Towing with an estate car, advice please

I have had it in writing from the DSA that your car only has to be capable of towing weight wise what you are ACTUALLY towing, not the maximum capacity. I'm afraid I have lost it though (now have 4x4 so didn't need it), but if you want confirmation, just call them.

So there are estates that can legally tow. Saab 95 for example can tow 1800kgs.
 
galaxy23 said:
I have had it in writing from the DSA that your car only has to be capable of towing weight wise.
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I agree to this as that is the only result I can come to having read the relevant legislation, however there are some that are adamant that this is wrong and are quick to ridicule those that are asking where their authority for a such an assertion is coming from.

The problem with the internet as a whole is there is a lot of heresay and rumour that takes on a life of it's own and manages to become established "fact".

I can understand why the calculation may be based on the MAM of the trailer however I cannot find ANY legislation or printed advise from either the DSA or VOSA that establish that fact, they all refer to the "weight" of the trailer. Something very different from the MAM or MGW.
 
LLBPhoto said:
I agree to this as that is the only result I can come to having read the relevant legislation, however there are some that are adamant that this is wrong and are quick to ridicule those that are asking where their authority for a such an assertion is coming from.

The problem with the internet as a whole is there is a lot of heresay and rumour that takes on a life of it's own and manages to become established "fact".

I can understand why the calculation may be based on the MAM of the trailer however I cannot find ANY legislation or printed advise from either the DSA or VOSA that establish that fact, they all refer to the "weight" of the trailer. Something very different from the MAM or MGW.
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I know. I did have it a few years ago, and did post the link on here. If anyone can be bothered to look back at old old old posts they would find it!

Or just phone the DSA! They'll email it to you.

Doesn't bother me what the doubters think.... I have seen it in black and white! ;)
 
galaxy23 said:
I know. I did have it a few years ago, and did post the link on here. If anyone can be bothered to look back at old old old posts they would find it!

Or just phone the DSA! They'll email it to you.

Doesn't bother me what the doubters think.... I have seen it in black and white! ;)
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Great post... I would love to know who started this rubbish even ifor willams seem to belive it but if you push them they say people ask for down plating but they could not quote the law and I had quite a heated debate on the phone!which ended with me saying if you are going to put infomation about laws on your web site maybe it would be a good idea to get all the facts right ....
 
perfect11s said:
Great post... I would love to know who started this rubbish even ifor willams seem to belive it but if you push them they say people ask for down plating but they could not quote the law and I had quite a heated debate on the phone!which ended with me saying if you are going to put infomation about laws on your web site maybe it would be a good idea to get all the facts right ....
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Didn't the down plating stuff start for people who need the new towing license cause if they can get the total trainweight under 3.5 tonnes they don't need to take the test? May be wrong, no idea. Sounds like Ifor need to speak to the DSA though!
 
I have a 2006 Mondeo estate and a fautras provan trailer.

Mondeo kerb weight = 1,425kg
Mondeo towing weight = 1,800kg
Trailer = 920kg unladen
Shadow = 365kg (weighed on scales)

More than adequate and as the Mondeo has self levelling it is a more enjoyable ride. I also had my licence downgraded due to medical reasons (used to drive lorries and tow all sorts!) so with the combination above I am legal as within 3.5t :D

When a friend wants to come along we use their 4x4... perfect!
 
Dont know what the legal standing is in UK, but in Ireland it's illegal to pull a box with a car, has to be 4x4. It only came in about a year ago and people still pull in a car, but once cops are told "we need money", they'll start enforcing it big time!!!! What is the legal standing in UK???
 
galaxy23 said:
Didn't the down plating stuff start for people who need the new towing license cause if they can get the total trainweight under 3.5 tonnes they don't need to take the test? May be wrong, no idea. Sounds like Ifor need to speak to the DSA though!
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Yes possibly... as it means otherwise you arent licenced to drive it because it could be over 3.5 tonne maybe the same reason you still need a hgv licence to drive a empty lorry even if it only weighs say 6 tons because it could legaly carry say 6 tons making it 12 tons gross....
 
galaxy23 said:
I have had it in writing from the DSA that your car only has to be capable of towing weight wise what you are ACTUALLY towing, not the maximum capacity. I'm afraid I have lost it though (now have 4x4 so didn't need it), but if you want confirmation, just call them.

So there are estates that can legally tow. Saab 95 for example can tow 1800kgs.
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As one who actually prefers to tow with a Volvo estate when only one pony aboard rather than the Landrover, I am minded to believe this. Perhaps this is just for those of us who passed their driving test pre 1997, all that MAM stuff seems to be more relevant for the newer drivers.

I just think that if I had been illegal or dangerous, as some of the "experts" on this thread claim I am, then at some point in the last 7 years I have been committing this alleged Cardinal Sin/Illegal and Dangerous Act, I would have been pulled over by the police and stuck on the weighbridge or whatever they do to prove you are illegal. My trailer is used a LOT - quite often several times a week, and the weighbridge is en route to my vets.
 
PennyJ said:
As one who actually prefers to tow with a Volvo estate when only one pony aboard rather than the Landrover, I am minded to believe this. Perhaps this is just for those of us who passed their driving test pre 1997, all that MAM stuff seems to be more relevant for the newer drivers.

I just think that if I had been illegal or dangerous, as some of the "experts" on this thread claim I am, then at some point in the last 7 years I have been committing this alleged Cardinal Sin/Illegal and Dangerous Act, I would have been pulled over by the police and stuck on the weighbridge or whatever they do to prove you are illegal. My trailer is used a LOT - quite often several times a week, and the weighbridge is en route to my vets.
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You might actualy be safer towing with a car !!! As they are lower to the ground and are more stable and kerb weight of big estates will be simalar to a smaller 4x4, however the downside may be that the tow hitch is a long way back from the axle not ideal for stability of the trailer (snaking), the gearing and traction may cause trouble if you encounter steep lanes or on grass.. other than that and keeping under the manufacturers max tow weight you should be good to go...
 
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I've towed with my Mazda6 diesel. It can tow 1900kg and is very economical, so use it for all my day-to-day driving.
So long as you carefully check the towning capacity and the weight of the trailer+horses, using a car rather than a 4x4 will be fine.
 
I tow with a saab 95 estate and i know i checked all the weights before hand, cant remember the website but when i added it all up i was well within the limits of towing with one horse.

I know some people get very over excited about towing with estates. However, as long as you do the maths etc there really doesnt have to be a problem.......
 
I would think that it will depend on the weight of your two ponies together plus the trailer weight. If these combined are more than your car weight it will mean that potentially you cannot spot easily down hill and the tail wags the dog as it were. In addition if the gross weight of the trailer loaded (shown on the tow hitch) is more than the cars maximum gross train weight or its tow weight (later models usually just have the gross train weight) you may be liable to an on the spot fine.

I towed with a mondeo, my pony weighing 450 kg and a ricahrdson rossette trailer for years. went all over the country doing endurance rides perfectly legally and perfectly safely! I now have a new mondeo but the manufactures have reduced the gross train weight so legally I can only tow a bateson Derby , cheval liberte or a down weighted trailer.

I agree that big 4x4's are the best in theory to tow if you are towing two big horses. However, a saloon or estate car is actually more stabe than a 4x4 as its center of gravity is lower and they tend to tow better on the motorways than a 4x4, plus the fuel cost wont bankrupt you. if you read H&H's own towing advice it clearly states that cars are fine to tow with and recent books on towing horse trailers they all make the point that a big saloon car with the correct weight trailer when loaded is a viable option.

My advice in addition to the above is to add up the weight of your two ponys, if their weight plus that of the trailer is more than 75 to 80% of the cars kerb weight then its a rsiky proposition to tow with a car.
 
hackedoff said:
I would think that it will depend on the weight of your two ponies together plus the trailer weight. If these combined are more than your car weight it will mean that potentially you cannot spot easily down hill and the tail wags the dog as it were. In addition if the gross weight of the trailer loaded (shown on the tow hitch) is more than the cars maximum gross train weight or its tow weight (later models usually just have the gross train weight) you may be liable to an on the spot fine.

I towed with a mondeo, my pony weighing 450 kg and a ricahrdson rossette trailer for years. went all over the country doing endurance rides perfectly legally and perfectly safely! I now have a new mondeo but the manufactures have reduced the gross train weight so legally I can only tow a bateson Derby , cheval liberte or a down weighted trailer.

I agree that big 4x4's are the best in theory to tow if you are towing two big horses. However, a saloon or estate car is actually more stabe than a 4x4 as its center of gravity is lower and they tend to tow better on the motorways than a 4x4, plus the fuel cost wont bankrupt you. if you read H&H's own towing advice it clearly states that cars are fine to tow with and recent books on towing horse trailers they all make the point that a big saloon car with the correct weight trailer when loaded is a viable option.

My advice in addition to the above is to add up the weight of your two ponys, if their weight plus that of the trailer is more than 75 to 80% of the cars kerb weight then its a rsiky proposition to tow with a car.
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Oh dear!!!!?????? did you bother to read the other posts ???? you know the ones which quote the law not some mythical rule from the internet sorry but respectfully your post is bovine scatter......
 
hackedoff said:
legally I can only tow a bateson Derby , cheval liberte or a down weighted trailer.
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Ok my understanding, after Reading the legislation and the printed advice from VOSA is this, you cannot exceed the Maximum Train Weight (MTW) of the towing vehicle. Your train weight is calculated by adding the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of the towing vehicle (your car or 4X4) to the weight of the trailer, this is the actual weight and not the MAM (GVW) of the trailer. The MAM of the trailer is only relevant for the purposes of establishing the maximum load it can have, driving licence purposes and road signs (such as bridge weight limits) in which case the MAM of the towing vehicle should be added to the trailer MAM. If the MAM of the combination (Both MAMs added together) exceeds 3.5 tonnes or if the MAM of the trailer exceeds the Unladen weight of the towing vehicle the you would require a B+E licence.

So if your vehicle has a MAM of 2000kgs and a MTW of 3400kgs the maximum weight you can tow is 1400kgs, it doesn't matter if the MAM of the trailer is 2600kgs as long as the actual weight doesn't exceed 1400kgs. However because the MAM of the trailer exceeds the Unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the combination MAM exceeds 3.5 tonnes you would need B+E entitlements in order to tow the combination.
In order to tow the above combination with on B entitlement the trailer would have to have a MAM of less than the Unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the combination MAM to under 3.5 tonnes. This is the situation in which the trailer would need to have it's MAM reduced by replateing it.

People are definitely getting confused between licence entitlement and requirements and the rules governing construction and use.

I have now confirmed that this interpretation of the law is correct and as used by VOSA and the courts.

In order to work out the legality of your combination you need to know the following.

1: towing vehicles MGW (MAM)
2: towing vehicles MTW
3: towing vehicles Unladen weight
4: actual weight of trailer and load
5: MAM of trailer.
 
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Wow, this has turned into a bunfight! Lots of Google authorities and experts. Of course you can tow with a car. Reading between the lines. If you have a fair sized car, there's a 99% chance you'll be okay (1800/1900kgs). I (back in the day) towed with a Peugeot 505 estate (big and heavy) it was much more stable than the Land Rover Discovery that superseded it.
 
perfect11s said:
Oh dear!!!!?????? did you bother to read the other posts ???? you know the ones which quote the law not some mythical rule from the internet sorry but respectfully your post is bovine scatter......
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stating someones post is bovine scatter is not respectful. It is illegal to tow with a vehicle with a gross train weight below that of the gross max weight of the trailer.
 
perfect11s said:
Oh dear!!!!?????? did you bother to read the other posts ???? you know the ones which quote the law not some mythical rule from the internet sorry but respectfully your post is bovine scatter......
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Dear Pefect 11's terming somebodys post as bovine scatter is not respectful. Perhaps you should become familair with forum ettiquette.

I double checked the vosa website and it supports my comments as does LBBPhotos comments. In my case with a mondeo with a gross train weight the same as mine I have to have a trailer which is plated with a gross capacity of 1600Kg as a heavier trailer would be capable of exceeding its gross train weight, and to state the obvious, the trailer when loaded is 1600kg or less.

I am buying either a Bateson Derby, cheval 200XL or a richardson down platated to 1600 max gross weight as the weight of these and my pony combined will be less than the 1600Kg my mondeo can tow when looking at its gross train weight, and is actaully going to weigh physically less than the trailers gross weight when laden.

I do think its a shame that a useful thread like this has been side tracked by a few....
 
hackedoff said:
stating someones post is bovine scatter is not respectful. It is illegal to tow with a vehicle with a gross train weight below that of the gross max weight of the trailer.
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sorry but if people keep giving out wrong infomation someone has to say something!!! it is the ACTUAL weight that matters not the design weight
the only way they can "do" you is to take you to a weighbridge and prove your combination
is unsafe... there is no reason you cant tow a empty 3.5 ton trailer that weighs say 1000kg
with a car that can only tow 1.5 ton if you have full trailer intitlement on your licence...
 
hackedoff said:
Dear Pefect 11's terming somebodys post as bovine scatter is not respectful. Perhaps you should become familair with forum ettiquette.

I double checked the vosa website and it supports my comments as does LBBPhotos comments. In my case with a mondeo with a gross train weight the same as mine I have to have a trailer which is plated with a gross capacity of 1600Kg as a heavier trailer would be capable of exceeding its gross train weight, and to state the obvious, the trailer when loaded is 1600kg or less.

I am buying either a Bateson Derby, cheval 200XL or a richardson down platated to 1600 max gross weight as the weight of these and my pony combined will be less than the 1600Kg my mondeo can tow when looking at its gross train weight, and is actaully going to weigh physically less than the trailers gross weight when laden.

I do think its a shame that a useful thread like this has been side tracked by a few....
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please re read and absorb what LLBphoto wrote!!! Im sorry but if you are going to post an opinion or missinfomation on an open forum then you have to expect sooner or later someone else may dissagree with it!!! that is how the internet and the wider world works IE fair debate and hopefully arrive at a consesus ...
 
super. Perfect11s and LLBPhoto both agree so can we put this to bed please.

I tow with my ford scorpio estate. One horse, light weight Rice trailer. everything is fine.

As I said in an earlier thread just today people on the continent do this all the time. It is a very British obsession to be caught up on 4x4s

I'd pick a decent estate over a freelander any day of the week and your weights are about the same too but how many people spaz over people using the Landy? None at all.
 
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