Town and County planning act - help

[Boodles79]

We purchased our home in November, it has 1.2 acres behind house and some stables adjacent to the house. The stables near the house are very close to neighbors. They have complained about the noise on occasions, and we put down rubber matting and informed them we were moving stables to bottom of field away from all residential properties. They seemed happy. Today we received a letter from the council about a town and county act - the change of use of field to rear of property for equestrian use and stable block. Does anyone have any experience of this, is it easy to apply for? We rightly or wrongly assumed that as there was a paddock and stables there already that it had been used for horses in the past. We are worried sick, we made this move to have the ponies at home.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You will need to apply for planning permission to build stables in the field. TBH, unless your ponies are particularly noisy, I would ignore the neighbours' complaints. The stables have obviously been there for a while and presumably the correct searches were done by your conveyancer, so the existing stables either don't need pp or were granted it previously.

Experience tells me 'don't try to keep the neighbours happy, as they will make and more demands'. Obviously don't hold loud parties in your stables though.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Do the stables have planning permission in their original position, close to the house? How long have they been there?

 

[AmyMay]

Wasn’t this checked by your solicitor prior to purchase?

 

[Boodles79]

Yes we told solicitor we were buying to specifically keep horses there is nothing in our deeds that says we can’t. But obviously there are laws - if you do more than simply graze horses you need to apply for a change of use, whether it was the moaning neighbours who reported us to council for keeping them or not, the fact remains we are likely to have to apply for a change of use, from field, to equestrian.

 

[Boodles79]

Do the stables have planning permission in their original position, close to the house? How long have they been there?

I don’t know, there has always been a structure there, we have an Aearial photo from the 70’s and you can see them.

 

[Boodles79]

You will need to apply for planning permission to build stables in the field. TBH, unless your ponies are particularly noisy, I would ignore the neighbours' complaints. The stables have obviously been there for a while and presumably the correct searches were done by your conveyancer, so the existing stables either don't need pp or were granted it previously.

Experience tells me 'don't try to keep the neighbours happy, as they will make and more demands'. Obviously don't hold loud parties in your stables though.

I totally agree. But now the council are coming around I am so worried, we brought the house to keep the ponies with us.

 

[catkin]

You must double check this-
There are different classes of use for land and planning permission must be sought to change from one to another.
I would guess that the field is classed as agricultural (which means that you can graze horses on it but nothing else) and the stables are outside of the field. If you want to move the stables to the field then, yes, it is a change of use to equestrian so the council is only asking what is the law. When you bought the property the planning status of the existing stables should have been checked by your solicitor.

ETA If you are a gold member of the BHS ring their legal helpline

 

[Boodles79]

I think that’s it. It’s probably classed as agricultural - we can graze it but can’t hard feed or rug horses using it... so we thought we were doing the right thing Moving a field shelter into field away from house but what we’ve probably done is caused ourselves more problems.

 

[Boodles79]

We will have to apply for a change of use. But I don’t know if it’s easy.

 

[SEL]

I think that’s it. It’s probably classed as agricultural - we can graze it but can’t hard feed or rug horses using it... so we thought we were doing the right thing Moving a field shelter into field away from house but what we’ve probably done is caused ourselves more problems.

Have you moved the stables already? If everything is still where it is when you bought the place then I'd ask your solicitor what they think.

 

[Boodles79]

Yes we have.... they are on skids we never knew about a change of use act

 

[oldie48]

TBH I would move the stables back to where they were. If they are in the garden, I believe that that is not a problem. I think you can build a structure eg stables, in your garden without planning permission within certain parameters (look it up on the internet). If the field has been used for grazing horses in the past, that's not a problem either. I think the problem is your neighbours, unfortunately!

 

[Boodles79]

TBH I would move the stables back to where they were. If they are in the garden, I believe that that is not a problem. I think you can build a structure eg stables, in your garden without planning permission within certain parameters (look it up on the internet). If the field has been used for grazing horses in the past, that's not a problem either. I think the problem is your neighbours, unfortunately!

Well the field/garden is really one, it’s a long piece of land running 200meters to a brook. Horses to the left of us. (With stables) we will section off a bit up the top near the house as our garden.

 

[Boodles79]

That is meant to say our nice next door neighbours have horses on their land to the left of us with stables

 

[Cahill]

you need to find out the `curtiledge` of the dwelling house,this is the garden and stables are allowed in the garden as incidental to enjoyment of the property.if a house comes with a paddock,often the paddock is not classes as curtiledge only the garden is.
you have more right to build things in a garden.
it is all available to read in the town and country planning act,just a matter of trawling through it all.

 

[Gift Horse]

Did the people you bought the house from keep horses?
If you can prove that the stables and the field have been used for the ‘keeping of horses’ continually for 10yrs then the use is lawful and you don’t need to do anything about change of use of the land.

 

[Boodles79]

Did the people you bought the house from keep horses?
If you can prove that the stables and the field have been used for the ‘keeping of horses’ continually for 10yrs then the use is lawful and you don’t need to do anything about change of use of the land.

No they didn’t the next door neighbour with horses has grazed the land in the past

 

[Gift Horse]

Google earth has dated images (often good enough to see horses on) If horses were grazing the field 10 years ago and you show the officer you may not need to apply for pp.
Ask the officer the best course of action to resolve the situation when they visit.
If you do need to apply for planning permission you need a simple scale drawing of the land and buildings and you will have to pay £462 (change of use fee) if you are finding it stressful you could ask a planning consultant to give you a quote for sorting it out for you.

 

[Boodles79]

Google earth has dated images (often good enough to see horses on) If horses were grazing the field 10 years ago and you show the officer you may not need to apply for pp.
Ask the officer the best course of action to resolve the situation when they visit.
If you do need to apply for planning permission you need a simple scale drawing of the land and buildings and you will have to pay £462 (change of use fee) if you are finding it stressful you could ask a planning consultant to give you a quote for sorting it out for you.

Oh my goodness it’s so stressful. That’s a good idea, although, I can’t seem to work out how to get old images. Will keep trying.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well the field/garden is really one, it’s a long piece of land running 200meters to a brook. Horses to the left of us. (With stables) we will section off a bit up the top near the house as our garden.

Until you get this sorted out don't section a garden off the rest of the land, as the land is still within your curtilage. Put everything back where it was when you moved in. I doubt that you will need change of use, as if the stables were existing, there must have been horses on the land before. You can rug horses on grazing land but you can't leave jumps up and you are not meant to give them hard feed although that doesn't make sense as sheep and cattle are often given hard feed in fields. Anyway you can always bring your horses into the stables to feed them. You could always get a few sheep to keep the land agricultural, if you have enough land.

I think your biggest problem is your unpleasant neighbours.

 

[Gift Horse]

Oh my goodness it’s so stressful. That’s a good idea, although, I can’t seem to work out how to get old images. Will keep trying.

Has to be google Earth not google maps.

 

[VRIN]

If you have photos of the existing stables from the 70s you def don't need planning permission for these.

 

[Boodles79]

If you have photos of the existing stables from the 70s you def don't need planning permission for these.

Yes we have, but the moaning neighbours said that they were causing them issues, as adjacent to their kitchen, it is basically attached to their house, so we decided to turn those into offices and move the stables away from the properties down to the bottom of the garden. Trying to do best, but I think the moaning neighbours hve complained before they realised we were moving the stables, so have potentially shot themselves in the foot!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Yes we have, but the moaning neighbours said that they were causing them issues, as adjacent to their kitchen, it is basically attached to their house, so we decided to turn those into offices and move the stables away from the properties down to the bottom of the garden. Trying to do best, but I think the moaning neighbours hve complained before they realised we were moving the stables, so have potentially shot themselves in the foot!

Well that serves them right!

 

[Velcrobum]

OK
1 Ask your horsey next doors when and for how long they grazed horses on the "paddock" if possible ask them to make a statement for you.
2 You say the stables are on skids so they are mobile structures which in theory do not need planning permission, some authorities are more difficult than others but mobile is mobile when it comes to planning permission.
3 If indeed the curtilage is all deemed as garden you do not as far as I am aware need PP to put up stables anywhere on the land.
4 Moaning neighbours have no rights over your garden and what you do in it even if their kitchen adjoins it.
5 Keep a diary of their complaints so you have a record of them being unreasonable. If they escalate the complaints they will have to declare them when they come to sell.
6 Pre-empt the planning people, go and see them at their office for a face to face meeting, take all your evidence photographs, copies of deeds, horsey neighbours statement etc and ask them for help (that can be very useful as they do not want to up their workload!!)
7 If you do need to do a change of use ie planners say it is not garden this is very very easy. I have a small holding so when I wanted to put in an arena I did a PP for erection of arena and change of use from agricultural to equestrian. That way I can legit leave jumps in it in practice our local authority is fairly relaxed about that as have never had a complaint when jumps on agricultural land.

Lastly and most importantly you have done nothing wrong you are unfortunate to have difficult neighbours who appear to be bullying you. It is your home and garden to do with as you wish within reason.

 

[PeterNatt]

I would instruct a surveyor to act on behalf of your interests. I have experience of getting change of use from Agricultural to Equestrian usage, however it sounds that in your case that the fields have been used for equestrian use for many years and theerfore you have established equestrian use but a surveyor can assist you. As regards the stables you will probably need planning permission to erect stables but again a surveyor can advise you.

 

[Blazingsaddles]

Makes me wonder if the previous owners didn’t legally declare any issues with your neighbour.....

 

[Dynamo]

Good advice from Velcrobum. I'd say don't panic. I've been in this situation. In our case we got an old chap who used to shoot on our land to sign a statement to say that there had been stables and horses on it for at least 40 years that he could remember. That was literally all it took for the problem to go away. No surveyors or anything. Put the stables back where they were, use the photograph, though you don't even need that if they are in the curtilage of the property, and you could either ask the horsey neighbour for a statement, or use the fact that you are only 'grazing' on the land. Don't worry. If it turns out after all that things are not quite as you think, you can then apply for change of use/planning permission and engage a professional, but see what the council has to say first.

 

[sport horse]

Get a load of pigs and put them in the field next to your moaning neighbour. They are agricultural and they stink so just maybe they will decide they prefer the horses!! As regards 'established use' is it 10 years for stables/equestrian use? It is for residential development but I think it is possibly only 4 years for stables etc. If you can prove with statutory declarations from people, that it has been used for equestrian use not agricultural then you only need to apply for a 'certificate of lawfulness' and as for the stables that have been there since the 70's I would challenge the planning department to take you to court! You would defo win that one.