Training a Fear Agressive dog.. can it be done?

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EquestrianFairy

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Its a long story but basically i have what a behaviourist classed as a fear agressive collie.

He will attack dogs when out in the community if they come to close- there seems to be no real distance just too close as far as he is concerned if he is off the lead, because i tend to only walk him in places that are quiet this has only happend a few times- however if he is on the lead and a dog comes to close he becomes an aggressive maniac but then again so does my other collie who is normally very relaxed.
He will bite strangers in the house if not introduced properly (only men) he HATES men! He has only a handful- literally -of men he trusts and even these he has bitten on introdcution but then never again and has loved them dearly no matter how long it is inbetween seeing them again.
He will become exceptionally agressive if the next door neighbour dares to even open his backdoor (he cannot get over the wall) but will bark and jump at the wall in haste to eat him.
He loves socialising with dogs but has only ever done it in another dogs domain (ie. my nans dog at my nans house) never agressive when put in these situations.

Loves females- all females.

Can these issues be re-trained? I was told once that they cannot be and never pushed it further but after reaising he is slowly getting worse i have now found a new trainer/behaviourist that speicalises in collies as i would love to get him out socialising and doing agility but he cannot do either as he is.
Our 'assessment' isnt until a week tuesday so im wondering if people would be able to tell me whether this is workable?

Here is the beast ;-)

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I don't see why not?

And don't take this the wrong way, but be prepared to be told how you are doing a lot of things wrong. It will be training you, probably more than training the dog x

TBH, when people tell me I can't do something with a dog, then that is like a red rag to a bull, if *I* know we can.
Can you, in all honesty, say you can both do it? You and the dog? Will you stick at it and be consistent? If so, then, as I say, I cannot see why not.
 
Sorry to have to say this but I fear you have a liability.

What happens when the dog bites a child -- possibly in the face? It is, apparently, already known to be a biter so you will be strictly liable and responsible in the eyes of the law.

Yes, as CC says, the dog might be trained out of the problem, but are you prepared to bet the scarring a child's face for life that it can be reliably trained out of the problem, in perpetuity?

I know I wouldn't.

You don't tell us about the history of this dog but I'm betting it is a rescue. Am I right? Why do people think they can solve a problem by passing it on to someone else?
 
Oh im happy to be told ive been doing things wrong- if it means making him better then i will do what it takes.

Hes trained in 'normal' things like- recall (Unless its a dog hes spotted because thats when he attacks them if he can) He will sit/wait etc very well. He understands to stop barking when i tell him (if someone knocks at the door for example) and knows when i say 'bed' i mean it. Unfortunately these dont help on him being agressive to strangers or wanting to bite a dogs head off if out walking because this is where my understanding of training ends.

Ultimately it would be lovely if he could be like my other dog where we can go for a walk with him off a lead and not have to constantly be on egg shells about who may be around and if people can walk in and out of the house without me constantly being worried about him etc.
 
I had a very aggressive rescue collie x... He loved female dogs and people. But he hated male dogs he would literally go out of his way to find and kill any fully or castrated male dog :( he was 1 1/2 yrs I took him to a behaviourist who said put him too sleep he'll never change. I was 14, I didnt. I worked so so hard with him and it took years but by the time he was 5 or 6 he was 99% trustworthy, i never allowed him offlead with unknown dogs till he'd met but he didn't attack anymore. He became amazing and people used to bring round new puppies for him to be the 1st dog they'd meet :) then I got a puppy and he adored him...
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He was put too sleep at 8 with brain cancer and I was devastated, that was last year and I still have people approach me and ask where he is as they miss him :(

It took one he'll of a long time and effort but I worked hard and eventually it worked! He never had the people issues but did have major separation anxiety e.g. Ate right through a brick wall!! But work got through it :) your doggy is gorgeous btw!!!!
 
Dry Rot said:
Sorry to have to say this but I fear you have a liability.

What happens when the dog bites a child -- possibly in the face? It is, apparently, already known to be a biter so you will be strictly liable and responsible in the eyes of the law.

Yes, as CC says, the dog might be trained out of the problem, but are you prepared to bet the scarring a child's face for life that it can be reliably trained out of the problem, in perpetuity?

I know I wouldn't.

You don't tell us about the history of this dog but I'm betting it is a rescue. Am I right? Why do people think they can solve a problem by passing it on to someone else?
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Hes never bitten a person outside in the community- only when in the house, however in saying that i do not take him to places that are frequented by children or people or anyone if i can help it and no, i would not trust him near a child and never have had him near one. He doesnt just randomly run up and bite people.
No, he was not a rescue- ive had him since he was a pup and hes always been this way- we have no idea why or what caused it.

I have discussed at length with my mum (who he adores) that if the behaviourst states the best thing would be to PTS then i would have to think about it.
 
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Yes if you are willing to literally put every ounce of yourself into it.

However this is a dog that should never be off leash and should always be muzzled when out but I am sure you know that.
 
Why do you think it is "fear aggression" if you know his whole history and he has never been scared by a dog or person that you know of?
 
katielou said:
However this is a dog that should never be off leash and should always be muzzled when out but I am sure you know that.
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I would definitely agree with this, I know many dogs can be worse with approaching dogs if on a lead but it would seem from what you have said that your chap is unreliable off lead too so until the situation is under control please do keep him on a lead. I hope you get it sorted, good luck
 
lexiedhb said:
Why do you think it is "fear aggression" if you know his whole history and he has never been scared by a dog or person that you know of?
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Only because a behaviourst stated it was and having read up on Collies and aggression it seems it can also be genentic predisposition, i also remember when seeing his mum she was exceptionally shy (which i put down to having people handle her pups)
He 'seems' to hit a alot of the fear aggression 'norms' when ive looked on BC sites etc- hes always been a very nervy dog, scared at the slightest thing- that still remains now.
However, if the new behaviorist states its something else then i will go with her opinion.
 
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FattyBoomBoom said:
I would definitely agree with this, I know many dogs can be worse with approaching dogs if on a lead but it would seem from what you have said that your chap is unreliable off lead too so until the situation is under control please do keep him on a lead. I hope you get it sorted, good luck
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Can i just reassure people that ever since he attacked two dogs when off the lead (years ago) he is now taken off the lead in places that are derelict or quiet- for example, today we went and visited my young horses in a field i rent and he comes off the lead for the entire time as we are enclosed and far away from anyone to come into contact with.

Thought i should add when i say 'attacked' i should state hes never broken skin or drew blood but sort of grabs them by ther scruff of their neck and pins them to the ground (by which time when this did happen i got there and pulled him off etc so i have no idea what may have continued to happen and i dont know whether he could have drawn blood because i never let it happen again!) This was around 3 years ago.

Its weird because he went through a stage when i lived in my old house of being really good with dogs i would say 'be nice' if a dog came along, he would have a sniff and be fine but somewhere along the line this has turned back around again- possibly because of my nerves surrounding him? He is exceptionally protective of me even though i am his Alpha in his eyes, he does not believe he is the boss and doesnt do anything that makes me think otherwise either.
 
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How old is our boy? My pup has snapped at one person, fought two dogs. He is not off the lead when other dogs are nearby (easy where I walk). I posted on here about it a few days ago. Yours sounds very extreme, though. :(

I started training mine to ignore other dogs a few days ago and he's done this successfully for two days running. I think I overstated the problem in a panic. :o

I would say always muzzle when out in public (it only takes one biting incident for the DDA to come round) and see if you can borrow a stooge dog to practise ignoring with in a controlled manner.
 
EF I don't know if you've read CT's post but I am going to very lazily cut and paste what I wrote there:

I've just been away all weekend and the pup was running with a pack aged 5, 1, and five months, he is six months, three males, one female.
Every one a 'dominant' type. There was a lot of rough-housing and there were a few fights, some of them sounded horrendous, there were dogs being dumped on the floor, everyone covered in slobbers, I tried to wade in a couple of times but my hosts said 'no, let them sort it out'.
And they did. And a few moments later everything was back to normal. No biting, no puncture wounds, just a lot of noise and teeth and posturing. And then after the dust had settled, they all went back to their places and chilled.

I don't really know what point I am trying to make, but it certainly opened my eyes to how much I panic about stuff that I don't really need to panic about.

AND to add...not ever really having had a proper pack running around my home, I've recently been observing how dogs sort things out and how much HUMAN stress and pressure add to the mix, in a negative way and how my behaviour impacted negatively on my older dog, I really hope not to make that mistake again.
 
I am under no illusion that my nerves over it all make it so much worse- infact i know this is the case as when he is walked by my housemate they never have any issues and if he is introduced to strangers when i am not around he is still never brilliant but certainly better. The 2nd dog he attacked a few years back ran towards me barking angrily (took me totally by suprise) and my dog came for it (unsurpisingly) i believe because it was barking at me.

I am 100% positive my tense-ness and panic over the situations that arise make him worse but unfortunately without professional help i cant help it because obviously he is important to me and i worry, i want to go around with a video and show people hes not this barking beast he seems to be and he is infact so affectionate and loving when hes at home, relaxed and content.

-This is why i have sold a few things to fund a good few weeks of solid traning with the behaviourist.
 
cinammontoast said:
How old is our boy? My pup has snapped at one person, fought two dogs. He is not off the lead when other dogs are nearby (easy where I walk). I posted on here about it a few days ago. Yours sounds very extreme, though. :(

I started training mine to ignore other dogs a few days ago and he's done this successfully for two days running. I think I overstated the problem in a panic. :o

I would say always muzzle when out in public (it only takes one biting incident for the DDA to come round) and see if you can borrow a stooge dog to practise ignoring with in a controlled manner.
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The behaviourist has a set up like a pretend park and stooge dogs she uses (her own i believe)
 
Oh I hear ya! One of my trainers has told me to video *myself* to see what I am doing, she is always yelping RELAX! My shoulders are all hunched over and my bumcheeks are clenched without me even realising.
 
I'm the same- but dont really have a choice as |I can not let Dex do his screaming shouting, lungeing routine whilst keeping him on a long relaxed lead- simply not fair on others.
Dex met 8 dogs on Saturday nicely, from a tiny staff to a giant GSD, so wish he would get over the "Dog MASSIVE EXCITEMENT" thing sometime soon.

Am sure the behaviourist will help steer you on the right track.... interesting about the genetics.
 
Oh believe me, I am the same with one of my dogs (posted on here a couple of months ago) He is dominant with *some* males however has not shown any aggression, just lots of posturing. He has had a few dogs go for him and I probably overreact making the situation worse or tensing up making his dominant tendencies worse? Plenty of bum cheek clenching going on here too!
 
Somebody (Cayla?) posted a link about owners transferring their fear onto the dog, makes for very interesting reading and taught me that probably more than half the problem used to be me. I'm slowly learning again to relax :o but the only way I can currently cope is by concentrating only on Zak so all holiday I'll be walking him separately. Fun, fun! :rolleyes:
 
I think the fact that his mum was a bit shy is very telling and I know a lot of collies are predisposed to this. A lot of Collies who live on farms never see other people or other dogs and I dont know if this could be passed on through breeding.

They are the most intelligent of all breeds and need a lot of exercise and brain training and a lot of other forum users have Collies and they are wonderful dogs.

I think a good behaviourist and lots of hard work on your part can turn your dog around. My last dog was very dog aggressive on the lead and it was very obvious that he wanted to kill the other dog but a good trainer and a lot of hard work from me turned him around.

You sound very committed so good luck and look forward to hearing about your progress.
 
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