Toy Poodle Bitch to a Miniature Poodle Stud - Yes or No?!

[mollymurphy]

Just wondering if the pups would be too big for the bitch, or if they would just grow to what could fit, then make up for it after birth (assuming they are going to be bigger than toys)? Does that make sense?! It did in my head! Would it be risky for the bitch...or the pups?

Lou. x

 

[K9Wendy]

Why would you want to do that? Wouldn't be purebred toys or purebred mins, as pedigree would show parents of 2 differents breeds!! Although you have have 3 sizes of poodle, each are individual breeds. Why not find a nice stud dog that suits your bitch?

 

[mollymurphy]

Oh yeah, no sorry - i wasn't very clear was i!

Lucy is a Lhasapoo (Lhasa Apso X Toy Poodle). The stud we've found for her is also a Lhasapoo, but he's cross Miniature Poodle. Just wondering if that's likely to pose any problems?

Cheers.

Lou.

 

[milor]

Why would you deliberately breed mongrels ? - there are enough of them produced accidentally- usually ending up in rescue centres all around the country !

 

[mollymurphy]

I was expecting this! We already have homes for 5 pups (doubt she'd have that many) and have been asked repeatedly to breed from her....like many other people do...with many other different animals...including horses! They will be going to a couple of neighbours and a few relatives and 100% will never end up in rescue shelters! We're hardly a puppy farm! Just want one litter as a one-off.
Yes, there are lots of unwanted dogs, cat, horses, etc. out there, but people will always breed more. And what does it matter that they're mongrals anyway?! They're all still dogs KC registered or not!

 

[Onyxia]

You allready have homes lined up so have obviously thought the pros and cons out, wont lecture you (besides, if you have good homes waiting IMO it doesnt matter how many breeds will be in the pups).

They shoud be OK, only have experiance of a smaller stud so cant offer any advice form experiance.
Supose it comes down to how big the size difference is.Your vet would be the best person to talk to since (s)he will be able to talk you through what would happen if you did have complications.

Good luck

 

[milor]

....'sigh' .... here we go again

- unless you have a really good reason to breed from your bitch then do not do so - there is a huge difference between breeding horses and dogs - including the simple logistics of the numbers of offspring each are able to produce and the fact that dogs will mostly live in our homes and therefore good temperament and health is vital.

These pups will come from untested and unknown parentage - you can have NO idea of the health issues behind them or indeed the temperament such a mating is likely to produce. You may well have homes lined up but believe me - what folk say and what they actually do are two very different things - just watch those homes magically disappear once the pups are born !.

As the breeder YOU will be responsible for the pups should things not work out - (I've had a dog back at the age of 8 years due to a marriage break up !) - but most importantly ask yourself WHY you are doing this ? - if it's just because you fancy having a litter of cute pups then please think again - can you imagine the numbers of pups involved if everyone with a bitch did this ?.

this may not be puppy farming but it is iresponsible breeding -

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Sorry that is rubbish IMHO. mollymurphy has obviously thought about this. I personally have seen more health and temperament problems in the pedigree dogs I have met (Springers, Cockers, Tollers, Labs and Rotties), than any of the mongrels I have owned. Why? Because some pedigree breeders put more thought into meeting the KC standard, than the health/temperament of the bitch/dog they are breeding from, or are just breeding for £££s.

IMO people, who deliberately breed crosses, do so for love, because they have a good natured, healthy bitch and find a good natured, healthy dog to mate with it.

The 'accidental' crosses obviously have no thought put in to them, because they are just that 'mistakes'. My 1st crosses mum was a very well breed Springer who’s owner managed to let escape whilst in season, the father was god knows who (probably a black retriever), fortunately she found homes for them all and their temp was O.K. I suspect all most all 'dodgy'/unwanted crosses are generated this way.

 

[prose]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry that is rubbish IMHO. mollymurphy has obviously thought about this. I personally have seen more health and temperament problems in the pedigree dogs I have met (Springers, Cockers, Tollers, Labs and Rotties), than any of the mongrels I have owned

[/ QUOTE ]

There are just as many unscrupulous pedigree owners about, that's true. I can't tell you how many Boston Terriers I come across that are hyper and uncontrollable, but I think being answerable to a breed group does go a long way. I carefully researched my breeder, who was fantastic. I have a pedigree dog that has been healthy and strong in every way, with a wonderful temperament, and wouldn't hesitate to get another.

There are tonnes of these hybrid dogs in NYC. Tonnes. Lhasa Poos, Maltipoos, Puggles, Goldendoodles, Schnoodles, Boggles. While some are undeniably cute, they are far from free from health issues. I volunteer for a rescue, and, now that the trend is waning a bit, they are starting to show up (especially puggles) with luxating patellas, skin allergies, in tow. My vet rescued a Goldendoodle. He tells everyone his dog his a wolfhound mix, because he can't stand all this random breeding for money.

A reputable breeder does not do it for money. There are plenty of pedigree breeders that do, of course, but not the good ones. They do it because they adore the breed and want to improve the standard -- and that includes temperament, through doing agility, obedience etc. in addition to conformation shows. It makes me uncomfortable that hybrid breeders simply have no-one to answer to.

 

[milor]

"IMO people, who deliberately breed crosses, do so for love".....love of what exactly ?...certainly not love of any particular breed or indeed love of the specific dogs they are breeding from. It's a sad fact that these 'designer crosses' are produced for one reason only ...to make money!. A good breeder breeds only to improve their breed..they.spend a FORTUNE on health testing....on travelling long distances often abroad to ensure the best possible blood lines are used to improve their stock. ..they supply a puppy contract which safeguards 'their' pups for the rest of their lives should the new owners be unable to keep them..they strive to.produce dogs that fit the blueprint of their breed so that new owners know what to expect from the finished adult...and are succesful producers of quality working or showing stock -they keep meticulous records so that any inherited problem can be eliminated - THATS responsible breeding and there are an awful lot of good breeders out there, you just need to take a little time and effort to find them !.


Take a good look round your nearest rescue centre I can guarantee it will not be full of well bred pedigree dogs - simply stuffed to the gills with all the puppy farmed GSD's/Staffy's and poodle crosses that their owners tired of when they started to moult ! - not to mention the offspring of all the pups born to bitches whose owners thought it would be a nice idea to have a cute litter of pups

Rant over !

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Yes sure if your talking about the dogs prose was discussing above (basically cross breed puppy farms), but mollymurphy I'm sure isn't proposing having a litter for £££s, just has a nice bitch and would like a litter from her.

Obviously no point in posting further as we won't agree, you will never convince me that the only good dogs are pedigrees. There are far more dud pedigree pooches out there than there are show champions. The KC have a lot to answer for IMO, how responsible is it to encourage the breeding of breeds to have such flat faces, they can't breath properly?

 

[mollymurphy]

Only just got chance to reply to all these, so here goes.....


[ QUOTE ]

These pups will come from untested and unknown parentage - you can have NO idea of the health issues behind them or indeed the temperament such a mating is likely to produce. You may well have homes lined up but believe me - what folk say and what they actually do are two very different things - just watch those homes magically disappear once the pups are born !.

As the breeder YOU will be responsible for the pups should things not work out - (I've had a dog back at the age of 8 years due to a marriage break up !) - but most importantly ask yourself WHY you are doing this ? - if it's just because you fancy having a litter of cute pups then please think again - can you imagine the numbers of pups involved if everyone with a bitch did this ?.

this may not be puppy farming but it is iresponsible breeding -

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't post this to start as debate - I just wanted to ask a simple question, but never mind.
Right, first of all, how on earth do you know the dogs are untested?! Or what their temperaments are like?! Because I know for a FACT that neither Lucy nor her stud have ANY health issues...unlike the majority of pure bred dogs. They have no heart defects, no eye problems, no hip dysplasia, they're not deaf, they're not so big that they'll die before they're 8, they're pups won’t have such big heads that they won’t be able to be born naturally...I could go on and on. No, they don't conform to any "breed standards", but they're conformation-perfect.

And as for the temperaments...you have never met such social and friendly dogs! Lucy has already assisted us with the hand-rearing of 3 litters of feral kittens - we fed them, but she did the rest, including toileting and letting them suckle. Her best friend is a rabbit! They both love everyone and everything...including the tiniest of children. They just ADORE attention. And they are SO obedient. I really cannot see how the pups will have any problems.

As for the homes - believe me, they're not going to "disappear"! Why would our own family do that?!

Surely this is how dogs SHOULD be bred?! Yet you say it's "irresponsible" of me to breed from Lucy. To produce pups that will have no health issues and have beautiful temperaments? Is it just me, or is that not a good thing? I am fully aware of the critical time periods for socialisation in dogs and how it is down to the breeder to ensure the pups are prepared for later life...and I can promise you now, they will be.
Also, I have studied the KC and breed standards to death for my degree, and quite frankly, I think it's disgusting how people can continue to breed from animals that are known to suffer from serious health problems. The Accredited Breeder Scheme is fine, but you don’t need to be one of these in order to register your pups with the KC – this needs to change.

If I’d have come on here and posed something about breeding from a pure-bred dog, I doubt that anyone would have had anything negative to say. Well I’m sorry for not doing so, but tough - I don’t agree with the genetic defects being bred into today’s pure-breds, so I would never breed from one.

 

[mollymurphy]

[ QUOTE ]

A reputable breeder does not do it for money. There are plenty of pedigree breeders that do, of course, but not the good ones. They do it because they adore the breed and want to improve the standard -- and that includes temperament, through doing agility, obedience etc. in addition to conformation shows. It makes me uncomfortable that hybrid breeders simply have no-one to answer to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also not doing this for money - like i've said, the pups will be going to friends and family.

And i'm not trying to say that all cross-breeds / mongrals are completely free from genetic defects / health problems, but their are less of them. I mean, just look at this link.

The breed societies are FULLY aware of the health problems that are most common with their breed of dog, yet nothing seems to be being done about it! (Appart from this ABS, but like i've already said, it's not essential to become one of these in order to register pups).

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

Lucy is going in for her annual vaccinations tomorrow, where she will also be receiving ANOTHER THOROUGH health check, to ensure that she is ok to breed from. I really am not that senseless.

 

[mollymurphy]

[ QUOTE ]
"IMO people, who deliberately breed crosses, do so for love".....love of what exactly ?...certainly not love of any particular breed or indeed love of the specific dogs they are breeding from. It's a sad fact that these 'designer crosses' are produced for one reason only ...to make money!. A good breeder breeds only to improve their breed..they.spend a FORTUNE on health testing....on travelling long distances often abroad to ensure the best possible blood lines are used to improve their stock. ..they supply a puppy contract which safeguards 'their' pups for the rest of their lives should the new owners be unable to keep them..they strive to.produce dogs that fit the blueprint of their breed so that new owners know what to expect from the finished adult...and are succesful producers of quality working or showing stock -they keep meticulous records so that any inherited problem can be eliminated - THATS responsible breeding and there are an awful lot of good breeders out there, you just need to take a little time and effort to find them !.


Take a good look round your nearest rescue centre I can guarantee it will not be full of well bred pedigree dogs - simply stuffed to the gills with all the puppy farmed GSD's/Staffy's and poodle crosses that their owners tired of when they started to moult ! - not to mention the offspring of all the pups born to bitches whose owners thought it would be a nice idea to have a cute litter of pups

Rant over !

[/ QUOTE ]

"certainly not love of any particular breed or indeed love of the specific dogs they are breeding from." Are you trying to say we don’t love our dog?!

Why on earth would you think that?!

Making money?! We are not going to be making money!!! Like I’ve said several times, the pups are going to friends and family!!

And what you've said about breeders of pure bred dogs, do you really believe that all breeders are like that?! How naive you must be... Yes, there are SOME genuine ones out there, but certainly not the majority, which is what you seem to be implying. And most breeders are exactly that - breeders! Their dogs are money-making machines. They don’t just have one-off litters, then have the bitches spayed and keep them as pets for the rest of their lives, like WE will be doing! Of course they're in it for the money!!

Oh, and as a matter of fact - i HAVE been to many a rescue shelter, and can honestly say there were no more mongrels than there were pure breds!

"...that their owners tired of when they started to moult" How pathetic!!! Do you really think people are unaware of the fact that MOST dogs moult!? And that once they did, they would send them to a rescue home?! Because i have certainly never heard of that!! Anyway, Lucy doesn’t moult, so that would never be a problem would it?!

 

[mollymurphy]

And finally, THANK YOU piebaldsparkle!! At least someone agrees with me.

x

 

[milor]

"Right, first of all, how on earth do you know the dogs are untested?! Or what their temperaments are like?! Because I know for a FACT that neither Lucy nor her stud have ANY health issues..."

...I know for a fact that your dogs are untested because the BVA health schemes only apply to KC registered pedigree dogs ! and the reasoning behind that is that without a traceable lineage then you cannot eliminate or significantly reduce health problems i.e unless you have the health records of the parents, grandparents g g grandparents etc then you do not know which dogs may be a carrier of say epliepsy which does not show itself until the dog is around 2yrs old. DNA testing is now available to highlight which dogs carry specific faults - it IS expensive but those breeders who are passsionate about improving their breed will use it.

Hip dysplasia and inherited cataracts cannot be assessed without testing and 'conformation perfect' is meaningless unless you have a blueprint to compare conformation by !. The sad fact is that cross breeds and mongrels have no health tests done and no health records kept therefore it is easy to falsly surmise that they carry no inherited faults - this of course is just nonsense - a GSD/Collie cross could very well carry inherited faults common to both breeds used ( i.e HD/Collie Eye Anomoly) - poodle crosses are very likely to have liver shunt problems ( poodle) and patella luxation ( Shitzu ). The oft mentioned 'hybrid vigour' only occurs in feral dogs where those who have significant problems simply die and therefore are unable to reproduce and pass on their faults ...in our 'civilised' world we do not allow this and so such dogs enter the gene pool ...cross breeds do not have any kind of improved hybrid vigour !.

Yes there are many bad breeders of pedigree dogs - but is is up to the general public to do their homework and only go to recommended breeders i.e through the breed clubs ..unfortunately many folk still tend to buy from ads found in publications such as Ad trader or Loot ( where many puppy framers advertise) or want a cheap unregistered version of their chosen breed ...again playing straight into the puppy farmers hands.

finally it IS irresponsible to breed from your bitch unless you have a very good reason for doing so ...your arguements that she is a sweet natured girl could be used by most people about their pet bitches ..and it is simply not a good enough reason for adding to the dog population.

 

[MiLisCer]

Ill add a little to what Milor has said and ask you a bit more about your knowledge of the KC accredited breeder scheme.

Last year there were over 275,000 dogs in rescue centres, over 80% of which are mongrels like yours (That's what they are - like it or not) most Pedigree dogs go to breed rescue which is not included in these figures (Figures from animal aid and RSPCA)

Whilst I agree the KC accredited breeder does NOT go far enough, I would be happy to see ALL dog breeding licensed in this country, surely this would have a massive impact on reducing the number of dogs in rescues? or the number of people just breeding for the hell of it.

Why do you think that the KC Accredited breeder scheme reduce the risk of inherited disease? just because it advises that all the appropriate health tests are carried out, it does not mean they HAVE to be, as they don't. You simply pay to join the scheme and there are NO checks done,so its worthless.

I am also intrigued as to why you think the breed standard contributes to health defects? NO what contributes to health defects is people breeding from untested dogs or dogs that are unsuitable!

Hey ho! oh and one last point - why is the title to this thread wrong? The dogs are clearly mis-described?

Mike

 

[Onyxia]

[ QUOTE ]
finally it IS irresponsible to breed from your bitch unless you have a very good reason for doing so ...your arguements that she is a sweet natured girl could be used by most people about their pet bitches ..and it is simply not a good enough reason for adding to the dog population.

[/ QUOTE ]
I WOULD agree with that completly if the OP diddnt have homes allready waiting for the pups.
So what if they are mongrels?So what if they are not KC registered?
She has loving homes with friends and family members waiting for any pups.
I prefere purebred dogs but each to their own.The pups will have homes who understand the commitment they are making, that will care for and love them all their lives so they wont be a rescue statistic and health checks will be done before the dogs are mated.

In this case, can t see any problem breeding.I have known a fair few pro breeders who have a litter and then try to find homes, that IMO is far more irresponsible.

ETS- Why do we have to have the same debate everytime someone asks for advice on breeding???
People post to share other peoples experiances or to have a question answered by experianced people not to have the whole forum jump down their throat!!

 

[CAYLA]

I assume the breeds being described in the post are not the actual breeds being bred from.....Im I making sense...LOL

If the dog is considerabley bigger....obviousley there is always a risk of caesarean/complications....esp with a first litter and smaller breeds......so put your self a continguency to one side......of atleast £500-£1000 just incase.....esp if she whelps Out of Hours

it could rise.
After all someone in a post has just paid £500 for a dog with a wound on its paw

There have been some very valid points made throughout this post.


I can see how people can become enthusiastic about breeding from their dogs........something I will only ever see as potential rescues

This seems very sad

and the reasons for me are obvious...they stare me in the face every day....from badly bred to fantastically bred pedigrees and X-breeds, at the end of the day they all have one thing in common they have just as much chance as the next of becoming a rescue statistic

I can post pictures...but I cant make people physically aware of the situations we see every day

its very stressfull and make me very angry at times.


Some people feel they safe guard their breeding off spring via contract and some by gifting them to trusty family members they are sure will care for them forever, non are fail safe.


Just as a family member can give up or return the little pooch, the contract can be broken.....after all these people cud dissapear of the map and breed from the dog that has a restriction placed upon it/handed it into the nearet or furthest rescue or simply sell it on.
(obviousley safeguarding and contracts is a step up and one step further to avoiding a rescue scenario......so I am in no way mocking it.......just stating its not fail safe)

At the end of the day its up to the individual whos dog it is.....just be aware that these puppies themselves can be bred from and this is when the numbers begin to grow

We have dogs handed in to us for the most hideous reasons and just as someone mentioned moulting

yep....we have indeed had dogs handed to us for this very reason

0
We recently had two 9 week old Lhasa-apso puppies brought in to be p.t.s because they had scabies......treatable.....but never the less disgusting to the ladiy that paid £400 each for them

and the breeder wud not take them back either

I think people will always feel/debate passionatley in regard to breeding....this is as stated due to the huge amount of cruelty and ever increasing rescue statistics.


Anyway

I hope everything turns out the way you want with your dog.....and that if u do decide to breed, that u find succesfull and permanent homes for your puppies.
Good Luck

 

[milor]

"health checks will be done before the dogs are mated."


.....WHAT health checks ????? ..a quick once over by the vet is NOT screening for inherited health problems !!!...this discusson crops up every time breeding is mentioned because it is shocking the number of people who view having a litter as a recreational activity with never a thought for the implications.

In the cold light of day we are talking about the deliberate breeding of more mongrels how can this be responsible ?

 

[Onyxia]

[ QUOTE ]
In the cold light of day we are talking about the deliberate breeding of more mongrels how can this be responsible ?

[/ QUOTE ]
how is it less responsble then breeding pure bred dogs??
See Cala's post above, she has all sorts from every breed/cross you can imagine in her rescue.

Breeding then finding homes is not responsable.
Asking 101 questions because you are thinking about breeding and are sure you have lifelong homes waiting is responsable.
Sure, someones circumstances could change so they might not be able to keep the pup, but that can happen just as easily to a top show dog as a mongrel.

What exactly is it about mongrels you hate so much?
ask on here and just as many people will have had fab mongrels as fab pure bred dogs.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Right I'm really starting to get the feeling that milor would like all mongrels exterminated!!

I feel the need for a mongrel/pedigree poll - Let all us owners of substandard dogs, stand up an be counted!!!

 

[smokeybabes]

QR
If these dogs were not bred form it might just encourgae the 5 people wanting the pups to visit a rescue centre and offer a deserving a home to some of the many rescue dogs. Surely this is better than bringing more dogs into the world?

 

[milor]

I do not hate all mongrels and most certainly do not want to see them all 'exterminated' -( what a ridiculous statement ! )- if you read my posts carefully you will see that I am totally against the irresponsible breeding of ALL dogs whether pure bred or not. In my opinion there has to be more of a reason for breeding that just because you fancy having a litter - or see it as an easy way of making a bit of pin money.

I agree with Cala that sadly far too many dogs end up on rescue - they are the victims of this kind of thoughtless breeding practice. The reason that I strongly disagree with cross breeding is that those that do this are often outside any kind of safety net . They do this in total ignorance of what they may produce - stating that they 'love' their bitch is simply not good enough to bring yet more poorly bred dogs into the world. -

It all comes down to education - if the general public took more care over who they bought their pups from - if they insisted on seeing all relevant health certificates - if they chose the type of dog that truly suited their lifestyle ( instead of the latest fashion !) - in fact if they took as much care and trouble over the choice of their dog as they do over their new car then the welfare of dogs in this country would be a whole lot better.

To try and simplify this debate into a for or against mongrels poll misses the point entirely - (and is a little childish) -try doing a poll for or against irresponsible breeding instead which is the whole point and purpose of my posts !!!.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

[ QUOTE ]
QR
If these dogs were not bred form it might just encourage the 5 people wanting the pups to visit a rescue centre and offer a deserving a home to some of the many rescue dogs. Surely this is better than bringing more dogs into the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it wouldn't. Many people wanting a dog, want a pup, not a dog (of unknown background and breeding) that someone else has ruined, because they couldn't be bothered to socialise it properly (taking on a rescue dog takes experience in many cases as they will have very different needs to a pup).

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Rubbish I quote - [ QUOTE ]
The reason that I strongly disagree with cross breeding is that those that do this are often outside any kind of safety net . They do this in total ignorance of what they may produce - stating that they 'love' their bitch is simply not good enough to bring yet more poorly bred dogs into the world

[/ QUOTE ].

FGS listen yourself

 

[milor]

explain how my statements are 'rubbish' ?

frankly your attitude is a huge part of the reason why rescue exists - why are you so against ethical breeding

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Because the Op is obviously getting the health of both dogs checked, has already found homes for the potential puppies and is responsible enough to give any of the off spring a home for live if all goes wrong........so what is the problem??? At the end of the day all breeds of dogs started off a mongrels, till the required traits were breed in/out. Your whole theory seems to be that only predigree dog breeders (who I suspect you are one) are responsible breeders.

 

[echodomino]

As a breeder, producing one maybe two litters a year maximum, of "pedigree" dogs and having the very odd litter of .. OMG...unregistered traditional Jack Russells, I can see both points of view.

Yes the HWV are hip scored but the Jacks aren't, the HWV have waiting lists as long as your arm but the Jacks don't - does this make me a bad person and a irresponsible breeder? ALL of our pups are carefully thought out and planned regarding previous generations etc and are homed with the understanding we'll have the dog back at any time what ever the problem. The HWVs go with a contract of sale. All pups go with folders, every new owner has all of our contact details and we theirs. So am I still irresponsible??

And as for the KC accredited breeders scheme, it's in dire need of some tweaking because at the moment it's pointless. Dad has seen appalling conditions of the dogs of an "accredited breeder" near to us and we reported to the KC who didn't even respond.

I don't see why when ever someone posts about breeding that they get completely attacked!! Ok so they're not pedigree but the OP has obviously thought this through first. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it's the decision of the dog owner and their responsibility, why's there a problem when she's clearly willing to accept this?

There are responsible and irresponsible breeders with whatever you breed.

 

[milor]

but why are you breeding JRT at all ? ...and why do your HWV get the 'full works' ie health testing and contracts etc but the Jacks not ? you perhaps have a breeding plan for your HWV which aims to improve the stock you already have but the JRT's?.

Don't know why you have brought up the KC Accredited Breeders scheme - I have not mentioned it at all in my posts as like you I believe it needs much more 'teeth' if it is going to be effective -and if you read my posts I have already acknowledged that there are irresponsible breeders within the pedigree world as well . Do you not have a criteria before you breed ? or is the fact that the bitch is a 'nice bitch with a good temperament ' enough ? and if this is sufficient do you not agree that this would probably mean that most bitches could be bred from ....but SHOULD they ?

...and go and take a look in any rescue centre to see the reason why I feel so strongly about this issue !.