Trakhener or Holsteiner (to go on TB mare). Generalisations please!

kerilli

kerilli

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I've not had any dealings at all with Holsteiners, so would appreciate any feedback, still trying to decide between stallions. I know generalisations are dangerous though...
e.g. the 2 Hannoverian crosses i've had have both been supreme athletes with fab temperaments but also the spookiest gits I ever put a saddle on!
Anything I should know about Holsteiners please? I know a bit about Traks and am not put off...!
 
Friend has a mare I believe is by a holsteiner - she comes on here sometimes so may post (username is Fruity) and I believe her horse's breeder also posts. You might remember the mare - it was the one in the daily mail with a grass allergy! Anyway, she is (again, may be wrong) out of a TB x NF mare? She's very very athletic, relatively long legs/short body type, she's also quite stubborn! But has the potential to be a very nice little sports horse - is little (15hh or thereabouts) but that will be the NF I imagine!
I have a russian trakhener mare so slightly finer than the german strain, she is 19 now and semi retired but in her heyday my god could she jump. Wasn't particularly straightforward but had been shunted from pillar to post before I had her, and once fully settled and trusting is the sweetest mare you could hope to meet.
But as you say all generalisations!
 
I have a Holsteiner by Lansing. He has a lovely temperament. Is well behaved generally and jumps like his daddy - like a stag. Great sports horses.
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I have several trakehners, no dealings with Holsteiners. All of my traks are talented but sensitive. I love the breed but would now go for a half bred rather than pure bred to get a slightly calmer temperament. Only one out of 4 of mine is spooky, the rest are as bold as brass.
 
As 60% comes from the mare dont blame the Hanoverian Stallion all my eventers and dressage horses have wonderful temprements. Remeber a Hannover cross TB can be branded Hanoverian always a good point when sellling are pink papers.
 
Have known of two trakenhers... One was evil in the field and stable, and would only put as much effort into his work as he wanted, which wasnt very much. Other one I know of was mine, better than the first one, but hard work to ride. However he has gone to a quiet yard now and is much better than when I had him.
 
Known / ridden a couple of Holsteiners and hove found (only from these 2 and one belonging to a friend) that they tend to mature very late mentally - all have taken until 7yo to really start 'learning' all picked things up very quickly but struggled to 'keep it' - lovely horses though and would certainly go that way personally rahter than trak.

Also to add - have never known/ridden a spooky hann
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is this for katy's love match?... why don't you look at some irish sports horse stallions?... or a shorter backed more american stamp tb?... do you particularily want to put her to warmbloody types?... imo most top event horses are mainly tb and the trend for wbs is dying off *prepares to be shot down in flames about that huge generalization*
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Mmm not sure I agree with that Chloe!
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William has several 'warmbloods' now and Tina has recently bought several despite having tb's in her family blood! And then of course you have the Billy Stud......
 
The warmbloods that are popular have a HUGE % of TB, remember effectively a TB can be on a warmblood stud book...
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so have to agree with ISZ. Also, alot of the irish horses have a small amount of "warmblood" in them now
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Holsteins bred to jump. Tend to move with hocks behind themselves. Bred for power.

Trakheners lighter build, lighter movers, flatter action, have their own style jumping (very tidy but most I have seen do not bring the knees quite as high as a horse with a rounder action)

(if Condios is the Holstein, who is the Trak?)
 
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As 60% comes from the mare dont blame the Hanoverian Stallion all my eventers and dressage horses have wonderful temprements. Remeber a Hannover cross TB can be branded Hanoverian always a good point when sellling are pink papers.

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hmm. one of these hann crosses was homebred, out of the mare i took from baby to 3*, who never spooked at anything in her entire life. her daughter would not even hack up the road or go around the arena without hysterical double-takes in all directions, near and far...! really could not blame the mare for that one!
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her other daughter is not spooky at all. (and nor, to be fair, was the Hann sire, it was just a Very Bad Match)

Chloe, got to disagree with you there. we're seeing more and more wb influence, because of their superior movement and athleticism. very very few tbs or idxtbs have that kind of movement naturally, i'd say less than 1% of tbs. as said above, a LOT of wbs have a huge tb influence anyway.

chazza, Condios is the Holsteiner, you're right, Axis is the Trak. argh, decisions decisions. wish i had a private jet and could have a quick flit around to eyeball them both, make my mind up in a flash then!
thanks for answers everyone!
 
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The warmbloods that are popular have a HUGE % of TB,

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yeah that's what I meant when I said...

'imo most top event horses are mainly tb and the trend for wbs is dying off' I didn't mean mainly straight tb I meant each horse had a large tb influence. I thought that recently there was a move away from the more chunky dressagey wb types because they weren't making the time xc or had the bravery of a more tb bred horse?...

I'm sure I read that somewhere..... *scratches head*
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Holsteiners, Oldenbergs Hannovarians etc.

Are often very similarly bred it just depends which part of the country they are bred in to which stamp they have on them!

I own a belgian warmblood, but if you look at his pedigree he is 98% Hannovarian. He is an amazing horse i adore him.
 
The stud books are a bit misleading as a Holsteiner may be part Trak and vice versa! Out of the two, I'd be inclined to go for Condios - I think temperament wise, he'd suit Katy more than Axis.
 
Don't know much about Traks... my young Holstein is fab and I would definitely get another of these again. Very sane for 5 years old, fabulous jump, and really lovely straight paces. He's for sale and I have had a lot of conversations over the phone with people about the breed - most call because they are in favour of it and have known nice Holsteins - it's definitely a sellable breed.

Only downside might be spookiness. Mine isn't bad but if it's a windy day or a sheep looks at him funny, he definitely has a spook in him. Never unseating or nasty - nowhere near as bad as my old Hann. I think it's babyish and already getting a lot better.
 
i have a pure holsteiner (sjer) and i think a hell of a lot of him super sheer ability but agree with the late mental development, very smart horse just takes a long time to sink in and keeping the concentration can be an issue, but ive had a few eventers ask about him as he is an eventing "stamp" and i think he would do well, he is by quickstar and anything on that line may be worth a look
 
You cant generalise on type at all-'holsteiner' is just the stud book name that the owner chose to register the horse with,based on where the horse was born/imported to. Its not a breed. I.E Lauries Crusador was bred to be a racehorse, and would have german racehorse TB papers and then also have been given a Hannoverian passport when they started to use him as a dressage sire. Lots of examples like that- every studbook is a real mix of different types- imported Irish horses, dutch horses, hannoverians, racehorse TB's - there is no type anymore so you cant really generalise on what its going to be like, its all down to the individual bloodlines.

Anyway, to help with the decision making again!
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Condios has virtually identical bloodlines to Cavalier Royale who was world no.1 event sire, plus he has far better, bigger sturdier feet than the Trak
 
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The stud books are a bit misleading as a Holsteiner may be part Trak and vice versa! Out of the two, I'd be inclined to go for Condios - I think temperament wise, he'd suit Katy more than Axis.

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No, i think you'll find that the Trak studbook is closed to anything other than tb, according to what i've read recently. it's only the other wb breeds that allow others into their studbooks. ready to be corrected though.

Condios has more bone i think and definitely bigger feet. my farrier nearly swooned yesterday when i showed him a pic of Condios, cos his feet look so good!

have also had Kasparow suggested, 1/2 brother to Axis (same sire EH Sixtus), v nice horse, tons on his website kasparow.com, incl vids of him jumping sj poles on fire (!) and a full-size plastic horse. those Germans are nuts!
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lots of him going xc at Ede and Fontainebleu, looks v easy and happy xc. i like him a LOT too...!

O_B, definitely agree about the feet! i think Condios is really starting to get noticed in Ireland, he only covered 5 mares there in 04, due to competing in Europe all season, yet of those 5, 2 have just taken the top 2 places in the last 2 Future Event Horse League qualifiers...

Chloe, i've looked at TBs but tbh the feet are SUCH a major issue with Katy, i've got to go for something which is as guaranteed-as-possible to improve her feet. better movement would also be great. can't find a tb or idxtb with those 2 nearly guaranteed! any of the 2 (3) i'm talking about above should hopefully do it!

thanks everyone!
 

I'm not sure that is necessarily correct O_B?

I have a holstein. He is registered with Zangersheide and Holstein is his breed NOT his stud book.

The holstein is actually an old carriage horse, refined to make the WB that it is today.

I would echo the comments of others - mine is very talented at jumping - he's actually more of a middle weight than other WBs that I have had. He can be spooky and nappy, but generally he is a strong and striking horse with a lot of presence. I wouldn't say he is the smartest of the herd though....
 
I think the Trakhener society in Germany run or until recently ran a closed studbook, ie they only accepted Pure bred Trakheners as stallions with the exception of certain TB or Arab sires. This has kept the breed quite pure, distinctive in their looks and movement and easy to recognise.
The other German breeds are now much more of a mixture and use TB and Trakhener stallions for refining their breeds.
 
I would vote for Condios, given the choice. Obviously depends on the individual stallion, but I would look at SF, Han and Holst. And there is also Chairman (Holsteiner, mainly TB and SF) who sired my gelding (see www.nickwyatt.co.uk).
 
Chairman is dead, so frozen only, and inho not as good as Condios.

there will be a lot more Holstein owners than Trak owners on here, by virtue of sheer numbers, as the Trak is a very small stud book compared to Holstein.
My advanced mare Gerty is Holstein x TB and a big strapping stamp of mare with big feet!

Trakehners are the closest in type to Thoroughbred of the warmbloods, being as they are based on cavalry horses not farm horses as their base stock, and having only ever been improved by arab or thoroughbred blood. In fact the Trakehner is often used as an improvement sire in eg the Hanoverian stud book, take the success of stallions like Hohenstein through His Highness and Hochandel etc etc.

I think the fact you are still considering Condios despite the worry of frozen only, means he is by far your favourite. Kasparow is a cracker, looks like such a fun horse, but he's a little smaller in the flesh than Axis, not quite as good a mover. Owner is a lovely lady and he is certainly versitile.
 
thanks volatis, invaluable knowledge as ever. i thought Kasparow didn't move quite as well as Axis, from the vids, so although he's lovely and looks as if he has an amazing brain and attitude, i will go back to the other 2. love both of them, want 1 by both please!
btw, reading that article, both Liebling II and Flemmingh are Holsteiners, that was news to me!
 
no valid points to make but my brown in my siggy is by Cavalier Royale out of a P2P mare. I do rather like him myself! Surely a Trak to TB would be super similar in type?
 
QR, Kerelli, but Yarlands Summer Song is a Trak x TB.

His sire was Fleetwater Oppostion, as was Nicola Wilson's Opposition Buzz.

Sorry if you already knew this.......... just thought it worth a mention!
 
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