Training a youngster who has been overbombproofed

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EQUIDAE

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I've recently bought a 3 1/2 year old who has been in the same home since weaning and was pretty much a pet. Fortunately she is a beautifully natured mare who hasn't turned rude and bolshy but I have one small problem with her - she has been over handled and over bomb proofed and as a results doesn't really respond to any cues when doing groundwork with her.

I've tried lunging but she doesn't move forwards she just stands there, even if you crack the whip behind her, she won't free school as she would rather be with you, she won't lead in the arena without being pulled along, she wont follow another horse in the arena and would rather stand in the middle and plant. She leads OK day-to-day and if she does plant a little zig zag movement gets her going again but work-wise she is just flat. The only time she seems to want to move forwards is when long lining her on lanes but I have a loony next door neighbour so have to make sure they aren't about.

She doesn't move away from pressure on the ground very well either which I am working on. Normal horses would shift over if you poke them in the side - with her you have to use your knuckle quite firmly.

She took a rider with no issues but until she will move forwards independently of someone leading her ridden work really cannot progress. Long lining is giving her the cues of the bit but seat and leg cues are somewhat useless right now.

Oh I also tried sitting on her in the middle of the arena and waiting for her to move on her own (and then praise her) - she didn't move in 15 minutes.

She's a lovely steady eddie sort but this lack of forwards movement has got me a bit stumped.

Eta - I've tried a lunge line, schooling whip with a bag on etc to get her to move forwards. Nothing...

Any ideas?
 
I would rather take on a barely handled youngster than an over handled bombproof one, usually following another horse is the best way to get them going, even being led if necessary, until they gradually start to listen to the rider, she will get there but may always be a rather dull type unless you can find something to stimulate her, jumping may be the key when ready as it could be the one thing she has never done so is not bored by it.
 
be positive said:
I would rather take on a barely handled youngster than an over handled bombproof one, usually following another horse is the best way to get them going, even being led if necessary, until they gradually start to listen to the rider, she will get there but may always be a rather dull type unless you can find something to stimulate her, jumping may be the key when ready as it could be the one thing she has never done so is not bored by it.
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Tell me about it - I bought her as she has a lovely personality and is a pretty thing. The idea being that her bombproof-ness would be a bonus for my OH eventually riding her. I've always said I'd never buy an overhandled horse as they tend to be rude but she was so polite that I assumed she hadn't been. Turns out she has been bomb proofed against pretty much everything in her young education and seems bored by life :(

Actually the jumping is a good idea - I've loose jumped her already with one of my other youngsters to see if that would get her forwards and it did. It's way too soon for jumping under saddle of course (we haven't even trotted) but maybe more loose jumping will help.

Ridden she's not really fussed about following another - happy to stand in the middle and watch...
 
And the essential pictures...

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And her little pop - I don't have a shot of the front end as I only put her over it twice and then stopped.

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Is she an appy cross heavy? My EPSM QHxID was also extremely reluctant to move when first backed. I treated the EPSM and he became much more forward going. She has the genetic heritage to be a strong suspect. Personally, I'd pop her on vitamin E, alcar, and try to keep the sugars really low, And see if it helps.

I love her, by the way :)

PS mine is also 'in your face' clingy and had a tendency to cut off from ground signals. Though mine was largely unhandled until he was nearly four.
 
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ycbm said:
Is she an appy cross heavy? My EPSM QHxID was also extremely reluctant to move when first backed. I treated the EPSM and he became much more forward going. She has the genetic heritage to be a strong suspect. Personally, I'd pop her on vitamin E, alcar, and try to keep the sugars really low, And see if it helps.

I love her, by the way :)
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She is appy x maxicob (cob mum is 16h2) - currently standing at 15h1 so think dad was much smaller. She's on the barefoot routine all my others are on so has a low sugar diet anyway but I may try her on the fatty paddock and see if that helps. I've no experience of EPSM so I'd better have a read-up in case it does fit...

And I love her too - she's a little gem :)
 
EQUIDAE said:
She is appy x maxicob (cob mum is 16h2) - currently standing at 15h1 so think dad was much smaller. She's on the barefoot routine all my others are on so has a low sugar diet anyway but I may try her on the fatty paddock and see if that helps. I've no experience of EPSM so I'd better have a read-up in case it does fit...

And I love her too - she's a little gem :)
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I think if I was to look up the research, that with those genes, she's got more than a sixty percent chance of being EPSM type 1 or type 2. It's rife in both draft and appy. There's a hair root test for type 2, but the diet is harmless, I think, and might just be worth a try.

I think she's too early in her ridden career to show much more in the way of symptoms, but you could feel her bum muscles and see if they are any harder than you would expect. An unexpected level of ungainly balance would also point to it, and help explain why she is reluctant to move
 
ycbm said:
I think if I was to look up the research, that with those genes, she's got more than a sixty percent chance of being EPSM type 1 or type 2. It's rife in both draft and appy. There's a hair root test for type 2, but the diet is harmless, I think, and might just be worth a try.

I think she's too early in her ridden career to show much more in the way of symptoms, but you could feel her bum muscles and see if they are any harder than you would expect. An unexpected level of ungainly balance would also point to it, and help explain why she is reluctant to move
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Crappers! She's a bit of a clumsy oaf but I did put that down to her being a 3yo with long legs :( When she does stride out she strides out lovely :)

Time for some investigations then just in case :(
 
Ycbm - I've had a read and I don't think she has EPSM - she has no hard feed at all and is on BF suitable grazing and the year before last's haylage (I got enough haylage off the field to last 2 years - good job as I got none last year). I don't think I have noticed that she has any hardness in her muscles in her rump but I will double check tomorrow.
 
It sounds to me as if she is very young, quite heavy horse who isn't sure what you expect of her, so stands still. If she is only 3, I wouldn't think that she is bored unless of course, she just doesn't like being in the arena. I would get her out and about as much as possible, on the long lines and just pop a rider on in a safe place. Not that I would do much riding yet, she probably has a lot more growing to do.

Incidentally, we have Appies, with no sign of EPSM.
 
If she was mine i'd be tempted to give her a few months off till she grows a bit older, then take her out being led behind another horse, then with someone on her and then work towards doing some easy hunts or fun rides. It sounds like she's tuned out, especially as regards arena work and handling. I find the fun ride/hunting is good to get them switched back on and forward thinking.
 
paddi22 said:
If she was mine i'd be tempted to give her a few months off till she grows a bit older, then take her out being led behind another horse, then with someone on her and then work towards doing some easy hunts or fun rides. It sounds like she's tuned out, especially as regards arena work and handling. I find the fun ride/hunting is good to get them switched back on and forward thinking.
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There no way I would be taking a 3yo (or even 4yo) hunting. She's a Jan foal so she's not just turned 3 - the plan is to get her going and turn away until the spring. She's mentally ready for it and physically she's not at all like your usual 3yo. She's only had someone on her back 3 times, I think it's a bit defeatist giving up already.
 
Heavens - she's a baby - in age AND experience. We're backing a 4yo gelding now and today he had his first canter off the lunge. He went into it beautifully (with someone running behind him shrieking, lol) and it lasted a whole 20 yards. That was progress. It's FAR easier with this sort than the ones who gallop off bucking!

They don't understand leg aids - and it's best not to use too much leg anyway - you just deaden them to it further. Voice, slapping on the neck with the reins, more voice, and a helper with a lunge whip will soon get the messages through.
 
JanetGeorge said:
They don't understand leg aids - and it's best not to use too much leg anyway - you just deaden them to it further. Voice, slapping on the neck with the reins, more voice, and a helper with a lunge whip will soon get the messages through.
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She doesn't respond to slapping the neck, lunge whip etc and I am not a kicker anyway. She's unresponsive to everything -that's the problem and the point of the thread. There's nothing other than walking with her that will make her move, yet she strides out with no problem when long lining. Hopefully she will twig that the stirrups bouncing on her sides means walk on and she'll transfer this in her brain to a squeeze of the legs.

A little vid of the long lining :)

 
EQUIDAE said:
There no way I would be taking a 3yo (or even 4yo) hunting. She's a Jan foal so she's not just turned 3 - the plan is to get her going and turn away until the spring. She's mentally ready for it and physically she's not at all like your usual 3yo. She's only had someone on her back 3 times, I think it's a bit defeatist giving up already.
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Three times?

The first time I sit, get the horse led a few strides, and get off.
The second time I get it led once round to the left and once to the right.
The third time I repeat that and then ask it to move one step by itself, usually achieved by turning the head and shoulders so they move to rebalance themselves. I praise that madly, and build from there.

I think you may be just expecting too much?


PS I think you can forget about EPSM for the moment!
 
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agree, think you are asking/expecting way too much.

its 100% normal that they dont understand what the aids mean and that you have to jiggle and wiggle and verbally encourage them forward to start with, and/or get them led around several times.
 
EQUIDAE said:
There no way I would be taking a 3yo (or even 4yo) hunting. She's a Jan foal so she's not just turned 3 - the plan is to get her going and turn away until the spring. She's mentally ready for it and physically she's not at all like your usual 3yo. She's only had someone on her back 3 times, I think it's a bit defeatist giving up already.
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i didn't say at all to take her out hunting at three in my post. i actually said turn her away till she matures, and then she might come back with a different headset. Then start a process of being led, being led with a rider and then focus on outdoor fun work that will encourage her forward. with a horse like that its pointless lunging and doing more handling as it puts them in situations where it reinforces the shutdown when they are unsure..

whats missing is a basic lack of 'forward' and the best way to fix that is to do it gradually so the horse does it naturally. the lunging etc will just reinforce the shut down. thats what my post was trying to say. If you go down a route of flapping and kicking its very hard to come back from it.
 
It sounds like she's been "parellied." Being switched off and "unflappable" is actually a symptom of being shut down and afraid to make a decision for herself (in case it is the wrong thing to do).

If it were me I would leave her in a safe space, with some "interesting things" dotted around, and just leave her be to investigate, let her make some choices, and show here that it is OK to not stand still and to go and investigate.

For lunging and long lining, you may need to do something like clicker, if you can find a motivator (I'm not a huge fan of clicker, but I do think it has it's place).
 
Does she know vocal commands? Mine have been brought up as potential driving ponies so their voice cues are spot on, this made it incredibly easy when starting to ride (having done a LOT of longreining out and about with turning, stopping, starting and backing) because the only thing that had changed was my position. I got on and off a few times to make sure she was happy with that, and then just told her to walk on and off she went - I use a clicker so I clicked as soon as she moved the first few times to reinforce the basic cue again, but then she was quite happy. Same with trot, no chasing, no fuss, just cued her to trot and off she went. Same with backing up. With leg aids I just started using light leg aids from the 2nd/3rd ride alongside voice, and within 4-5 rides she was already transferring it herself and responding to leg on it's own without me doing anything directly to teach it.
I wonder if she just doesn't understand well enough and is standing still because she is worried and confused. If it were me I would do a lot more inhand and longreining and get her going really well from the voice (this seems to be missed so much with riding horses) and then just transfer the cues to riding, then transfer voice to leg gradually.
 
I know of a similar now 4 year old. Was always kept on livery yards with older horses until sold to her now owner. She was so good, too good, just like yours. My friend did the basics- being sat on, road walks in hand, that sort of thing. Then because of my friends work load she got turned out with a group of youngsters for 6weeks, it was the best thing that could of happened, she came back into with a sparkle and it was so much easier to get her moving, something she didn't want to do first time round.
 
We seem to have cracked the forward moving thing. She's now long lining like a dream! Seems like if there is someone at her side she overrelies on the handler to keep her moving so I moved straight on to no handler and she is happy to stride on by herself. Initially I headed down the bridle path with her in a straight line and the second time moved on to turning bends and then junctions and turns. She's picked it up really quickly - I'm so pleased with her. Saturday I long lined her in the school and did some circles, serpentines and figure of eights, we even had a bit of a trot around too.

On Sunday I took her out to the local show. I had planned on entering in the youngstock class but as we hacked (with her field buddy) there we got there just that little bit too late and ended up going straight into the only other class she could do which was coloured and spotted. She was up against all adult horses bar one and didn't get placed, but neither did the 3 other appys in the class who were really nice. She behaved impeccably on the roads which although quiet on the way there, were quite busy on the way back - she did however stand on my feet about 20 times. At the show there was no silliness and no shouting and she wasn't at all bothered about her field buddy leaving her to do his classes (though he got a little hysterical the big nancy).

Really chuffed with her and hopefully she will just get better!

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Awww Congrats :)

I was going to say having an Appaloosa x Cob (Way more App in him than anything) Also who had been handled from the day was born constantly I feel your pain. He was never rude or bolshy until he hit 2 and a half and then started testing boundaries but now at 3 and half you wouldn't know it :) He isn't scared of whips even if you flick it off his butt, wont move over unless you shove him as poking him has no affect, I slapped him on the nose the other day as its the only part I could reach to stop him trying to nibble my jeans and he came straight back and started again and my YO stood watching said most horses would react to that and he didn't at all. Maybe its part of an Appy trait as I am pretty sure mine thinks he is actually human half the time haha :D

You will sadly find that alot of Apps don't win in classes unless its a specific Appaloosa class as so many people don't like them (No idea why though) or just assume its a coat pattern not a breed in its own right.
 
She's gorgeous! Just love the look of her. Just my type. She will get the pressure release eventually it might just be a matter of perseverance? I had a really chilled cob (traditional) that was initially like that. Moving him forward off the leg in the school was ridiculous so we went to a ground work clinic with a 'cowboy' (not parelli by the way) and he gave me some really good ideas (Bob reader was his name) once the pressure release was cracked on the ground it all came pretty quick in the saddle but he was always more woah than go if you know what I mean?!
 
Over the past week she has been out to a show, walking in hand 3 miles to get there, I have long lined her 3-4 times a week and yesterday I hopped on board again. I have no helper any more as my friend who was helping has moved out of the area so it was all solo, as was the ride yesterday. To be honest she seems better solo as she clings to the leader. I got on board and she was as good and gold. She had a nice forward walk and we started working on steering off the track too. We even had a little trot - she initiated it and I just went with her and gave her lots of praise. She has a beautifully comfy trot!

I'm so pleased with the little lady! Thinking outside the box and just allowing her to find her own pace, in her own time, has really brought her on in leaps and bounds.
 
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