Training session 8

Haven't finished watching it all yet but from around but some of that is unpleasant viewing

there seems to be some sort of confusion in what this trainer is asking him and what he thinks he should do. Yet the approach doesn't seem to change he's asked again so many times and is still confused because she keeps asking the same question in a way he doesn't seem to understand. in which is leading him to annoyed,frustrated and tense

can i just ask what is she trying to get across to him when she clicks ?
 
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I may be missing something, being a complete novice, and if so please tell me to return to my hole!

It looks a little like whenever he tries to come forward onto the vertical, her hands restrain and ask him to return BTV.
 
Hmmm, I really want to ride this horse so I can listen to him properly. I truly cannot tell as am not on him if he is being plain stubborn and argumentative or if he is genuinely confused. I think a little bit of both to be honest.

This has made for the most uneasy viewing since the first video, but also at time, he has shown in this video some moments of really nice work and therein lies my problem.

I see moments of reward but I see moments of bracing and at one point not happy with her hands really. I see moments of irritation where I think it is right to wait and ride through until the horse accepts things like the leg for instance, but I'd like to see much lighter aids in doing this.

I don't want to write this trainer off, but I don't think she has done herself any favours with this. Some of the canter work is lovely but I don't see her listening to the horse very well in this video. There are moments where he completely relaxes and takes the contact forward, but they are not maintained anywhere near long enough for my liking.

I honestly think that this session as been equally good and bad for the horse. Good in the sense that yes, he is coming higher in his frame and he is dipping behind the vertical less. He is starting to step through more in some work and he is maintaining the correct footfall through most of the canter work, so while it was hard work, he was relaxed enough to keep the footfall almost all the time...impossible when a horse is too tense.

Bad in the sense that I think it was a bit too much for what looks like sweltering heat and a bit too much in terms of the number of repetitions of each exercise. I feel that in order for a horse to learn that it is doing something right, an exercise should be done and tweaked until they get it...and when they get it, reward and move on to something else. Repetition after they get it right can create frustration and the lesson can be lost.

I have such a deep down desire to ride this horse and see how he would respond to what I think he would benefit from, but I can't, so need to shut up. Maybe I can find me a similar horse locally and have myself videoed to be able to show what I would do but even then, the horses could be totally different.

The main thing I didn't like about this session was most apparent at 11:28. A this point, Armas is showing tension and the tension back from the rider can be seen very clearly as her upper body tips forward and her hands come back towards the pommel which to me is a very defensive position and ome that pretty much translates down the rein as rider frustration. A frustrated rider cannot be an effective or balanced (emotionally) rider.

I'd like to see his head position completely forgotten about and the lesson plans to be based purely around relaxation. If that means he doesn't work so correctly through his body for a while, so be it...but it would help in the long term in my opinion.

I understand why the rider did a lot of what she did in this video and I agree with some of it. Just as his other trainers have been confrontational with him, it is good to not allow him to get away with it...but I just think it was a bit too much today given the heat. I've not seen him that hot before.

I'd love to see him do a long walk warm up, a few minutes of loose trotting and then just allowed to canter around on a looseish rein with rider in half seat to just let him move.

Hope that makes sense James. I don't hate it, but I don't love it either. A little patience from the rider would have gone a long way, but good to hear her noticing his right hind evasion.
 
Goingforgold said:
I suspect she is trying to ask him to be round but focusing far to much on the head position and ignoring what the legs are doing.

Armas what are your thoughts on this?
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i don't think she's asking him to be round at all , i think she is asking him for some piaffe steps and he is getting confused , it is a shame that most of you didn't finish watching the video as he is rewarded as soon as he gets it right
the trainer also explains he is tense today maybe because he did nothing yesterday"

i thought he was getting the idea by the end of the session , it seems she is working on some piaffe steps , lateral work and starting canter pirri's with him
all which will activate the hind leg and lift the forhand which by the end of the session helps take his neck more up and out

also you can tell by the position and poise of this rider that they are beyond the stage of focusing on the head and neck and ignoring the back end
i think he looks great fun to ride :)
i'm sure there will be some more experienced posters along soon though ;)
 
Goingforgold said:
Can i add what a truely honest horse this is as the majority of very hot horses would not put up with this? Sorry Armas but i do not see the point to all of these video's, for the same reactions, but never changing your path? Can i ask what it is you hope to gain by posting them?
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My opinion, but because I think he wants top do best by his horse. A lot of the suggestions made have been taken on board, so I think the posting of the videos is just a way to ask other people to give opinions on where we all think it is going.

Much better to ask and know what may need changing, than not ask and carry on regardless.
 
*sigh* James... This is disgraceful. SURELY you can't just sit there and allow this to happen?!
There's not much else to say really.. I hoped that since the first video there would be improvement. This is just....a mess. Your poor horse.
 
angelish said:
i don't think she's asking him to be round at all , i think she is asking him for some piaffe steps and he is getting confused , it is a shame that most of you didn't finish watching the video as he is rewarded as soon as he gets it right
the trainer also explains he is tense today maybe because he did nothing yesterday"

i thought he was getting the idea by the end of the session , it seems she is working on some piaffe steps , lateral work and starting canter pirri's with him
all which will activate the hind leg and lift the forhand which by the end of the session helps take his neck more up and out

also you can tell by the position and poise of this rider that they are beyond the stage of focusing on the head and neck and ignoring the back end
i think he looks great fun to ride :)
i'm sure there will be some more experienced posters along soon though ;)
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It is very much worth watching the whole video...without doing so it will be impossible to see the bits of work that are really very encouraging. He's giving more resistance, but because he is being asked a bit more. What he is being asked though is for his own good and nothing he doesn't already know. He's just having some little tantrums and the rider is not letting him get away with it.

He is taking his weight much more on his hind legs, but with the bigger questions come bigger arguments.
 
I haven't responded really to the other threads, I thought I would give the benefit of the doubt, new combination and all that although I have watched the other videos.

For me now it would be the time to thank this rider for her efforts but say that's enough, there is no real improvement and they are just not a partnership, I would have thought after this many sessions they would have gelled but I just don't think she is the right rider, he is visibly upset around 8 mins in and again later on, she just is not sympathetic enough IMO
 
Hmmm, I didn't think she was asking necessarily for piaffe steps. It looked to me more like she was just not prepared to let him get away with running from the leg and what looks like an attempt at piaffe work is just him having a bit of a tantrum because he can't do what he wants. I only say this as I don't see any set up for piaffe work...just him trying to run through and her not letting him.

Sometimes doing nothing can be the most effective thing though. There were a couple of times where the rider did rein back. A useful exercise, but looked very rushed and bit as though the rider got annoyed. I don't like annoyed or frustrating riding.
 
_GG_ said:
It is very much worth watching the whole video...without doing so it will be impossible to see the bits of work that are really very encouraging. He's giving more resistance, but because he is being asked a bit more. What he is being asked though is for his own good and nothing he doesn't already know. He's just having some little tantrums and the rider is not letting him get away with it.

He is taking his weight much more on his hind legs, but with the bigger questions come bigger arguments.
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oh i agree :o and also with your other post :)
i'm just not very good at putting it across in my posts at times , hence why i'm more of a lurker these days :D

thanks Armas for continuing to post these videos (despite the barrage of crit )they are very interesting and thanks also to you GG for your very interesting responses
its very interesting to here how different people would deal with different evasions
 
What exactly is he stubborn about and what does he try and get away with? Might help clear things up a bit.

Just a clip of a larger piece I read today from Craig Stevens.
The process and complaining about correctness and pre-occupation with these petty details deprives us and our horses of freedom. It can be useful to realise that the point of the discipline of dressage is to remove the pain and discomfort of the horse and not to make the horse "correct".

To me it simply means working with each individual based on what you have under you and forming a plan that works for them. I don't do dressage. I do however need flatwork for my horses. My mare can't be drilled for 45 mins 4 or 5 times a week. It's pointless anyway as she holds her fitness very easily. No point in being fit beyond what I need. But also it would fry her. I'm not worried about perfection. All I want is a happy mare. And something must be working because Mr.Equilibrium Ireland looked at her in the field today and said that mare looks amazing. Best she's looked in 2 years. She's developed well this year. He usually doesn't pay much attention to Abba so I know it's not just in my head.

Terri
 
Goingforgold said:
What I mean is, how can a horse correctly work on Piaffe steps if the basic gaits are not correct? Scales of training are very important in regards to improving the horse in my opinion.
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What he is doing is what is known as a "stress piaffe", many PRE's do it when they are, well; stressed. And many PRE's also offer piaffe at a very early stage, they are bred to do it and it is very natural for them, versus the horrible things often seen at GP level from a lot of warmblood horses bred to lengthen, not compress.
 
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It was a very hard session which the rider acknowledge at the end. There a number of issues today which included him having a tantrum.
Armas default tantrum trick is to piaffe she was not asking for this.
She was working hard today to make him engage his haunch.
Please watch the whole video and then comment. I agree it was not a good session and the rider states this at the end. Being able to identify the issues shows the rider is starting to get to feel the horse.
GG your welcome to come and ride bring the oh for a weekend break !
Sorry for the short response as I am about to eat.
 
She may have been working hard, but she was most certainly not making him engage; he was all over the place and his hind end was in another county. Are you happy with this?
 
I've watched this and all the others with interest but not commented-I don't feel I am in a pisition to-and I'm finding the replies from others very insightful. I do, however, have one genuine question. I'm not asking this to be mean or to highlight this, it's genuine intrigue. Why dies the rider (seemingly randomly) throw her hands forwards at various points throughout? It looks a little like something you do when the looped bit of the reins gets caught under the front of the saddle if you know what I mean...
 
Armas said:
It was a very hard session which the rider acknowledge at the end. There a number of issues today which included him having a tantrum.
Armas default tantrum trick is to piaffe she was not asking for this.
She was working hard today to make him engage his haunch.
Please watch the whole video and then comment. I agree it was not a good session and the rider states this at the end. Being able to identify the issues shows the rider is starting to get to feel the horse.
GG your welcome to come and ride bring the oh for a weekend break !
Sorry for the short response as I am about to eat.
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If I had the spare cash we'd be there, lol. All our money is going on fuel to Manchester and back at every opportunity at the moment to see the SIL, but if it wasn't I would properly take you up on that :D

I'm off now too...giving a lesson to a local girl on a wicked little pony....that has recently learned bucking means no rider. Should be fun...I grew up on one of those...watch out pony...you're about to get owned....lol :eek:
 
I'm 100% not qualified to comment on the riding techniques but do have to say in James defence thar plenty of people send horses for schooling, some are happy to receive weekly updates and don't see their horse till the end if the training but James always attends sessions with Armas. I don't understand the questions as to what his end goal is personally - other people on here are commended for seeking expert help not quizzed as to their longer term goals
 
James I have watched all the videos and I admit to being somewhat confused at what your rider is trying to achieve. However I admire your dedication to this horse (who is gorgeous) and I very much admire the fact that you take all of the critique on here so well. Armas looks like a tricky horse and Im not any expert by any means but for 90% of the time he just doesnt look happy.
 
I haven't seen the video yet but the op has made a decision to post all the sessions with the new trainer, sometimes a session will do badly, sometimes you will take a step back , nothing is perfect 100% of the time. So its a warts and all diary. A brave thing to do. Hopefully armas will be in a better frame of mind next session and progress will continue :-)
 
Armas said:
GG your welcome to come and ride bring the oh for a weekend break !
Sorry for the short response as I am about to eat.
Click to expand...

_GG_ said:
If I had the spare cash we'd be there, lol. All our money is going on fuel to Manchester and back at every opportunity at the moment to see the SIL, but if it wasn't I would properly take you up on that :D
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Seeing as -GG- cannot make it,can I come instead? I can ride,OH is a farrier and we both have GSOH. :D
 
I have watched each of these videos with interest. He looks a difficult horse to ride. I am starting to think this rider is just not right for him, it looks to me like he needs a quiet, sympathetic rider who will leave his head alone for a while and work on asking him to move forward in a relaxed manner. She seems to get stressed out at him when this appears to be the last thing he needs. I do not disagree with your perseverance with this rider but I now think its time to call it a day
 
He is funny. Looks very honest to me :o, I was less uncomfortable with the canter at 20-21, but I desperately wanted her to let him go at that point and just allow him to go forwards. Like we've all said though, who knows we are not on him.

I don't understand going sideways when he isn't yet happy to go forwards, I don't understand the contact when he isn't yet able to seek it. He isn't ready for this work. Rewind and start again. Let him learn to go forwards and then find a contact. It's got to be a better foundation that this?

I still wouldn't be paying her, let alone boxing all that way.
 
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