Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
Why would she need to defend herself? She isn't being attacked, she is being critiqued. You put yourself out there as a professional and it happens.
Training session 8
- Thread starter Armas
- Start date
Why would she need to defend herself? She isn't being attacked, she is being critiqued. You put yourself out there as a professional and it happens.
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it's time Armas had his own forum ? 
charlie76
Well-Known Member
Ok, I have watched the video. Now I have not had a negative comment on any of the threads, however, I will day one thing, until the horse is sound on his right hind she is on a hiding to nothing trying to get him to push from behind and take a true contact. I really believe that your horse is not right behind and that is causing the lack of connection and tension.
I have watched the videos several time and the un level ness is most obvious in this last video.
Sorry.
I have watched the videos several time and the un level ness is most obvious in this last video.
Sorry.
Armas
Well-Known Member
As I have said from the start I am giving the trainer time. That said if things have not changed by the end of the month. We will be changing to our plan B trainer the chap favored by Cortez queen b and a few others.
I am a firm believer in Rome was not built in a day hence my willingness to see how things pan out.
I am a firm believer in Rome was not built in a day hence my willingness to see how things pan out.
risky business
Well-Known Member
I never said she was being attacked did I?
What I'm saying is people are commenting on her actions and its a shame she isn't here to explain what she's trying to achieve herself.
We are all sitting here judging what we see or what we 'think' is going on. It's just a shame we can't hear it from her herself that's all...
What I'm saying is people are commenting on her actions and its a shame she isn't here to explain what she's trying to achieve herself.
We are all sitting here judging what we see or what we 'think' is going on. It's just a shame we can't hear it from her herself that's all...
Armas
Well-Known Member
What was the need for that comment was it constructive or helpful in any way?Perhaps it's time Armas had his own forum ?
No it was just plain rude.
Buds_mum
Well-Known Member
She isn't changing anything, he looks unhappy and stressed.
This article is a highly interesting read http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php
Whatever the argument, armas putting himself there/being held there. I would say as her approach is not solving anything after eight sessions, thats a substantial amount and if she was helping then you should see some difference.
I would say she is less on par with him now than she was in the first session.
I would be very concerned about the physiological issues that over 30 minuets of work in what is effectively rollkur is doing to your horse.
Especially one who has very recently had a nasty episode of choke.
I implore you to open your eyes to how your once beautiful horse is going.
He looks stressed, tense and miserable.
Not once in 30 minuets does she let him stretch, a hugely rewarding and important part of any schooling session and something this horse clearly needs encouraging in.
Just let him enjoy life, his work should be enjoyable its a massive part of having half a tonne of animal on your side.
This article is a highly interesting read http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php
Whatever the argument, armas putting himself there/being held there. I would say as her approach is not solving anything after eight sessions, thats a substantial amount and if she was helping then you should see some difference.
I would say she is less on par with him now than she was in the first session.
I would be very concerned about the physiological issues that over 30 minuets of work in what is effectively rollkur is doing to your horse.
Especially one who has very recently had a nasty episode of choke.
I implore you to open your eyes to how your once beautiful horse is going.
He looks stressed, tense and miserable.
Not once in 30 minuets does she let him stretch, a hugely rewarding and important part of any schooling session and something this horse clearly needs encouraging in.
Just let him enjoy life, his work should be enjoyable its a massive part of having half a tonne of animal on your side.
Armas
Well-Known Member
All the comments are interesting. Thank you for your concern.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't think he is comfortable behind, he looks total different in his hind leg action in these vids compared to the ones with the man riding.
I have a horse with sacroiliac issues , followed by suspensory issues. He looked similar to your horse and like your horse got very tense and upset when asked to engage and take a contact.
Until you address the soundness issues, even Carl hester couldn't make an improvement. He is trying his hardest for you but he physically can't do it.
I have a horse with sacroiliac issues , followed by suspensory issues. He looked similar to your horse and like your horse got very tense and upset when asked to engage and take a contact.
Until you address the soundness issues, even Carl hester couldn't make an improvement. He is trying his hardest for you but he physically can't do it.
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
Agree with others who say its making unpleasant viewing, i can only empathise with the horse who looks very tense, and quite honestly miserable 
I dont like the way the horse is being ridden, i see a rider sitting very heavily in the saddle at times and blocking the horse, i dont see allowing and understanding hands, at times he looks pinned btv. When i compare this to the lovely free flowing Armas ridden by your friends daughter, it speaks volumes.
Your horse, your choice but youve put it up here to be viewed and discussed.
Imo you need to keep looking for a rider who is more sensitive to Armas.
I dont like the way the horse is being ridden, i see a rider sitting very heavily in the saddle at times and blocking the horse, i dont see allowing and understanding hands, at times he looks pinned btv. When i compare this to the lovely free flowing Armas ridden by your friends daughter, it speaks volumes.
Your horse, your choice but youve put it up here to be viewed and discussed.
Imo you need to keep looking for a rider who is more sensitive to Armas.
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
Chill. I wasn't being Narky. Defence is in response to attack, you suggested she might need to be able to 'defend' herself. That's all.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
He's a lovely horse but I agree with others who say this may not be the right fit for him. That isn't a criticism against this trainer through- it's just different horses suit different riders 
I would be very interested to see a session of just long and low with this horse. We had a beautiful stallion with the same default function (if in doubt, bite the chest and look poncy!) at the school I used to work at in Jerez. We used to alternate his training days between a relaxed session just long and low, simple movements with lots of flexion/bend exercises and a "proper" schooling session the following day. It gave him a chance to just chill while still working in between the more intense schooling sessions.
I know your trainer is lunging and stretching before the video starts, as you've previously mentioned. But what I'm talking about is a far more relaxed schooling session.
It seems to me that, perhaps because this trainer places a lot of pressure on herself, or perhaps because the time these two have together is more limited than if he were her horse, each schooling session is a shade desperate. She is trying really hard to get the best out of him and make him uncurl his neck and go properly, but it's counter productive.
I much preferred her hands in the previous video- they were softer and more forgiving. I think in this one she was getting frustrated, which is understandable to an extent, but it's not acceptable when you are sat on a horse who senses that and is affected by it. She braced against him at times which made him hang on even more. She also curls her wrists downwards a lot of the time resulting in a downwards feel rather than softer lifting motion. This again will not help his neck.
Furthermore, she is focussing a lot on the front end and less on the legs. I agree with others who have said he is not quite sound. He's not lame by any means. But he is favouring the other legs and isn't working evenly. This could just be habit from having that restriction previously. He needs to work more through his back; he does not look as strong through there as I would like for a horse doing the sorts of movements he gets asked to do.
He is a lovely boy, and is clearly very honest. I'm just not sure this is the best pairing. But as you say, it's a trial. We'll see what the next video looks like
I would be very interested to see a session of just long and low with this horse. We had a beautiful stallion with the same default function (if in doubt, bite the chest and look poncy!) at the school I used to work at in Jerez. We used to alternate his training days between a relaxed session just long and low, simple movements with lots of flexion/bend exercises and a "proper" schooling session the following day. It gave him a chance to just chill while still working in between the more intense schooling sessions.
I know your trainer is lunging and stretching before the video starts, as you've previously mentioned. But what I'm talking about is a far more relaxed schooling session.
It seems to me that, perhaps because this trainer places a lot of pressure on herself, or perhaps because the time these two have together is more limited than if he were her horse, each schooling session is a shade desperate. She is trying really hard to get the best out of him and make him uncurl his neck and go properly, but it's counter productive.
I much preferred her hands in the previous video- they were softer and more forgiving. I think in this one she was getting frustrated, which is understandable to an extent, but it's not acceptable when you are sat on a horse who senses that and is affected by it. She braced against him at times which made him hang on even more. She also curls her wrists downwards a lot of the time resulting in a downwards feel rather than softer lifting motion. This again will not help his neck.
Furthermore, she is focussing a lot on the front end and less on the legs. I agree with others who have said he is not quite sound. He's not lame by any means. But he is favouring the other legs and isn't working evenly. This could just be habit from having that restriction previously. He needs to work more through his back; he does not look as strong through there as I would like for a horse doing the sorts of movements he gets asked to do.
He is a lovely boy, and is clearly very honest. I'm just not sure this is the best pairing. But as you say, it's a trial. We'll see what the next video looks like
Bryndu
Well-Known Member
Hi again,
I know I said I was not going to watch any more.....but I am a bit addicted to your gorgeous horse
Here's the thing.....at the beginning of the vid....when she did trot walk trot trans (when she actually got them), the difference in the boy's way of going was noticably better.
For me though...she did way too few and a lot of incorrect trans in the session. Overbent horses need to use their back ends to work the front end...and the boy needs at least 1000 transitions in a session.....and I don't mean in slower and faster pace...halt walk halt, trot walk trot, canter trot canter etc.....but correctly done.....pro's know this....
My next issue is with the speed of the trot....he is now learning to evade the rider by going at speed.....and I would question the point of a trot so fast that the rider cannot rise to it.....he is not going forwards in my opinion....but just faster and overbent....pro's know this....
My other worry is that he is getting very....very fit.....and when horses get very ...very fit...as any top event rider will agree....horses are more prone to injury....as are human athletes....and the speed of the trot is accelerating the fitness.....
I would also be concerned about a rider's hands constantly hitting the saddle....this does not show lightness in the hand of the rider.....and we are talking about a pro rider here....
I will once again re iterate.....you ride him better....and I fear when you do ride him again you will be disappointed with the results.....foundations need to be built on rock....not sand.
Best wishes
Bryndu
I know I said I was not going to watch any more.....but I am a bit addicted to your gorgeous horse
Here's the thing.....at the beginning of the vid....when she did trot walk trot trans (when she actually got them), the difference in the boy's way of going was noticably better.
For me though...she did way too few and a lot of incorrect trans in the session. Overbent horses need to use their back ends to work the front end...and the boy needs at least 1000 transitions in a session.....and I don't mean in slower and faster pace...halt walk halt, trot walk trot, canter trot canter etc.....but correctly done.....pro's know this....
My next issue is with the speed of the trot....he is now learning to evade the rider by going at speed.....and I would question the point of a trot so fast that the rider cannot rise to it.....he is not going forwards in my opinion....but just faster and overbent....pro's know this....
My other worry is that he is getting very....very fit.....and when horses get very ...very fit...as any top event rider will agree....horses are more prone to injury....as are human athletes....and the speed of the trot is accelerating the fitness.....
I would also be concerned about a rider's hands constantly hitting the saddle....this does not show lightness in the hand of the rider.....and we are talking about a pro rider here....
I will once again re iterate.....you ride him better....and I fear when you do ride him again you will be disappointed with the results.....foundations need to be built on rock....not sand.
Best wishes
Bryndu
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Here's what I saw, take it or leave it.
There were some moments where Armas stepped underneath himself and lifted the forehand. Unfortunately, these moments were short-lived and not accompanied by a release from the rider, at least not an obvious one that I could see. And when teaching a horse a new thing, an obvious release helps immensely with telling them that they're on the right track. Hence Armas getting frustrated and throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the rider. If he could talk, he'd be saying, "WTF do you want me to do, lady?!"
One thing Mark Rashid emphasises when he talks about where things go wrong for a lot of people training horses is that people fail to reward "the try." They either don't see it or they're greedy and just want more of the behaviour they were asking for. So when the horse tries a little bit of the correct behaviour, the pressure remains and the horse isn't able to work out what the trainer wants and he simply gets frustrated.
I didn't see many tries being rewarded here.
There were some moments where Armas stepped underneath himself and lifted the forehand. Unfortunately, these moments were short-lived and not accompanied by a release from the rider, at least not an obvious one that I could see. And when teaching a horse a new thing, an obvious release helps immensely with telling them that they're on the right track. Hence Armas getting frustrated and throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the rider. If he could talk, he'd be saying, "WTF do you want me to do, lady?!"
One thing Mark Rashid emphasises when he talks about where things go wrong for a lot of people training horses is that people fail to reward "the try." They either don't see it or they're greedy and just want more of the behaviour they were asking for. So when the horse tries a little bit of the correct behaviour, the pressure remains and the horse isn't able to work out what the trainer wants and he simply gets frustrated.
I didn't see many tries being rewarded here.
littleladylou
Well-Known Member
Armas, regardless of what any expert says surely you can see that your horse is uncomfortable and tense and probably stressed. My neck and jaw and head aches just watching that. It makes me cringe. You are so respected as a horse owner on here and people love your horse. Get him out of there
be positive
Well-Known Member
I did not watch all of this video but my thoughts are the same as watching the previous ones, I feel her timing is out, she clicks at him which winds him up at times he should be encouraged to relax, she pats his neck which should either be a reward or again a relaxing aid but it never seems to be at the correct time. He is not established in the basics yet she is pushing for collection and towards piaffe, I understand the reasoning but it fails to get him engaged just creates more tension which then leads to arguments, he is struggling to trot, walk, trot at the start, the hopping into canter shows he is finding it hard to step under yet she continues in the same way with no improvement.
I see a rider with ability but limited tools at her disposal, Armas is less btv but at the expense of more tension everywhere else, he looks uncomfortable behind which may be causing some of the problems, what is the rush, it takes months/ years to educate a horse without any issues yet it appears that Armas is being expected to produce work way beyond what he is capable of without any foundations being established.
He may be tricky but no more than many horses that have a bright mind and are missing parts of their education but a few months spent putting the foundations in place without the rushing to progress beyond his capabilities will be well worthwhile, he is your horse to do with as you please but if pushed too far physically something will go wrong and then what are you left with?
I see a rider with ability but limited tools at her disposal, Armas is less btv but at the expense of more tension everywhere else, he looks uncomfortable behind which may be causing some of the problems, what is the rush, it takes months/ years to educate a horse without any issues yet it appears that Armas is being expected to produce work way beyond what he is capable of without any foundations being established.
He may be tricky but no more than many horses that have a bright mind and are missing parts of their education but a few months spent putting the foundations in place without the rushing to progress beyond his capabilities will be well worthwhile, he is your horse to do with as you please but if pushed too far physically something will go wrong and then what are you left with?
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
^^^^ this, but also i think psychologically this kind of pressure every other day is likely to blow his mind and really sour him which would be very sad
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Hi again,
I know I said I was not going to watch any more.....but I am a bit addicted to your gorgeous horse
Here's the thing.....at the beginning of the vid....when she did trot walk trot trans (when she actually got them), the difference in the boy's way of going was noticably better.
For me though...she did way too few and a lot of incorrect trans in the session. Overbent horses need to use their back ends to work the front end...and the boy needs at least 1000 transitions in a session.....and I don't mean in slower and faster pace...halt walk halt, trot walk trot, canter trot canter etc.....but correctly done.....pro's know this....
My next issue is with the speed of the trot....he is now learning to evade the rider by going at speed.....and I would question the point of a trot so fast that the rider cannot rise to it.....he is not going forwards in my opinion....but just faster and overbent....pro's know this....
My other worry is that he is getting very....very fit.....and when horses get very ...very fit...as any top event rider will agree....horses are more prone to injury....as are human athletes....and the speed of the trot is accelerating the fitness.....
I would also be concerned about a rider's hands constantly hitting the saddle....this does not show lightness in the hand of the rider.....and we are talking about a pro rider here....
I will once again re iterate.....you ride him better....and I fear when you do ride him again you will be disappointed with the results.....foundations need to be built on rock....not sand.
Best wishes
Bryndu
Agree with much of this.
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
So am I back in fashion? (I have a sense of humour I promise)
(I have a sense of humour I promise)
doriangrey
Well-Known Member
Three little words ... Jean Luc Cornille 
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I wasn't going to continue posting on these threads because I'm finding the aggro on them pretty tiring tbh, but this point ^^ is what keeps me going. Again, for those who missed it previously, here is my disclaimer - I am not a disciple of this trainer, I don't think she is without fault, but I do think some balance is needed as she is the one riding the horse and I don't think she's completely rubbish!
Anyway. Here's what I thought about today for anyone who might be open to a different viewpoint.
I watched this expecting something truly horrendous. I don't think it was, and if any of us can really claim to never have had a bad day with a horse esp in the beginning of what is essentially a re-education, then good on you, Carl and Charlotte will be quaking in their boots
It's nice to have the sound in this video, I like to hear what she's saying to him. (and the drink-slurping!!
)I know when I have those days when nothing is going right I pack it in and go for a hack. It's a bit different when someone has brought their horse over to you for you to ride - can't really just 'give up' at the first sign of trouble.
I can see what she's getting at with the walk/trot and forward trot/collected trot which is resulting in the bunny hopping. She begins with trot-walk-trot transitions but each upward one he hops into canter instead of actually going forward. So it's a reasonable progression to swap to on and back in trot first, to try to avoid one little misunderstanding.
I think if I was riding and got stuck in canter at that point , I'd possibly work on the same exercise in canter for a bit first instead, but that's a point of opinion and she IS rewarding him at the moment he answers the question by allowing him on. I think I'd have *pushed* less in the bringing back - at times he comes back for a few steps and then she is a little ambitious, perhaps,asks for a bit too long and he bunny hops instead. I don't know if I would have asked for rein back either but he looks rather strong at times - it's one way to address that.
I enjoyed hearing what she had to say in the walk break. And also heard her chuckle to herself a few times before that, which to me does not suggest that she was being rattled by him or getting frustrated at that point. I laugh with my horse when she is throwing her toys out of the pram -it's not unsympathetic but shows a healthy perspective on the rider's part IMO
and keeps the mind and body relaxed.I think my instinct after watching the trotting would have been to canter more forward first BUT I have also used travers and large working piros to encourage my horse to sit and let the energy through when she's blocking me as well, and she did have some moments when the tension eased so it wasn't necessarily *wrong*.
The walk piro-canter transitions were a bit of a mystery to me because a few times he didn't go off her leg, and when he finally did, she collected immediately. I think I'd have ridden forward at that point, but as I've said before we don't know what her thought process is. The little discussion about the right hind stepping out rather than under is probably a clue to what she was aiming for. The last one was obviously what she wanted as she allowed him on and he stretched out again.
Several times she says it's hard for him. So she is obviously appreciating what is being asked of the horse and isn't blind to his weak points.
Anyway. Fire away everyone
zoon
Well-Known Member
She's trying to run before she can walk - he lacks relaxation, rhythm, contact... And she jumps right to the end attempting collection by trying canter pirouettes.
TheTrotter.
Well-Known Member
.......
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Actually I don't agree that the scales of training are hierarchical or 'ordered' like that. I think most of them are co-dependent
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't agree that the scales of training are hierarchical or 'ordered' like that. I think most of them are co-dependent
I agree, but I do think the first two need to be the basis of everything and collection should only be introduced when a horse is physically and mentally strong enough to cope with it.
TheTrotter.
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't agree that the scales of training are hierarchical or 'ordered' like that. I think most of them are co-dependent
I don't think its 'set' like that, as in it has to be in that order, at the end of the day it depends on the individual horse, but I think it should be used as a guide, and certainly as _GG_ has said above, the first two steps should be the most important part of training.
To me in the videos armas has posted, it looks like the trainer is trying to run before she can walk, and is asking for collection before any of the above, by concentrating on his head carriage before the horse is working correctly from behind, once he is working correctly and pushing through from his hinds, his head carriage should come...
Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm no top dressage rider, just saying my personal opinion?
TheTrotter.
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity James, what is armas like when working on a loose contact?
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I don't think its 'set' like that, as in it has to be in that order, at the end of the day it depends on the individual horse, but I think it should be used as a guide, and certainly as _GG_ has said above, the first two steps should be the most important part of training.
To me in the videos armas has posted, it looks like the trainer is trying to run before she can walk, and is asking for collection before any of the above, by concentrating on his head carriage before the horse is working correctly from behind, once he is working correctly and pushing through from his hinds, his head carriage should come...
Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm no top dressage rider, just saying my personal opinion?
In my personal opinion, you are right. I will add the caveat though that we are not on the horse, so the trainer may be using the collection as a means to an end.
The have been many moments through the videos where it is moments after brief collection that the horse has been allowed forwards and has given some really lovely work. So...she may well be using collection as a way of creating "good" moments in order to reward.
I think any true collected work is pointless unless a horse is truly relaxed, supple and steady in the contact....enough that he may not even need contact.
That last bit is a toughy for modern dressage riders to understand sometimes, but it is basically imo when you can achieve the movements through your seat and weight distribution, your core and your legs to a certain degree.
Actually, with all trainers, Armas has shown moments of collected work where he is above the vertical and not held in a contact...actually on a loose rein, so he can do it. I do think today was too much of it for where he currently is though.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Yes. I'm just making a general point to the ether again
They are often the best ones