Transitions!

[dressage_diva]

My WB has a fabulous canter - he clearly finds it very easy to sit and remain uphill and it's clearly his strongest pace. He finds walk to canter transitions easy and likewise can collect his canter effortlessly to come back to walk. However because of this I've managed to completely lose any transitions to trot! After we've had the first canter in any training sessions (just a forward canter around the arena) he has walk-canter transitions on his brain and I find it very difficult to get trot! When I ask for downwards transition from canter into trot I get walk! If I use more leg in the transition he just comes back to walk for a stride and then does a beautifully uphill canter transition! I have tried saying 'trot' and rising but he just keeps trying to do canter transitions! When I do eventually get trot he then tries to offer me a canter transition every so often (eg when I start turning into a circle!). If I do instead bring him back to walk and ask for trot I yet again get a canter transition!

I make sure I'm very clear with my leg aids to distinguish between both legs saying forward into trot and using my inside/outside leg differently in the canter transition but I still can't crack it! It never used to be a problem but has started to occur after I practiced lots of walk-canter-walk transitions the other week and now it's happening every schooling session and my trainer is away on holiday for a couple of weeks so I have to try and solve this issue myself.

I'm not sure if he's doing it to be naughty or if he is genuinely confused and thinks he's offering me the right thing (he's quite a hot/sensitive warmblood!).

Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks

 

[keepitugly]

I'd make my aids very obviously different for the time being, I'd really knock the outside leg back for canter. He sounds like he's just thinking you want canter because that's what you've been doing and he's not actually realising you're giving a different aid.

I'd ask for trot and if he canters bring him back to walk straight away, or trot if you can, but if not then ask again, once you've got the trot back, make sure you can do loads of walk trot transitions then introduce the canter again with a very obvious aid and play with it. The important thing is to correct him straight away if he makes a mistake and goes into canter otherwise he will be confused.

What does he do on the lunge?

 

[be positive]

I think he is probably slightly dropping behind your aids rather than collecting his canter before the downward transition so he then finds it easy to just drop into walk, to go into trot from canter he needs to work harder and have more engagement so he is taking the easy option and walking. I would try bringing the canter back to a powerful collection with plenty of leg on, then back up through the gears to medium a few times so he stops thinking backwards when you collect him, once he realises dropping behind means going forward again he should stop anticipating walk and be happy to trot when asked.

It is mainly confusion, he thinks he knows what you want and is trying to please, being a hot sensitive type you do need to ensure you keep your legs on, I would not bring him back to walk if he canters instead of trotting as I think that may make him stress, I would go onto a circle and ask clearly for trot or even do some counter canter by changing the rein so you are doing something forward and positive with him rather than backwards and possibly negative, they sometimes need to have things made easy and fun to keep them onside and prevent them tightening up when they think they are doing something wrong, I am assuming he is a younger horse, if older and should know better I would probably treat it differently.

 

[crabbymare]

as well as the ideas above you could try shoulder fore in canter to either shoulder in in trot or at the half marker go across the short diagonal in trot as its harder for them to drop back into walk and it would give a different movement to the normal transitions on a circle or straight line so he would not be thinking walk at that time

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I don't think the idea of playing with the medium canter before asking will help - I've already tried playing with collecting the canter, then letting him out etc before doing the transitions and he still comes straight back to walk and then tries to canter again!

@keepitugly - I've tried that unfortunately! I ask for downwards transition with lots of leg and I get walk for half a stride and then a canter transition. I can keep trying and it will take maybe 10 attempts sometimes to get him to trot!

@bepositive - I've tried popping him on a small circle when asking for transition but he is so talented and balanced that even on a 10m circle he is quite happy to do lots of canter transitions. He is still very green - he had started baby half-pass and changes when I bought him but really he's under developed and needs to muscle up more behind saddle. He is naturally very talented (should go PSG) and finds work easy but he doesn't have all the muscles yet to do things fluently! I'm not sure he is dropping behind my leg in the downward transitions - my leg is firmly on and he definitely feels like he is stepping under himself well in the canter and I have a true contact in my hand. I have tried the counter canter idea - he still drops back into walk and then strikes off into canter almost inmediately when I put my leg on to ask for trot.

@crabbymare - I like that idea! He finds lateral work very easy but I also think he likes to be kept thinking and something like riding from shoulder fore in the canter to shoulder in in trot might well work with him!


I haven't tried him on the lunge recently, but he does know the command 'trot' and that usually works. Also to add he's had his saddle checked recently and he regularly gets his back checked. Also the fact he never does this until after I've had my first canter in a training session suggests it is confusion/naughtiness rather than pain related! I've also tried asking for trot from halt and then I still get canter!!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

make sure the canter aid is clear-outside leg back and on.

and when you want trot keep a loose thigh, for walk a tighter thigh, and if he over collects the canter and wont trot flex him outside a little and rise (awkward as that is) until he drops to trot.

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks PS, I was hoping you'd reply! I definitely try to over-exaggerate my outside leg being back behind the girth though I'm not sure he truly associates this with canter yet! I haven't had him that long yet, but he seems to go solely off the position of my right leg irrespective of which rein I'm on, ie. on right rein the strike off seems to come from my right leg being on the girth strongly rather than my left leg being back. On the left rein the strike off clearly comes from my seat and my right leg going behind the girth! I think he's mostly been ridden off he seat for canter transitions in the past but I've been trying to get him to learn it comes from my outside leg.

For the downwards transitions I definitely try to rise no matter what he does! Will focus on my thighs too incase that's what is confusing him!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

keep your inside leg very neutral so he cant be confused, then if he doesnt go off your left leg back you can always touch him with a whip (touch him to remind him to listen to that leg not hit him to punish him as he does just sound confuddled)

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks PS, when I've tried that though I end up with a canter transition into the wrong lead (and I don't think it's a weakness on that side as when I first got him and was working on teaching him to go off my outside leg he used to always pick up the wrong lead irrespective of the rein but we've now solved the issue on the left rein!)

 

[nato]

I wonder what would happen if you tried trotting poles on a circle? This is total musing, have never needed to solve a problem like this, but what if you put 3-4 trotting poles at one end of the circle, leaving the other end open... trot over the poles a few times and trot the open side of the circle too. Once he is established, ask for a canter on the open end, and ask for downward transition just before the poles. If he walks, push him forward to trot and trot over the poles. Pick up your canter again on the open side, and trot before and over the poles. Again, anytime he walks, PUSH him into trot and BIG reward when he trots

Have clear distinctively different aids for walk vs trot clear in your head, so when you ask for trot on the circle before the poles, he starts to understand after a few goes of being pushed into trot that poles = trot NOT walk, and the aids you're giving him are associated with that.

I'm not sure how that would go but theoretically it makes sense and I would say it's worth a shot as there's a repetition element and a clear point that he will associate with trot. Over time you'd need to remove the poles of course, and make sure they are trot not canter poles. I've tried this for other transition related issues and it's worked well.

 

[Steorra]

I think I'd take canter out of the school completely for a few weeks. I have ridden so many horses who are schooled in the same pattern every time and get so used to it that changing is a problem. In some cases they barely understand the aids and are just repeating a sequence that they know. Sometimes it's been established over years, which is usually down to a rider who just doesn't 'get' schooling, but some horses are just very quick to pick up patterns of behaviour. This second type are an absolute delight to train if you understand what they are about and approach them accordingly.

You will always need to be very aware of training this horse to respond to your aids rather than following a pattern. If you aren't careful, this is a problem that will come up again, the classic example being teaching flying changes. You can't afford to warm up in the same pattern, to ride transitions at the same place in the school, to ask for mediums across the diagonal twice in a row, or to change leads every time you cross the centre line, on this type of horse. This is a fundamental principle you need to get your head around even as you work to fix your current issue.

I don't mean to sound critical - it's wonderful to have a generous and trainable horse who tries to anticipate what you want - and you are clearly a rider who he wants to please. It's good that you are tackling this now. I just think you might need a change of approach to make training this horse the pleasure that it should be rather than a source of frustration.

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks everyone, might try the trotting poles idea although I'm not sure he's ever done them before (he is a proper dressage horse and I'm not sure he's ever been taught anything like that, though it is something I was planning on addressing).

Might try not cantering him in school the next few times (he goes out hacking on gallops so he'll still get to canter!) to see if that helps - I think Steorra is right in that he's highly trainable and very clever but that can be to his disadvantage when he thinks he's already got everything figured out!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Could you ask someone to video your schooling session while your RI is away? So that you can watch it back and maybe able to spot what is happening for yourself.

 

[dressage_diva]

Thanks for video suggestion. Sadly my boy has now cut his leg and is off games for a few days so don't think I'll be riding him much now before my trainer is back off hols!

 

[mybaileysglide]

i had a similar problem with my horse, i practiced rein back a lot one lesson and after that he thought every time i wanted to hault i wanted rein back, so we ended up reversing everywhere haha what i did was ask for hault but drop the contact, so he was haulting on a long rein and it was clear i didnt want him to back up because there was no rein preasure at all.. then we slowly progressed from there, i took a little more contact each time i asked, it took a few schooling sessions but eventualy he got the point i was asking him to hault not reverse. i know its different for you but maybe you could try using the same kind of technique, forget about the nice rein contact you want and ask him with a longer loose rein so he isnt so collected, take it right back to basics again?

 

[oldvic]

I think he is probably slightly dropping behind your aids rather than collecting his canter before the downward transition so he then finds it easy to just drop into walk, to go into trot from canter he needs to work harder and have more engagement so he is taking the easy option and walking. I would try bringing the canter back to a powerful collection with plenty of leg on, then back up through the gears to medium a few times so he stops thinking backwards when you collect him, once he realises dropping behind means going forward again he should stop anticipating walk and be happy to trot when asked.

It is mainly confusion, he thinks he knows what you want and is trying to please, being a hot sensitive type you do need to ensure you keep your legs on, I would not bring him back to walk if he canters instead of trotting as I think that may make him stress, I would go onto a circle and ask clearly for trot or even do some counter canter by changing the rein so you are doing something forward and positive with him rather than backwards and possibly negative, they sometimes need to have things made easy and fun to keep them onside and prevent them tightening up when they think they are doing something wrong, I am assuming he is a younger horse, if older and should know better I would probably treat it differently.

Totally agree with this. Normally when this happens the horse is behind your aids. It can feel fine in that you are not having to kick and the contact feels ok but the fact that you can't make the transition in a forward way shows that the connection from the hind legs to the bit is not good enough and the acceptance of the leg isn't there. Your comments about his reaction to the strike off aids confirm this.
The best way to sort the problem is to put him in a position where it is easier to trot than cheat. If he canters when you ask for trot then go on to quite a small circle with an open inside rein and push him sideways from your inside leg until he trots then take the pressure off which is the reward. Repeat if he goes back into canter without being asked. Making canter less comfortable makes him understand his error and he corrects himself but you may have to push his hind legs quite sideways to start with. This makes you push him to trot rather than bringing him back. Bringing him back enforces him being behind the aids. It's the same when you want to go to trot from canter. If he shortens/slows the canter instead of trotting, ride the canter forward into the contact for a few strides, ask again and open inside rein, small circle and inside leg until he trots.
It is a method that has never failed me and works especially well with sensitive or hot horses as you are putting them in a position to do what you want rather than confusing them by them offering the wrong thing.

 

[oldvic]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I don't think the idea of playing with the medium canter before asking will help - I've already tried playing with collecting the canter, then letting him out etc before doing the transitions and he still comes straight back to walk and then tries to canter again!

@bepositive - I've tried popping him on a small circle when asking for transition but he is so talented and balanced that even on a 10m circle he is quite happy to do lots of canter transitions. He is still very green - he had started baby half-pass and changes when I bought him but really he's under developed and needs to muscle up more behind saddle. He is naturally very talented (should go PSG) and finds work easy but he doesn't have all the muscles yet to do things fluently! I'm not sure he is dropping behind my leg in the downward transitions - my leg is firmly on and he definitely feels like he is stepping under himself well in the canter and I have a true contact in my hand. I have tried the counter canter idea - he still drops back into walk and then strikes off into canter almost inmediately when I put my leg on to ask for trot.

Make sure you ride the canter forward first then ride the hind legs forward to collect rather than bringing him back then letting him out. If you do that you let him drop behind you and lose connection as he goes forward.

Just because your leg is firmly on doesn't mean you are getting the correct reaction from it. If your leg is too tight then he will not listen to it. Give the aid then give him time to react before repeating.

 

[tristar]

agree with be positive, my experience is that you need a bounding canter, activity and bounce, then ride into trot, forwards in balance with the leg on, hands soft just containing the impulsion, you really should be getting a surge forwards in the trot after the transition, almost enough to get medium trot.