Training aids for more consistent contact and nicer outline?!?!

GreenEyedMonster said:
I read the article and it all seemed to make sense but unfortunately is just repeating my issue because my horse just becomes unrideable when he gets tense as he refuses to do anything sensible such as lots of transitions or leg yield!
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This sentence to me doesn't sound like a horse that needs a training aid. Training aid + tense horse = tense horse in a training aid. Of course it's hard to make suggestions without seeing the problem.
I'd suggest you look at ways of getting your horse to relax when he gets uptight. This is dependent on the horse. One of my horses responds to being given something easier to think about and kept working, the other likes to take 5 and chill on a long rein before starting where we left off.
Is there anything in particular your horse gets tense about?
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Boxing to another yard is not like having a 1/2 hour - hour lesson though is it? Hence the time constraints :)
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Which the OP mentioned after my previous post (and yours for that matter). Though if the OP is on a full livery yard, I am surprised there are no instructors available to come to her place. Fwiw, I agree that the OP would be better off abandoning schooling until a later point when she can commit time and money to doing it properly.

However, I am bored now so whatever :rolleyes3:
 
Cortez said:
Unfortunately there isn't a gadget that does the job of proper riding; if there was we'd all be Carl Hester and out horses would all be called something like "Valegro". Sorry.
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I also agree with this get a good instructor a horse is only as good as its rider I am afraid.
 
Could you get a video of you (or anyone really) riding him? Do you know anyone who is experienced at riding dressage who could have a sit on him for you?

Just remember that the contact should be light, and if it's not happening, you probably need more leg! There are so many people who seem convinced that you get an outline by holding the horse's head down/sawing at the bit, I know it's tempting to resort to that and it's so common that I'm not surprised people see it as normal.

I've had a really tough but rewarding time, trying to convert a quirky ex racehorse to a dressage horse, with a very limited budget and no lessons. We are getting there. Slowly. The things that have helped me are reading as much as I possibly can, anything vaguely dressage related, watching and assessing hours and hours and hours of people riding - and not necessarily Carl, but anyone who gets a good tune out of a horse, even at prelim. And lastly, video-ing myself and watching it back. I was shocked at how much my hands moved - how was horse supposed to keep a consistent contact when it wasn't consistent on my end?! Things like that were a breakthrough for me.
 
Pigeon said:
Could you get a video of you (or anyone really) riding him? Do you know anyone who is experienced at riding dressage who could have a sit on him for you?

Just remember that the contact should be light, and if it's not happening, you probably need more leg! There are so many people who seem convinced that you get an outline by holding the horse's head down/sawing at the bit, I know it's tempting to resort to that and it's so common that I'm not surprised people see it as normal.

I've had a really tough but rewarding time, trying to convert a quirky ex racehorse to a dressage horse, with a very limited budget and no lessons. We are getting there. Slowly. The things that have helped me are reading as much as I possibly can, anything vaguely dressage related, watching and assessing hours and hours and hours of people riding - and not necessarily Carl, but anyone who gets a good tune out of a horse, even at prelim. And lastly, video-ing myself and watching it back. I was shocked at how much my hands moved - how was horse supposed to keep a consistent contact when it wasn't consistent on my end?! Things like that were a breakthrough for me.
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I second the idea of taking a video if possible, it's far easier to judge by sight than going off of description only. :)

However, I would say that with regards to the above point of the contact being 'light', this depends entirely on how the horse is moving. If the horse is in self carriage, hindquarters engaged and steady into the contact then yes, the contact should be light; however, it's perfectly possible for a horse to be trundling along on the forehand, hollow and not tracking up but to still be light into the contact if numerous elements aren't in place. (I'm 100% certain that Pigeon was referring to the former of these examples; I just wanted to clarify it for the sake of OP).

As with the majority of people in this thread, I'd strongly advise against using gadgets. It is not just about the head, but about impulsion, activity and and horse that is forward thinking and ready to work with you. Currently, it sounds as if your horse is behind the leg as even though he may go forward/fast, he's not listening to your aids and would prefer to run into canter rather than work in trot properly (please correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick, here).
If this is the case, what you really need to focus on is forwards. Forget about the head, and just have the horse moving forwards and electric away from your leg; if he runs, okay, nevermind. You don't want to try to compress the natural energy that he offers, rather channel it into movements (even simple figures such as circles, serpentines, etcetera), so that you can maintain the forward motion and encourage him to relax into a rhythm. Only once the horse is truly forward, in balance and thus in rhythm can you even begin to think about 'outline'. And then it is by working into a consistent contact (no fussing with the hands; no sponging on the bit, nada).This is especially important with a horse that is prone to becoming tense, as compressing everything and forcing the head down will only cause problems to escalate.

On a final note, if you truly don't have time for lessons, I'd recommend watching this string of videos:
http://www.usefnetwork.com/featured/2014GMHTS/
Whilst the style of riding exhibited by the riders in the sessions might be different, the way in which the trainer teaches is still absolutely relevant and I have to say that I really like his style.
 
Draw reins work of the devil. how experienced is your instructor what level has she trained at?
Debbie lush has produced amazing books very easy to understand it may help you with your balance and seat aids try less leg if you have a sharp horse use your leg only when you need it , your horse anticipates canter work with that don't shy away. How old is your horse, breed, history of your horse and you as a rider what level have you ridden to.
 
nikicb said:
I am sorry, but if you don't have time to commit then perhaps owning a horse isn't the right thing for you at the moment. By all means go ahead and ride, but you and your horse will only progress together when you can invest time, energy and most likely money in the form of instruction. There is no magic short cut to having a horse in the 'correct' outline. I'd like to be friendly, but it takes two to tango. It would however be interesting to see a photo of you on your horse so we could have a greater appreciation of your issues. :)
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Cant agree with this more, it takes time patience and prctice to produce muscle understanding and flexibility

I also agree with the video idea. What it feels like you are doing and what you are actually doing can be very different.

My mare can be very tense and her tenseness used to often be followed by an explosion! Hard as it was to do the way through this was to keep my leg on and be light with my hands when all my instincts said leg off and short reins. If yu are struggling to keep his attention then small circles help me to get it back when things like a bike a bird etc are more interesting
 
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Defiantly don't try draw reins you must be trained to use them and as you say you don't have time for lessons.
Although I have four horses having a merry time in snaffles and cavesson nosebands I am not a purist and will use a gadget at times if I feel it might help.
However I don't think from your description a gadget is the answer for you unless a good trainer recommends one and shows you how it acts and how to use it in a structured training programme .
 
Hi OP..

Gagets really need to be used under supervision, ive used Draw Reins & a a De Gogue in the past but only with my instructor... If you are tight on time & funds Id just hack & enjoy.. You say that you do mainly trot work? Horse may be tense if you are constantly fighting for a contact and not letting him burn off energy.
 
GreenEyedMonster said:
The time I do spend is spent trying to iron out problems that keep reoccurring after they seem to have gone away, lessons would cost money and involve me driving to their homes/yards because of where I live.


I'm not planning on trying every possible aid there is, nor do I plan on playing about with them, he'll either take to it or he won't, I'm not going to force him am I?
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I'll let you into a little secret...












With horses, there are no quick fixes, no magic gadgets. The experienced people on here are all telling you that the process of schooling a horse takes time, patience, understanding and help! It's good that you're asking for help but you can't blame people for having the opinion that you're asking the wrong question in the first place.

If you're always having to return to the same problems then it means they were never dealt with fully in the first place. Little cracks in the horse's education can end up being gaping holes as they don't have the basic skills and education to allow them to progress.

Putting different gadgets on an already tense horse won't, can't, allow them to work correctly.

I agree with those who said it may be worth backing off a bit for just now, perhaps hacking or groundwork to try and plug a few of the gaps. There are loads of things you could be working on, but by focussing on head position and outline you are setting yourself up for failure, if your aim is a correctly schooled and balanced horse. Get him going happily forward, responding to your aids, bending correctly and keeping straight when you want him to, and working on transitions between and within all paces, you can do this on the ground or ridden, in a school, field or hacking. By the time summer comes and you have lessons you'll have all the building blocks in place and be able to progress further with the support :-)
 
Goodness HHO can be a feisty place at times! OP, I applaud you for asking the question . . . it shows that you want to improve and that's admirable. I do, though, agree with showpony that in your shoes, I'd be tempted to just hack and enjoy and then when you have finished your GCSEs and have a little more (stress free) time and funds, invest in a lesson or two.

The best way to achieve balance and self-carriage is sympathetic and patient riding and if what you are doing isn't working (and you say you don't have mirrors so can't really see what's happening) then the only remedy is some eyes on the ground.

Best of luck with your GCSEs.

P
 
Sorry can I just say really quickly that www.horsehero.com has some really good educational videos from all sorts of riders/ trainers in all disclipines, don't think it costs too much but not sure off hand, might be worth a look, lots of experience and ideas gained just from watching them ride different horses and explain things, and perhaps a bit cheaper than lessons at the moment? And can fit them in as 'revision wind down' maybe?
 
PolarSkye said:
Goodness HHO can be a feisty place at times! OP, I applaud you for asking the question . . . it shows that you want to improve and that's admirable. I do, though, agree with showpony that in your shoes, I'd be tempted to just hack and enjoy and then when you have finished your GCSEs and have a little more (stress free) time and funds, invest in a lesson or two.

The best way to achieve balance and self-carriage is sympathetic and patient riding and if what you are doing isn't working (and you say you don't have mirrors so can't really see what's happening) then the only remedy is some eyes on the ground.

Best of luck with your GCSEs.

P
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I think the feistiness (is that a word?) started here:

GreenEyedMonster said:
If you aren't willing to say anything friendly then I'd appreciate it if you'd leave the thread, I was asking for advice from mature and understanding people, as you do not seem to fit this category then please don't reply to the question.
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The OP was given fair advice that there were no quick fixes and she needed to look at getting some instruction, and this was her response (addressed to Cortez, who in my experience always tends to give sensible advice).
 
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nikicb said:
I think the feistiness (is that a word?) started here:



The OP was given fair advice that there were no quick fixes and she needed to look at getting some instruction, and this was her response (addressed to Cortez, who in my experience always tends to give sensible advice).
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I agree that the OP was a tad sharp/rude in her response . . . and that Cortez talks eminent sense . . . but she is only 16 and may have felt rather set upon.

All of the advice she has been given is sound . . . and she did "bite" at Cortez . . . but biting back at someone so young isn't particularly necessary, nor is it likely to encourage her to take the advice given.

Happy Sunny Friday all :).

P
 
While I agree that gadgets are not always an answer, they are not the work of the devil or never to be used in any circumstance. In the hands of a knowledge rider, who is using them to complement they work they are doing, they can help with specific issues.

I think the OP is brave to have posted her question, knowing the H&H forum hatred of the mere mention of the word gadget, sends so many into a spin out of all proportion.

Of course lessons are the answer but gadgets appear so helpful in the promises they promote, you can hardly blame OP for asking.

Not one person has asked OP what issues she is having with her horse. We only know that he gets tense and won't keep a consistent contact but no more.

She asking for help not criticism.

So, OP what specific issues are you having, does your horse raise his head and get distracted when he gets tense? does he root out of your hands with his head towards the floor? does he hollow his back away from you? does he run off? are you able to keep your leg on when he's tense or does that really annoy him? does he become so inattentive that you can't get any sense out of him? is he better to school if he gets a chance to hack first? will he work over poles, which might help loosen his back? does he can turned out? do you jump him?

Knowing the answers to some of these questions will help give much more knowledgable answers and perhaps a 'gadget' is on the market which could help. But I believe that until the actual problem is known it's hard to suggest anything :)
 
PolarSkye said:
I agree that the OP was a tad sharp/rude in her response . . . and that Cortez talks eminent sense . . . but she is only 16 and may have felt rather set upon.

All of the advice she has been given is sound . . . and she did "bite" at Cortez . . . but biting back at someone so young isn't particularly necessary, nor is it likely to encourage her to take the advice given.

Happy Sunny Friday all :).

P
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I find Cortez gives good advice but even I felt her last sentence in that post was rather sarcastic, which is probably why the OP 'bit back'. I thought her replies to the other posters were very polite.
 
OP, speaking from my own experience, I had been a happy hacker for 10 years. When I moved to current yard in 2012, I caught the competition bug. I spent a long time trying to find the right instructor, and tried a few out. One particular instructor had me sawing at Saf's mouth, leg on all the time, and wanted me to jag her in the mouth if she got overexcited and neighed. In hindsight I knew this just didn't sit right with me. I didn’t go back of course. I admit that to a lot of people, the ‘outline’ Saf went in during this lesson looked flash, and much better than her usual nose-poking. She is so forgiving, and such an angel, that she put up with me, and forgave me. Horses generally just want to please and if you stick gadgets on your boy, he is unlikely to complain, so you’ll think that he is ‘happy’ with the gadget. Thankfully I now have a wonderful, classical instructor, who is anti-gadget. I am seeing such an improvement in Saf’s schooling, and yes it is taking time, but there’s lot of progress and it’s so satisfying.

I implore you to spend the gadget money on a few decent classical books and DVDs (if you can’t stretch to lessons).
 
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I tried side reins and lunged him just now to see if there was any change and there was... Slightly..
I think what you have said about gadgets have helped, he knows what to do but I think he is just avoiding it out of boredom and too much energy.
Getting the yard owner (who competes at 1*) to ride him for now and having the physio coming out AGAIN just to be sure there is no underlying issue,
As much as I understand hacking should be our thing for now, we are very limited to where we can to so it can get incredibly boring for the both of us! And as we are on the school team, it is quite hard to turn down a competition when the school is willing to pay for all and drive him there!
Perhaps in a month I will post again to let you know how this worked out? If not, thank you all for help, suggestions and even for just replying, took all of it into consideration, I'm trying not to be an arrogant teenager but peer pressure to have a horse who goes well and do the team proud can get to you sometimes!
Thanks again! :)
 
PolarSkye said:
Goodness HHO can be a feisty place at times! OP, I applaud you for asking the question . . . it shows that you want to improve and that's admirable. I do, though, agree with showpony that in your shoes, I'd be tempted to just hack and enjoy and then when you have finished your GCSEs and have a little more (stress free) time and funds, invest in a lesson or two.

The best way to achieve balance and self-carriage is sympathetic and patient riding and if what you are doing isn't working (and you say you don't have mirrors so can't really see what's happening) then the only remedy is some eyes on the ground.

Best of luck with your GCSEs.

P
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Thank you, not meaning to sound rude but it's frustrating when the horse doesn't understand, I can't see what's happening and no one else knows the exact source of the problem because they can't see!
Hearing a lot about balance so I think that's the first thing I will target!
 
GreenEyedMonster said:
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I tried side reins and lunged him just now to see if there was any change and there was... Slightly..
I think what you have said about gadgets have helped, he knows what to do but I think he is just avoiding it out of boredom and too much energy.
Getting the yard owner (who competes at 1*) to ride him for now and having the physio coming out AGAIN just to be sure there is no underlying issue,
As much as I understand hacking should be our thing for now, we are very limited to where we can to so it can get incredibly boring for the both of us! And as we are on the school team, it is quite hard to turn down a competition when the school is willing to pay for all and drive him there!
Perhaps in a month I will post again to let you know how this worked out? If not, thank you all for help, suggestions and even for just replying, took all of it into consideration, I'm trying not to be an arrogant teenager but peer pressure to have a horse who goes well and do the team proud can get to you sometimes!
Thanks again! :)
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Very mature response - good on you.

Best of luck with him, and I hope you do keep the updates flowing.
 
GreenEyedMonster said:
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I tried side reins and lunged him just now to see if there was any change and there was... Slightly..
I think what you have said about gadgets have helped, he knows what to do but I think he is just avoiding it out of boredom and too much energy.
Getting the yard owner (who competes at 1*) to ride him for now and having the physio coming out AGAIN just to be sure there is no underlying issue,
As much as I understand hacking should be our thing for now, we are very limited to where we can to so it can get incredibly boring for the both of us! And as we are on the school team, it is quite hard to turn down a competition when the school is willing to pay for all and drive him there!
Perhaps in a month I will post again to let you know how this worked out? If not, thank you all for help, suggestions and even for just replying, took all of it into consideration, I'm trying not to be an arrogant teenager but peer pressure to have a horse who goes well and do the team proud can get to you sometimes!
Thanks again! :)
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A very gracious response. :)

If you are on the school team, they should have a coach/trainer etc who coordinates you all. Can you speak to them about helping you? Also, if you find he has too much energy, maybe have a review of what he is being fed. If his work has dropped he may not need as much as he is getting, and he would no doubt be happier to have less to burn off, especially as spring grass is coming through.
 
BackonTrack said:
While I agree that gadgets are not always an answer, they are not the work of the devil or never to be used in any circumstance. In the hands of a knowledge rider, who is using them to complement they work they are doing, they can help with specific issues.

I think the OP is brave to have posted her question, knowing the H&H forum hatred of the mere mention of the word gadget, sends so many into a spin out of all proportion.

Of course lessons are the answer but gadgets appear so helpful in the promises they promote, you can hardly blame OP for asking.

Not one person has asked OP what issues she is having with her horse. We only know that he gets tense and won't keep a consistent contact but no more.

She asking for help not criticism.

So, OP what specific issues are you having, does your horse raise his head and get distracted when he gets tense? does he root out of your hands with his head towards the floor? does he hollow his back away from you? does he run off? are you able to keep your leg on when he's tense or does that really annoy him? does he become so inattentive that you can't get any sense out of him? is he better to school if he gets a chance to hack first? will he work over poles, which might help loosen his back? does he can turned out? do you jump him?

Knowing the answers to some of these questions will help give much more knowledgable answers and perhaps a 'gadget' is on the market which could help. But I believe that until the actual problem is known it's hard to suggest anything :)
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Thank you for asking! He raises his head and tenses and hollows his back but I can tell he is trying to do what I ask as he tucks his head and flicks his toes but you can just feel he wants to just stretch out and "run", he doesn't run off exactly but does hurry and given the chance likes to do a very false impression of extended trot that is about as fast as a speedy canter!
He is happy to put his nose to the floor in walk, turned out as often as possible and he is only jumped away from home as he gets too hot at home and cross country!

He gets very very cross when I keep my leg on and practically goes backwards, he just trots on the spot and grunts, he is using the excuse to spook at things he has seen hundreds of times before now and in canter to trot transitions he (like I said) just tucks his head in and "fakes it" really, I know his first owner who had him from 4-10 sold him because he scared her so I think she just used her hands to get his head on and that was it! He was out of work for 18 months before I finally brought him, he rushes over poles but when we have had a few rare sessions of calmness he stretched out nicely.
:)
 
nikicb said:
A very gracious response. :)

If you are on the school team, they should have a coach/trainer etc who coordinates you all. Can you speak to them about helping you? Also, if you find he has too much energy, maybe have a review of what he is being fed. If his work has dropped he may not need as much as he is getting, and he would no doubt be happier to have less to burn off, especially as spring grass is coming through.
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Very sensitive to his feed, one minute he was on veteran mix, the next Topspec senior, now baileys conditioning cubes because he loses weight and condition so easily due to his age and breed type.
Can't believe I never thought to ask Sarah (the team manager)!! Going to ask her on Tuesday when I have BHS stages training.
Can't really take him off his feed as chaff or leisure feeds don't really do enough for him condition wise :)

Oh and to prevent any confusion, the stages training is on school's horses only and mainly on the care of horses not the riding, I know that doesn't make sense but riding wise we are at different levels, one girl does not jump, the other does a lot of dressage but does not understand the instructions (she's German!)
:)
 
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Schooling can be a frustrating experience when you feel you are really on your own, and the lure of gadgets with pictures of horses looking nice working in them can be tempting!

If funds are an issue, I'd highly suggest looking into a good base-level up dressage training book. I've used Jane Savoie's 'Dressage 101' as a reference for me to turn too when I couldn't have a lesson. It's a very simple to read book, she explains the biomechanics of how horses work whilst doing dressage, and what the 'ultimate' aim is. It's also basically a simple to follow training guide, starting form the very fundamental basics which form the foundations of good training. There are several components a horse must be able to achieve on the foundation level before you can start to climb the ladder. These foundations are outlined step by step, and what you can do to achieve it, and also a section on trouble shooting. She will then introduce lateral work, go through 'half-halts' and achieving engagement.
Might be worth a look, check out her website.

Perhaps for now concentrate on getting him relaxed? If he's carrying lots of negative tension he's obviously not confident, and he's not going to be willing to give and stretch down and out. Good Luck, just take the pressure off for a while and enjoy yourselves!
 
Just one thought - you say he will stretch his nose to the floor in walk? My mare was no-where near as bad as you have described him, but was still tense in trot, so I started off walk, head low, relaxed, then just a very quiet 'ask' for trot, but only a stride, then back to walk, relaxed..... when we were there, relaxed, just again, ask for a single stride of trot. After a few times, she would stay long and low for that one stride. So then I asked for two..... and so on. Now we can trot relaxed, long and low, ok it's a long slow process, but from there I've started asking for a little more contact, and bringing her back up. I still have to go back to basics a lot. And I do still have to start everything from long and low walk. Just might be worth a try?
 
Crazydancer said:
Just one thought - you say he will stretch his nose to the floor in walk? My mare was no-where near as bad as you have described him, but was still tense in trot, so I started off walk, head low, relaxed, then just a very quiet 'ask' for trot, but only a stride, then back to walk, relaxed..... when we were there, relaxed, just again, ask for a single stride of trot. After a few times, she would stay long and low for that one stride. So then I asked for two..... and so on. Now we can trot relaxed, long and low, ok it's a long slow process, but from there I've started asking for a little more contact, and bringing her back up. I still have to go back to basics a lot. And I do still have to start everything from long and low walk. Just might be worth a try?
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Might have to keep going at that one then, i did try it for a few weeks but because he got so cross with every downward transition and so hot with upwards transitions, we only really achieve anything nice and relaxed and correct when he is in walk. I am putting it down so far to his old man back needing some tweaking, probably a bad saddle but meant to be M to M! And poor balance because of this!
 
If he's resistant to your leg/hand, it's probably an idea to introduce exercises that will make him take responsibility for managing his own tempo/balance etc. There's a really good exercise that I learned at Talland, and use a lot when teaching, called the 6 circle exercise. You can do it in walk, trot and canter, and use transitions within the pace, and upwards/downwards between the circles - and in the case of a horse who argues, you can steer, and leave him to sort himself out - he'll soon learn that its simpler to slow down and listen, than to try and rush/argue.
There's a video of Charlie Hutton riding the exercise herehttp://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Improve-your-riding/Search-Results/Celebrity-Training-Videos/Dressage/Charlie-Hutton/

The exercise is a bit tricky to learn, but once you've got it, its very simple to ride, and fun to play around with doing different things between the circles. Essentially, you do 10 metre circles in each corner, and at E and B, changing the rein between each circle, carrying on round the school in the same direction in that pattern. Sounds complicated, but its really effective! The vid should help you get to grips with the floor pattern.
 
I have just had a thought. One of mine really does not like working in the school, he will do but is not that happy. I have done a lot of my schooling while out on hacks. There is a great book that shows you how to use hacks as schooling sessions. The book is called "Schooling as you Hack"

I may have missed it but have you had his back and saddle checked. If he is resisting you he could be in pain.

Plain lunging getting him to work long and low so that he stretches his neck and back will help him.
 
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