Tradition v Science - what do you think?

[PaddyMonty]

My point though was what owners actually believe - how many would choose a supplement based on anecdotal evidence from a friend rather than based on any published findings.

Most of them.

 

[lazybee]

Isn't there a recent piece of legislation from the VMD which prevents supplements from claiming they work if they aren't supported by sufficient scientific evidence? I was hoping it might help with that particular problem. It drives me up the wall. I have been known to go round stalls at big horse shows and bicker with supplement and alternative therapy sales people about what constitutes evidence. I've never had one produce the results of an actual study and I've never had one admit that a case report of one bleeding horse doesn't constitute scientific proof.


Jesstickle, don't start me on believing in ghosts - I've had some truly alarming (to my blinkered existence) conversations with scientists who believe in all sorts of spectres

With your blinkered views you need to have a communicator visit your horse while you have some Reiki sessions and eat a few dried flower heads to calm down and tune yourself into the lay lines (the ones big cats use to travel the UK) Arnica is reported to be good for a closed mind. My cousin's friend's cousin's mate's horse was brought back to life with tea tree oil, Manuka honey and glucosamine.

I'm off outside to Feng shui the shed

 

[superted1989]

Going back to equines................. (I'm definitely not a scientist, my old physics teacher smelt of sweaty doughnuts, put me right off science!).
There seems to be a lot of 'science' facts in cures or supplements, but no so much in the way of prevention. Using something like laminitis, there is a multitude of feeds and additives out there, marketed with research back up, for the laminitic equine. To me, that means the horse must have already had an attack. It's not obvious where to find research in how to prevent laminitis in the first place, that is much easier to go down the 'tradition' route.

 

[wizzlewoo]

Firstly fantastic thread, very funny yet very interesting at the same time.

Most of them.

Out of interest how many people on hear feed supplements and on what basis have they chosen to feed them? recommendation or research?

Yes the VMD does strongly regulate the phrasing of words in an advert or packaging but supplement companies and feed companies can get away with a lot by simply saying '**** may reduce inflammation'. But then so much research is shown as statistics which can often mean sweet FA. Like skin creams on the telly that say 70% of people said it made them look 60 years younger, the small print then says 70% of 118 people tested, again there is no control group.

With your blinkered views you need to have a communicator visit your horse while you have some Reiki sessions and eat a few dried flower heads to calm down and tune yourself into the lay lines (the ones big cats use to travel the UK) Arnica is reported to be good for a closed mind. My cousin's friend's cousin's mate's horse was brought back to life with tea tree oil, Manuka honey and glucosamine.

I'm off outside to Feng shui the shed

Really made me chuckle

 

[hollyandivy123]

I think she used to believe in gravy, but her belief was shattered in such a cruel and harsh way that she can never believe again

exactly once you have had your belief shattered..................i remember onion gray, yorky pud and sausage, when i was a child. now if i go back to the belief it is lovely and gorgeous and try again, i find it a very hollow (and short lived exeperience yuk........... where is the loo, not quite as bad as southern comfort but that is another story)


i have had to move on to a new sauce of faith, the leeky cheesey sauce, with a dash of horse radish on the side yum

 

[cptrayes]

OK, if we can't stay off the divine intervention stuff, can someone who believes in the hand of a higher power in the design of the world explain to me these three things:

a horse has multiple joints in the hock, but only one of them is required for the horse to move the way it does, the others do not flex. The joints which do not flex are predisposed to arthritis, which is cripplingly painful and lames the animal in a very substantial percentage of horses.

a horse's (and worse, a giraffe's!) left hand vocal cords are controlled by a nerve which comes out of the brain, goes down the neck, wraps itself around the heart, travels all the way back up the neck to the throat, and causes the vocal cords to open so that the horse can breath. In a huge proportion of horses this nerve fails somewhere in that long journey, leaving the horse with insufficient breath to get away from its predators.

In mammalian eyes, the nerves sending signals from the retina to the brain are IN FRONT of the retina blocking the view.

There are more but those are my favourites.


Devine intervention? He/she ain't much good at it if so.

 

[juventino]

It's at the same time amusing and scary that people genuinely believe in God and don't believe in evolution. To say one doesn't believe in evolution is like saying one doesn't believe in trees when standing in a wood - the evidence is clearly all around.

There's evidence in the fossil record and evidence of evolution happening right now - think about viruses and bacteria adapting to become drug tolerant.

And anyway, everyone is an atheist - just atheists when considering Odin, Thor or Zeus and a whole host of others. Atheists go one god further (thanks for that Dawkins). I've studied the history of religion at a small uni in Oxfordshire and it's clear that religions and therefore gods are made up. In this day and age people should realise that.

 

[JFTDWS]

With your blinkered views you need to have a communicator visit your horse while you have some Reiki sessions and eat a few dried flower heads to calm down and tune yourself into the lay lines (the ones big cats use to travel the UK) Arnica is reported to be good for a closed mind. My cousin's friend's cousin's mate's horse was brought back to life with tea tree oil, Manuka honey and glucosamine.

I'm off outside to Feng shui the shed

I knew I'd been going wrong somewhere. I should get some magnetic stuff for the horses and organise an equine touch visit while I'm at it. I must also swap all their feeds onto organic, herbal miracle cure feeding systems (for problems they don't have) which come at great cost but with added alliteration in the name from a suitably patronising company. Is there a homeopathic remedy I can use to combat whatever malady the communicator tells me is upsetting my horses? Or would I be better to get a voodoo-based cure?

I may get them exorcised while I'm at it. Where can I buy cheap holy water?


(I have a much bigger problem with people who claim unfalsifiable and non-proven remedies / feeds / etc are scientifically proven or valid because of their anecdotal experience, than I do with people who choose to believe in different theories of existence and creation... unless they try and preach their theory to me )

 

[Henbug]

I thought when you get right down to the absolute complex nitty gritty, it's pretty much impossible to prove anything. The main goal of many scientists seems to be to prove that existing rules and theorys etc are infact incorrect?

Totally correct, you can't prove a hypothesis you can only dispove the null hypothesis. I'll make sure I put something in about this. Thanks

I find it more interesting how people prefer anecdotal evidence over scientific evidence.

This is a large part of what I am hoping to look at

For every single supplement that exists you'll always find someone with a story about how their horse went from a poor cripple to winning at Hickstead purely thanks to the supplement. And many manufacturers actually use anecdotal evidence in their advertising campaigns! But very few seem to present rigorous and independent scientfic evidence for their claims.

I've tried various supplements (usually chosen based on whatever scientific evidence I've found or on vets recommendation) and whilst I have seen some some improvements while using them, I've never been able to say without a doubt that it was the supplement and not some other management or seasonal change that happened during the same time period..

I had thought about products eg. supplements that hadn't been tested and eventually dismissed it as perhaps going slightly off topic. Now I think that due to quite a lot of interest in it I may perhaps reinstate it. Its basically the flip side, where research is desired but unavailable. And most importantly its interesting . (I had a brief look and couldn't find any PUBLISHED EQUINE related research done on point-two's only motorbikes, something that maybe ought to be done, if it hasn't been?)


Thanks for all replys (both helpful and funny!) I am now considering using the title "The Gravy Delusion" :-D With a strong line of thought running through it about God, Gravy and Evolution!

 

[superted1989]

I may get them exorcised while I'm at it. Where can I buy cheap holy water?

Aha! That's where we've been going wrong, we've had our horses 'exercised' instead, lol!

 

[JFTDWS]

Aha! That's where we've been going wrong, we've had our horses 'exercised' instead, lol!

rookie mistake, superted, lucky your horses have survived this long! At least now you know you should have your local priest on speed dial at all times. (who needs vets, eh?!)

 

[JFTDWS]

I had thought about products eg. supplements that hadn't been tested and eventually dismissed it as perhaps going slightly off topic. Now I think that due to quite a lot of interest in it I may perhaps reinstate it. Its basically the flip side, where research is desired but unavailable. And most importantly its interesting . (I had a brief look and couldn't find any PUBLISHED EQUINE related research done on point-two's only motorbikes, something that maybe ought to be done, if it hasn't been?)

Good lord, I had trouble finding "proof" that hats have been shown to be beneficial - I'm sure such proof exists but I couldn't find anything other than unreferenced reviews and suppositions based on poor results. I confess I didn't devote a great deal of time to it, but I expected to find better research than that. If it's not easily available for hats I'd be very surprised if it's available for point twos!

I think tackling the supplement question would be a very interesting inclusion in a dissertation.

 

[FionaM12]

Good lord, I had trouble finding "proof" that hats have been shown to be beneficial - I'm sure such proof exists but I couldn't find anything other than unreferenced reviews and suppositions based on poor results. .

Your own research wouldn't be difficult. Get someone to bash you on your skull with a large branch with your hat on, then again without...

Now testing Reiki's much harder...

 

[racingdemon]

Off topic.... But On the subject of the vmd, the legislation says that if a product becomes medicinal by either function (i.e you make a claim) or presentation (you pack it in a controlled format) it must be supported by the same research & development that pharma drugs are, so instead, claims aren't made and words such as might/may/supports have to be used, regardless of what research is out there to support particular ingredients/ products, and the ASA have also recently got involved, & as supplements fall into the same legal categories as feed, to substantiate any claims of being the best/number 1/ most popular etc etc, they are looking at requiring huge amounts of data,

All great lots of you say, however the industry is it's self stuck between a rock & a hard place, & if the legislation moved further towards pharma type controls, prices of all these products would have to go up to mirror the costs involved, you'd find choice is massively reduced & actually alot less people would be able to use them.... Meaning (IMO) you'd surely have some degree of compromised welfare & possibly even the development of another black market where products are imported without the controls you'd currently get in the uk....

 

[JessandCharlie]

Now I was under the impression that the minute an 'alternative' type supplement etc. is proven to work by proper scientific research the FEI et al. Will ban its use in competition, thus people will stop buying it as they can't compete their horses on it, and manufacturers won't sell their product. If I'm right in thinking that then I wouldn't be conducting any proper research on my product (if I were a manufacturer, which I'm not) either. Is there not something to do with these products also having a 'drug' status if proven to work? So then the associated costs may well cripple manufacturers.

Correct me if I'm wrong

J&C

 

[JessandCharlie]

Just bumping this back up again to see if anyone can confirm (or not) my thoughts

J&C