pinktiger
Well-Known Member
I Agree that this is the way forward, esp the comments that i read in the HNH today, that hunting really produces expert riding xc!!!
TRAINING TO PREVENT ACCIDENTS IN EVENTING
- Thread starter pinktiger
- Start date
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I would agree. But what happens to people who can't hunt? Perhaps this is not such an issue in the UK but it is in most other countries - no eventing for them, then? As cities grow larger, land use gets more restricted, social attitudes change, the stakes increase etc. etc. the circumstances change for everyone. Looking backward for ideas is useful but setting the clock back is not, alas, an option.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i disagree. i have known a lot of people who have hunted for years, but could not safely present a horse at a combination fence.
it is the type of training we undergo that matters. Lucinda's exercises with odd distances and lightweight poles, jumping from walk, from bizarre turns, with reins on the buckle end, all the things that show how you and the horse react when things aren't right, are one of the answers imho. we need a lot more additional training and assessment.
it is the type of training we undergo that matters. Lucinda's exercises with odd distances and lightweight poles, jumping from walk, from bizarre turns, with reins on the buckle end, all the things that show how you and the horse react when things aren't right, are one of the answers imho. we need a lot more additional training and assessment.
Baydale
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
i disagree. i have known a lot of people who have hunted for years, but could not safely present a horse at a combination fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, my OH is a prime example of that but thankfully he has a very good defensive position and trusts his horses to do their job! He can see a stride (or rather he says he knows when he's on a wrong 'un) but he doesn't know how to change things in time so would rather leave the horse to sort it out than interfere and do something wrong.
i disagree. i have known a lot of people who have hunted for years, but could not safely present a horse at a combination fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, my OH is a prime example of that but thankfully he has a very good defensive position and trusts his horses to do their job! He can see a stride (or rather he says he knows when he's on a wrong 'un) but he doesn't know how to change things in time so would rather leave the horse to sort it out than interfere and do something wrong.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
that's fine, because his horses will know that they have to sort it out for themselves, as long as he points them at it and provides a bit of push, it'll be fine 99.999% of the time, or hopefully 100 (!!), i've seen a lot of people (some of them not exactly the best riders) ride safely like that to hounds for years.
the danger comes when a rider who usually dominates the striding and micro-manages the horse, so switching off its natural instinct to see the stride for itself, is, unusually, on a misser. suddenly they either chuck the reins at the horse with an "it's all over to you now, boy" attitude, or hook desperately, or just freeze and hope.
Bettina Hoy, no mean rider of course, is one of these imho. that's why she doesn't seem to be able to ride a horse round a 4* any more... her fall in the water on the coloured at Burghley 2 years ago was a classic example of the above. she is an exemplary rider on the flat and over showjumps, but her horses just don't seem to know how to help her out xc. i don't know why she hasn't done a 4* for a while... perhaps because she's realised this and is smarter than a lot of riders who haven't yet?
the danger comes when a rider who usually dominates the striding and micro-manages the horse, so switching off its natural instinct to see the stride for itself, is, unusually, on a misser. suddenly they either chuck the reins at the horse with an "it's all over to you now, boy" attitude, or hook desperately, or just freeze and hope.
Bettina Hoy, no mean rider of course, is one of these imho. that's why she doesn't seem to be able to ride a horse round a 4* any more... her fall in the water on the coloured at Burghley 2 years ago was a classic example of the above. she is an exemplary rider on the flat and over showjumps, but her horses just don't seem to know how to help her out xc. i don't know why she hasn't done a 4* for a while... perhaps because she's realised this and is smarter than a lot of riders who haven't yet?
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
My mother has hunted all her life and she would not be safe to go xc. She would ask for long strides all the time and take liabilities. My mother and I argue about riding all the time as she says I do too much for the horse especially SJ and should leave him alone where as I think she is being naive.
The best training to have is a good trainer who calls a spade a spade and works on you and the horse constantly.
The best training to have is a good trainer who calls a spade a spade and works on you and the horse constantly.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of people who hunt who don't want to become event riders. (And who shouldn't even try!
)
It is an additional string to your bow if you can do it. From a rider's viewpoint, you learn to think on your feet if you are jumping, and from the horse's side he learns to cope with all sorts of terrain, distractions, stopping and starting, and jumping odd fences at funny angles without the perfect canter approach. You don't need to hunt full time to gain enough experience to make it useful, three or so days for a horse is adequate, and it also gives you an idea of what you are sitting on outwith a controlled situation.
It is an additional string to your bow if you can do it. From a rider's viewpoint, you learn to think on your feet if you are jumping, and from the horse's side he learns to cope with all sorts of terrain, distractions, stopping and starting, and jumping odd fences at funny angles without the perfect canter approach. You don't need to hunt full time to gain enough experience to make it useful, three or so days for a horse is adequate, and it also gives you an idea of what you are sitting on outwith a controlled situation.
Baydale
Well-Known Member
Out of interest GtF, have you followed much eventing over there as I seem to have an abiding memory of French event riders being particularly speedy. Do they have similar levels of fatalities, I seem to remember one girl not so long ago? And am I right in thinking that have a system of tests/exams to allow them to compete?
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
The standard here is much lower than the UK. There are a few top riders who are competent, but the rest are sadly wanting. The 3* events that I have seen are more like a stiff 2*, and a lot of the riding is PN. They do go very fast, there seems to be a lack of judgement of the pace and engagement necessary.
The horses, however, are superb......their breeding programmes are well set up, and the tracing of pedigrees and relatives is the same as in Wetherbys registers. I think if the French had some of the UK horses to deal with, there would be more trouble.
There have been, AFAIK, two young female riders killed in the last six months.
I watched Pomopadour last year, and thought I was watching the 1* until someone pointed out it was the 3*....
I saw two heavy horse falls, both completely rider error. One rider decided to gallop at the skinny into water, the poor horse lengthened as told, and tried to jump, but somersaulted. Most of the horses I've known would have stopped or ducked out, but this horse was so honest he tried.
They have a system of exams, probably on a par with the pony club tests, but are less stringently judged. It's the usual love of paperwork that creates them, not the safety aspect at all. Most riders here still ride without hats on the roads or jumping.
But this kind of backs up my point...these guys are trained in arenas, and rarely get to ride in situations whereby they need to think on their feet.....the horses do it all for them.
Whilst I hate being overly critical of anyone who puts a lot into the sport, when J L Bigot lost his beautiful horse last year at Badminton it was a horrible accident, but he missed bigtime at the Vicarage Vee, as he had done at several fences previously. The horse was awesome to have kept trying for him, but paid the ultimate cost. I feel bad using him as an example, as it was a freak accident with the flagpole, but a horse with less ability may well have crashed and burned earlier.
The one that really scares me is Nicolas Touzaint......watching him ride lesser horses is not a joy to behold..flat out and flapping, or gobbing the horse so hard it holds it's head so high it can hardly see.
I do like French horses though.....
The horses, however, are superb......their breeding programmes are well set up, and the tracing of pedigrees and relatives is the same as in Wetherbys registers. I think if the French had some of the UK horses to deal with, there would be more trouble.
There have been, AFAIK, two young female riders killed in the last six months.
I watched Pomopadour last year, and thought I was watching the 1* until someone pointed out it was the 3*....
I saw two heavy horse falls, both completely rider error. One rider decided to gallop at the skinny into water, the poor horse lengthened as told, and tried to jump, but somersaulted. Most of the horses I've known would have stopped or ducked out, but this horse was so honest he tried.
They have a system of exams, probably on a par with the pony club tests, but are less stringently judged. It's the usual love of paperwork that creates them, not the safety aspect at all. Most riders here still ride without hats on the roads or jumping.
But this kind of backs up my point...these guys are trained in arenas, and rarely get to ride in situations whereby they need to think on their feet.....the horses do it all for them.
Whilst I hate being overly critical of anyone who puts a lot into the sport, when J L Bigot lost his beautiful horse last year at Badminton it was a horrible accident, but he missed bigtime at the Vicarage Vee, as he had done at several fences previously. The horse was awesome to have kept trying for him, but paid the ultimate cost. I feel bad using him as an example, as it was a freak accident with the flagpole, but a horse with less ability may well have crashed and burned earlier.
The one that really scares me is Nicolas Touzaint......watching him ride lesser horses is not a joy to behold..flat out and flapping, or gobbing the horse so hard it holds it's head so high it can hardly see.
I do like French horses though.....
KatB
Well-Known Member
Have to agree re Nicholas TZ
Not a fan of his riding at all!!!
I think alot of people as Kerilli says have become too controlling over their horse. You have to trust a horse to get over what you present it at, and it is our responsbility to present them balanced, but that is is! We have to teach our horses to be obedient and want to do their job, but then leave them to do it instead of dictating every stride.
I think alot of people as Kerilli says have become too controlling over their horse. You have to trust a horse to get over what you present it at, and it is our responsbility to present them balanced, but that is is! We have to teach our horses to be obedient and want to do their job, but then leave them to do it instead of dictating every stride.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I don't think the point was necessarily that hunting makes good event riders - or even good event horses - just that having those varied experiences, learning to be adaptable and flexible (literally and figuratively) is PART of the equation. Obviously anyone wanting to event would not expect to get all they need to know from hunting, not even for xc.
Anyway, as I said, it's a moot point. It seems to be very fashionable to say if we could just go back to the way things were it would all be fine but that's neither helpful nor possible. And obviously there are other ways to get the necessary training and experience, including those bits that can't necessarily be taught in the ring.
Anyway, as I said, it's a moot point. It seems to be very fashionable to say if we could just go back to the way things were it would all be fine but that's neither helpful nor possible. And obviously there are other ways to get the necessary training and experience, including those bits that can't necessarily be taught in the ring.
Starbucks
Well-Known Member
Well I've done lots and lots of hunting and I'm still sh*t, plus plenty of people have rotational falls hunting as well as eventing!!
I think it might be hunting that makes the horse safer than the rider maybe? I think they learn how to look after themselves a bit more.
I think it might be hunting that makes the horse safer than the rider maybe? I think they learn how to look after themselves a bit more.
missfroufrou
Active Member
I am no expert in any of these areas but just from observation perhaps on a XC course these days things happen really quickly on two counts :
1. no roads and tracks to take the edge off the brave and the quick
2. the highly technical at high speed seems to me to be a highly dangerous combination.
When I initially heard about the loss of road and track and steeple chase phases I felt really glad ( i thought horses would benefit), but now I'm not so sure, I think it has encouraged a different test of horses and riders, perhaps one where the horse is expected to make a decision very quickly, rather than using the skills that were supposed to reflect the hunting field experience - kick on and sheer bravery, it was less to do with calculation and more to do with horse/rider relationship, trust determination and bravery which for me is a fairer test XC, why should the onus now be on a horse making a decision? The rider points the horse at the jump after all!
1. no roads and tracks to take the edge off the brave and the quick
2. the highly technical at high speed seems to me to be a highly dangerous combination.
When I initially heard about the loss of road and track and steeple chase phases I felt really glad ( i thought horses would benefit), but now I'm not so sure, I think it has encouraged a different test of horses and riders, perhaps one where the horse is expected to make a decision very quickly, rather than using the skills that were supposed to reflect the hunting field experience - kick on and sheer bravery, it was less to do with calculation and more to do with horse/rider relationship, trust determination and bravery which for me is a fairer test XC, why should the onus now be on a horse making a decision? The rider points the horse at the jump after all!
kerilli
Well-Known Member
re: those points.
1. i don't think the roads and tracks ever took "the edge off the brave and the quick." in my experience (3 days, old style with 'chase, at 1 2 and 3 star level) it did the opposite. jumping that many easy fences on forward strides at speed made my usually sensible, obedient, thinking horses into lions as they came out of the start box of the xc... they'd take the first 3 on like steeplechase fences, taking strides out if i wasn't careful. at one days, they would never normally start like that.
perhaps it settled the lunatics, i never rode one of those, but it put fire in the bellies of politer horses!
2. xc is not about the horse being expected to make a decision very quickly... unless the rider gets it horribly wrong. a good rider (and i'm not just talking about the big names here) has learnt how to present a horse at a fence in such a way as to give it a good inkling as to what is on the other side of the fence, and what it's expected to do when it gets there. so, i'd approach a plain xc upright in a certain way, but approach it differently if i knew there was a big drop on the landing side, differently again if there was another fence at 90 degrees, or it was the first part of a bounce... all different approaches. only if i fluff it up massively, or the horse chooses to ignore me and accelerate into trouble, does s/he then need to make quick decisions... otherwise, if it all goes to plan, then my speed, line and engine are correct, and make the puzzle obvious, making it easy for the horse to do the right thing in the middle and jump the fences. it's still to do with the relationship and trust and determination and bravery.
only bad or inexperienced riders going too fast leave the decision making up to the horse to that extent, imho.
1. i don't think the roads and tracks ever took "the edge off the brave and the quick." in my experience (3 days, old style with 'chase, at 1 2 and 3 star level) it did the opposite. jumping that many easy fences on forward strides at speed made my usually sensible, obedient, thinking horses into lions as they came out of the start box of the xc... they'd take the first 3 on like steeplechase fences, taking strides out if i wasn't careful. at one days, they would never normally start like that.
perhaps it settled the lunatics, i never rode one of those, but it put fire in the bellies of politer horses!
2. xc is not about the horse being expected to make a decision very quickly... unless the rider gets it horribly wrong. a good rider (and i'm not just talking about the big names here) has learnt how to present a horse at a fence in such a way as to give it a good inkling as to what is on the other side of the fence, and what it's expected to do when it gets there. so, i'd approach a plain xc upright in a certain way, but approach it differently if i knew there was a big drop on the landing side, differently again if there was another fence at 90 degrees, or it was the first part of a bounce... all different approaches. only if i fluff it up massively, or the horse chooses to ignore me and accelerate into trouble, does s/he then need to make quick decisions... otherwise, if it all goes to plan, then my speed, line and engine are correct, and make the puzzle obvious, making it easy for the horse to do the right thing in the middle and jump the fences. it's still to do with the relationship and trust and determination and bravery.
only bad or inexperienced riders going too fast leave the decision making up to the horse to that extent, imho.