B+E test in January this year, and did a HUGE amount of reading up beforehand. Here is the important stuff I learnt in bullet points:

Don't bother trying to get out of doing the B+E by finding a combo which works... none do (about 2 combinations in existance squeak under, they're extorsionate and unsafe, and require you to find a single horse trailer). I read around it for ages and realised the moment I passed my test how glad I was that I decided to do it. For what you will spend on a car and trailer that just squeak under the limits, you will be out of pocket and delaying the problem until the next time you need to buy a car/trailer/new horse/want to take a friend with you. Also you won't be as safe as nothing you can get without the test really has the capacity you need to tow safely.

That is totally untrue and I would like to know where you got that incorrect info ???

You are very welcome to have that personal opinion but to state it as a fact is not the right thing to do

Loads on this site tow safely with a B licence set up - if we look at caravan sites as well then that number greatly increases

 

[NikitaFellows]

I spent a long time reading around it but can't remember exactly where everything I read was, but that was the conclusion. I don't mean to be telling anyone it's hard and fast that you won't get anything under. You're the towing expert and I don't doubt if you say it can be done then it can but I certainly never found a combo i'd be happy with that was financially viable (everything worked out at the same or more than the test plus B+E set up). I looked at a Suzuki (can't remember model) and Ifor 503 which was the nearest I got, but the prices were so high it was far more sensible to do the test, buy the car and trailer I really wanted and not have to worry a few years down the line when I needed a new car.
I also maintain I wouldn't tow my horse in many of the setups I see, whether trying to stay on a B license or otherwise. It's just not worth the risk.

 

[ROG]

I spent a long time reading around it but can't remember exactly where everything I read was, but that was the conclusion. I don't mean to be telling anyone it's hard and fast that you won't get anything under. You're the towing expert and I don't doubt if you say it can be done then it can but I certainly never found a combo i'd be happy with that was financially viable (everything worked out at the same or more than the test plus B+E set up). I looked at a Suzuki (can't remember model) and Ifor 503 which was the nearest I got, but the prices were so high it was far more sensible to do the test, buy the car and trailer I really wanted and not have to worry a few years down the line when I needed a new car.
I also maintain I wouldn't tow my horse in many of the setups I see, whether trying to stay on a B license or otherwise. It's just not worth the risk.

What extra risk ?

Set ups can be B or B+E with no extra risk associated with one over the other = that is a fact

 

[peaceandquiet1]

Skoda Octavias tow brilliantly. ... Thoroughly recommend especially the 4x4 one we have. .

Fiona

Fiona what towing capacity does your Octavia have please?

 

[Fiona]

Fiona what towing capacity does your Octavia have please?

I honestly can't remember

I'll look in the manual when hubby comes home..

Fiona

 

[Fiona]

Fiona what towing capacity does your Octavia have please?

But a wee Google gives 2000kg for our 4x4 model with others being 1800kg...

Fiona

 

[Azabache]

When I first got my trailer I used to tow my 15hh (500kg ish) horse with a Ford Mondeo saloon and then with an X-TYPE Estate. Both cars were up to the job in terms of weight and were fine on smooth roads but coming down steep hills was rather frightening (it felt like I was being pushed rather than towing). Also I almost always had to take the horse out of the trailer to get off a field and forget it if the field was really muddy I just wouldn't even go. These days I tow with a Freelander and the difference is immense. I still hate towing but don't feel like I'm on the edge of the car's limits. If a car is your only option I would avoid rear wheel drive cars as your chances of getting off a field are greatly reduced.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If a car is your only option I would avoid rear wheel drive cars as your chances of getting off a field are greatly reduced.

Agree that RWD cars are rubbish on grass, but FWDs can struggle with hill starts (more likely to spin the wheels). OP, a 4x4 Octavia sounds like a good bet, a lot of vets seem to use them so they must be tough and economical.

 

[ROG]

Skoda Octavia 4x4 was 2014 towcar of the year and many use that to tow a single or lightweight horse trailer, usually down plated, with one horse on a B licence without any safety or driving issues

 

[Annagain]

Skoda Octavia 4x4 was 2014 towcar of the year and many use that to tow a single or lightweight horse trailer, usually down plated, with one horse on a B licence without any safety or driving issues

I think that will be a bit expensive for the OP but maybe older (non 4x4) Skodas would be an option. An 1800kg towing capacity would be plenty for one 500kg horse in a lightweight trailer.

 

[turnbuckle]

Sure that a car/trailer combo which will do the job without taking the B+E CAN be found.....but I do think it's going to be tight on the budget you have. And if a car is towing near the limit of it's capacity that will have an effect on clutch wear and other consumables.

So might just be worth looking at keeping the day car (assuming it's sound) and getting a cheap as chips thirsty old barge to tow with. OK, tax and insurance will be high...but in many ways it's a better solution. Especially if your part of the country is at all hilly!

 

[peaceandquiet1]

Turnbuckle have you any suggestions as to suitable "thirsty old barges" as I am considering whether two cars might be better than one.

 

[Always-Riding]

I have to agree with a previous poster.

Is there a reason why you don't want to do the B+E test? (Haven't read all the thread so apologies if I'm repeating.)

I did the test as after a lot of research I just wasn't happy taking the risk - and I did practice driving with a trailer and needed help!

 

[turnbuckle]

Big Japanese things - Shoguns, Landcruisers, that sort of thing - or even a cosmetically tired Range Rover. From memory tax is c £265 a year and insurance about £300. But with luck you can pick up the vehicle for £1500 or even less - but there is a lot of rubbish out there, so you really do need to have (or make) a friend who knows what they're doing when choosing one!

 

[Annagain]

I have to agree with a previous poster.

Is there a reason why you don't want to do the B+E test? (Haven't read all the thread so apologies if I'm repeating.)

I did the test as after a lot of research I just wasn't happy taking the risk - and I did practice driving with a trailer and needed help!

OP is happy to do the test, I just suggested that, given her budget and towing requirements, not doing the test might be a viable alternative. This would save a bit more money which could then go towards buying a newer / more reliable car.

 

[Always-Riding]

OP is happy to do the test, I just suggested that, given her budget and towing requirements, not doing the test might be a viable alternative. This would save a bit more money which could then go towards buying a newer / more reliable car.

Oh, thanks - hadn't read that bit!

If I were in your shoes OP, I would take Annagain's advice of putting that little bit extra into a car, and then save up to do the test in the future.

I'd also really consider the cost of running a gas guzzler, as I've found out, it's too expensive on my daily commute

Have you considered a 3.5t instead?

 

[Fiona]

Our skoda octavia tows onto and off grass perfectly so far, as at pc there is only hardstanding parking for lorries so trailers are always on grass.

Fiona

 

[Frumpoon]

Ok really sorry haven't had time to review previous posts but have been in similar position re funds

Would def recommend doing the extra licence

Then look at old Japanese 4x4 such as shogun, bighorn etc, best car I ever had was an Isuzu bighorn 3.1 td for £800, lasted ages, towed a house and drove it through a river with a ton of rubber matting on board

For a trailer get a rice, they are v cheap and way more robust than the ifor 510 and can be had for around 800-1200

 

[chaps89]

Thankyou all for the replies.
Lots to read and will take all points on board.
Trailer test will more than likely be done first and so car/trailer would follow (no point getting them sorted if I can't use them, lol)
I thought about a cheap old 4x4 but then really I may as well look at a 3.5ton box, would like to avoid 2 lots of tax/insurance/mot/tyres/repairs really. So it takes me back to a vehicle that is economical enough for daily use (I understand fuel economy goes out the window whilst actually towing- my dad would get 10mpg if he was lucky in the shogun with the trailer on the back, tho that is what comes of having a 3l v6 petrol!) with enough guts to tow.
Whatever I get I will be triple checking it is safe and I feel comfortable before doing putting pony on board, if it can't be done safely and I need to wait a while longer for finances to improve before towing then so be it
(in the meantime if there's anyone near guildford wanting to do a bit of transport sharing feel free to let me know )