Treating a foot abscess.

Quick Q - has anyone got any tried and tested methods of keeping liquid mud/dirt out of hoof holes please? Really don't want to leave him in as he needs to move around but there'd mud everywhere? or do you just choose your days for turnout when its as dry as poss?? thanks for any more advice :-)
 
janei said:
Quick Q - has anyone got any tried and tested methods of keeping liquid mud/dirt out of hoof holes please? Really don't want to leave him in as he needs to move around but there'd mud everywhere? or do you just choose your days for turnout when its as dry as poss?? thanks for any more advice :-)
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I don't bother. Mud is quite a good poultice :) I just squirt in hydrogen peroxide at 3% as hard as I can twice a day.

I have one out in the mud right now with a puncture wound in the sole.
 
I let mine work there way out movement of the horse helps. Once out I wash daily with salty water and leave to heal. I feed devils claw to help with pain / inflamation.

If there is a hole I find cotton wool soaked in tea tree oil packed in the hole works well. A nail is best for packing it in.
 
cptrayes said:
I don't bother. Mud is quite a good poultice :) I just squirt in hydrogen peroxide at 3% as hard as I can twice a day.

I have one out in the mud right now with a puncture wound in the sole.
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cp, please remember you are on a public forum and children will be reading this abject incorrect nonsense and believing it.

Based on this, the best place for locating a hospital operating table is in the middle of a muddy field. Lets not bother with cleanliness, just squirt in a little peroxide when the operation is over, thatll be OK.

An abcess wound is an OPEN WOUND. Filling it with mud, which is packed full of all sorts of bacteria, moisture and is abrasive which will abrade away any attempt for the wound to begin to grow a skin over and heal, is simply madness, and begging for re-infection constantly. To confess you have one with an open puncture in the mud is an indication of indifference to the dangers. If you had a cut on your hand, would you go out and daily immerse it in liquid mud? No of course you wouldnt. So dont advocate horses should be treated as such, for a cut on a horses foot is the same.
There is a good reason why the Victorians believed 'cleanliness is next to godliness'. They knew that keeping wounds clean gave the very best chance of healing, although they didnt know why, they didnt know very much about bacteria and viruses or how they worked. All they knew was that those that kept clean healed more readily than those that didnt, so they believed god approved of cleanliness.
It is my opinion that mud is the worst enemy of the foot, it encourages a lot of destruction both moisture wise and bacterially. Remember, the horn is an organic substance, it is by its very nature digestable, look at the enthusiasm of the dogs to gobble it up when your farrier comes! Not only can dogs digest it, but chickens, rats, snakes, cats and a great many other animals can do so as well.
There are bacteria and organisms that specialise in the destruction of horn. They are plentiful, and are part of the natural cycle of destruction. If they didnt exist, after millions of years of horse evolution, we'd all be swimming in the stuff!

Not only does mud contain horn eating organisms, it also contains others that will take advantage of any breach of the horn layer that protects your horses foot by infecting the sensitive structures that lie beneath them. These can get in to your horses bloodstream and give them very nasty infections. They can also damage the horn producing surfaces, leading to future problems.
An abscess is one way the body has of trying to eject these organisms. It does so by creating pus and pressure, which under the skin can easily burst through it. Within the foot however, there are unique conditions, and if an abscess occurs deep beneath the horn, there can be complications that cause toxic pus to enter essential structures, or even enter the boodstream causing toxic shock.

janei asks a very legitimate question. Liquid mud is a very real problem because it is pervasive, and can get into the tiniest hole causing constant re-infection. Boots are a good idea, the higher the better to prevent liquid mud from getting over the top - but they dont come without problems of their own. Chafing, splitting, or just coming off are some. Then theres the problem that horses sweat in them, raising temperatures and making the area damp, causing wet and warm conditions which of course are the perfect breeding ground for more bugs. Wrapping in cotton wool inside a boot, and changing it every day, works for some, and of course things like peroxide or iodine can then have a more lasting effect while healing progresses. For some horses this is the solution, for others it throws up more problems than it solves.
Ultimately I prefer to try to keep mud away from the area while healing progresses, by keeping the horse on a concrete area where air can circulate and encourage healing. Again, this works for some and not others. Some horses stress in such conditions and will not settle making an awful mess which they then mash into their foot and the open wound! Own worst enemies, I say.

At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice. But remember two things. Remember this is an open wound, so needs to keep clean for proper healing. And remember one day the mud will all be gone, and if you have healed it properly, you will be able to forget all about this and go out and enjoy a day out riding and being with your horse. Maybe he might just thank you then, for protecting him now.
 
What I don't get is the whole bute thing. Surely if a horse is in that much pain then it is more than cruel not to help them with that pain. If a person was in that much pain they would be given strong painkillers because it is inhumane not to treat them.

So are we just expected to stand by and watch them on three legs and wait for the abscess to burst? Not me, I'm afraid. I think that it is downright cruel not to give them something for the pain OR to have the abscess dug out. I can't imagine any other situation where a horse is allowed to be in that much pain with no assistance.
 
carolineb said:
What I don't get is the whole bute thing. Surely if a horse is in that much pain then it is more than cruel not to help them with that pain. If a person was in that much pain they would be given strong painkillers because it is inhumane not to treat them.

So are we just expected to stand by and watch them on three legs and wait for the abscess to burst? Not me, I'm afraid. I think that it is downright cruel not to give them something for the pain OR to have the abscess dug out. I can't imagine any other situation where a horse is allowed to be in that much pain with no assistance.
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No, there is absolutely a point where pain killers have to be administered if the situation is bad enough and continues for long enough.
 
Thanks for the responses, interesting discussion and shows we approach things in differing ways sometimes :-)

Fwiw - he has had 3 days in, poulticed - but he's a buggar for getting them off! I didn't give him any bute as he was on 3 legs on the first day only, after cleaning and poulticing he was then weight bearing the next day, he broke out of his stable yesterday and went galloping around the fields until I caught up with him. So it doesn't appear there is any abscesses. Have been flushing out with iodine, have soaked some cotton wool in tea tree and put in hole (easier to get out) and put 'hoof stuff' in the external crack in hoof and turned him out. I am using the cotton wool for the time being as intend to clean/flush before and after turn out to keep it clean, I have found Hoof Stuff is good but hard to get out to clean, so once I know we are healing will go back to using it in the hole. I will look at boots but he is very opinionated and tried to kill me when I tried some on his fronts! If it gets really wet again will keep him in. It does somewhat feel like a catch 22 situation though and a really rubbish time of year to have hoof cracks/holes!
 
Dear me, Graeme, reading your post you would never believe that the vast majority of abscesses that horses in this country get resolve all by themselves, many without the owner even noticing.

You only have to see the number of 'what is this horizontal hole in my horse's foot' threads that come up from time to time, which are clearly abscess exit holes from abscesses of which the owner was completely unaware.

Do you think the wild native herds are kept out of the mud every time they get an abscess,? Abscesses encapsulate to cut off from the blood supply and prevent septicaemia of the whole horse. Provided no one cuts a bloody hole in the sole here is no reason why it should go septic if kept open to heal from inside.
 
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amandap said:
May I just point out that an abscess is not an open wound until it is opened.
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Wasn't Graeme replying to cptrayes's post when she (he?) said that they had a horse with an open wound out and was using mud as a poultice? In other words he was advocating that it be treated hygienically, not just sloshing about in mud?
 
LCH611 said:
Wasn't Graeme replying to cptrayes's post when she (he?) said that they had a horse with an open wound out and was using mud as a poultice? In other words he was advocating that it be treated hygienically, not just sloshing about in mud?
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The horse has a punctured sole. I did not say it had an open wound, it does not.

And Graeme specifically stated that an abscess is an open wound, to which Amanda made a perfectly sensible reply.
 
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Yes, but that particular statement is incorrect in my view.

Once you have opened an abscess you have to take care until it seals. Introducing infection is a risk if you are opening them.

ps. CPT got in, I was replying to the previous poster LCH611.
 
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This is a very interesting subject. I have usually had the farrier evacuate the abcess, a couple have been too deep for this and burst out at the heel. I have a question.....is there a risk of osteomyelitis developing from a foot abcess, untreated or treated?
 
hayinamanger said:
This is a very interesting subject. I have usually had the farrier evacuate the abcess, a couple have been too deep for this and burst out at the heel. I have a question.....is there a risk of osteomyelitis developing from a foot abcess, untreated or treated?
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This is what we need researched. I don't believe anyone has a scientifically based answer, just gut feelings.

My gut feeling is no, otherwise there would be high rates of it in feral and other largely untended herds like big breeding farms, and there isn't any evidence for that, I don't think.

I get very frustrated by the automatic assumption that abscesses erode the pedal bone. It seems equally likely to me that an edge of the pedal bone dies and causes the abscess in the first place.

Interesting to muse on, an abscess which is not opened by man will usually burst either on the heel/leg join or on the coronet band. Both of these are places where dirt will not be ground in by the horse walking. Nature knows best, maybe?
 
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cptrayes said:
I get very frustrated by the automatic assumption that abscesses erode the pedal bone. It seems equally likely to me that an edge of the pedal bone dies and causes the abscess in the first place.

Interesting to muse on, an abscess which is not opened by man will usually burst either on the heel/leg join or on the coronet band. Both of these are places where dirt will not be ground in by the horse walking. Nature knows best, maybe?
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Yes, excess pressure from thin soles etc. is rarely cited as a possible cause of P3 erosion.

I do have my personal concerns about routinely opening the sole and think your musings are interesting CPT.

I am keeping quiet generally though before I make a "ridiculous" comment. ;)
 
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I tend to treat each abscess as it unfolds. As CP says, very often they burst out and no-one knows they've had one.

I give danilon if the pain is bad. I know there are drawbacks but most treatments are a compromise with contra indications.

Access to willow, which ours have, I've noticed some will self medicate, negating the need for additional drugs.

I like to keep them out of the mud and clean on a hard track.

I poultice, wet till drained, and protect the foot with vet wrap and protection.

I agree that it's an open wound if you open it up. We don't often open them up, movement seems to make them breakout.

We never boxrest.
 
cptrayes said:
Dear me, Graeme, reading your post you would never believe that the vast majority of abscesses that horses in this country get resolve all by themselves, many without the owner even noticing.

You only have to see the number of 'what is this horizontal hole in my horse's foot' threads that come up from time to time, which are clearly abscess exit holes from abscesses of which the owner was completely unaware.

Do you think the wild native herds are kept out of the mud every time they get an abscess,? Abscesses encapsulate to cut off from the blood supply and prevent septicaemia of the whole horse. Provided no one cuts a bloody hole in the sole here is no reason why it should go septic if kept open to heal from inside.
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Properly wild horses (of which there are very few nowadays) frequently die when they get an abscess. If a horse cannot run fast he cannot run from a predator. If you mean native ponies like Dartmoors or New Forests as someone who has been called to deal with some of the foot conditions subsequent to their being sold on after being out on the forest I can assure you there are a fair number that show permanent effects from previous infections of both the horn and the sensitive structures. Unfortunately those that are not sound are either destroyed prior to market or very often sold as meat, so they do not enter the riding world.

Abscesses are open wounds because the horn covering the area has already been breached. If it had not been, there would be no abscess. To exit the foot, whether it is cut out or not, the pus will create yet another open wound, whether or not it exits in the same place it entered is irrelavent to further infection, as any path of entry can conduct liquid mud into the sensitive structures once the pressure has been relieved. I would have thought amanda that you would have seen this is common sense.

Yes many do occur close to the site of entry meaning they can discharge quickly but some do not. Either way, if a foreign body like a thorn or a flint is present it will require veterinary treatment to remove whether or not the abcess is close to the surface, so simply leaving it to take its course is not advisable and to advocate on a public forum that all abcesses will naturally resolve themselves is simply wrong.
 
but plenty of abscesses are not caused by entry of a foreign body so there has been no path of entry, no breach of the horn etc?
 
ester said:
but plenty of abscesses are not caused by entry of a foreign body so there has been no path of entry, no breach of the horn etc?
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At the risk of repeating myself. An abscess is the body's response to a foreign object entering a sensitive structure. If there were no entry, there would be no abscess. Just like if you have toothache, its because an organism has breached the covering of the tooth.

If this were not the case, pus could break out at any time, at any depth, in any part of the body. The reason it doesnt is because there are structures protecting the body from organisms entering. The horn covering the foot has the function of protecting the structures within, as well as bearing the weight.
 
necrotic tissue will also cause an abscess... but will have no entry point.

I'm good on both bugs and the immune response as a microbiologist ;).
 
Graeme Burt farrier said:
Properly wild horses (of which there are very few nowadays) frequently die when they get an abscess.
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I am very interested in this, please could you point me to the paper or research?

Graeme Burt farrier said:
Abscesses are open wounds because the horn covering the area has already been breached. If it had not been, there would be no abscess. To exit the foot, whether it is cut out or not, the pus will create yet another open wound, whether or not it exits in the same place it entered is irrelavent to further infection, as any path of entry can conduct liquid mud into the sensitive structures once the pressure has been relieved. I would have thought amanda that you would have seen this is common sense.
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Being a pedant :o, an abscess is a contained capsule(if you like) of infection/necrotic tissues, that is where much of the pain comes from as the pressure builds. It is not an open wound until it is breached/opened. I am very unconvinced most abscesses are caused by puncture or ingress of foreign matter such as gravel.
I am convinced abscesses can be caused by trauma, poor circulation or compromised hoof structure, as well as puncture, leading to damaged and necrotic tissue. After all tooth and other body abscesses in humans aren't usually caused by puncture are they?

ps. Yes, sequestra is the word I couldn't remember.
 
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ester said:
necrotic tissue will also cause an abscess... but will have no entry point.

I'm good on both bugs and the immune response as a microbiologist ;).
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Of course but necrosis is usually a result of extreme trauma, frostbite or infection coming from elsewhere, is likely to be catastrophic and pretty unlikely to be capable of being out in a field. The resulting pus will still create an exit wound which connects the outside with the sensitive and will probably accelerate the necrosis as a result. Anyway you are splitting hairs, the most common reason I have come across for necrotic tissue within the foot is a previously untreated infection. As a microbiologist would you advocate placing such a wound in mud?
 
Necrosis is actually pretty easy to create with normal bandaging Graeme, I think you are overestimating the level of trauma required to create necrosis.

If horses can fracture their pedal bone as a relatively common thing, then they can create necrosis inside the foot pretty easily too.
 
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Graeme like other posters have repeated over and over again a lot of abceses resolve themselves with out ever presented symptoms - in muddy paddocks with no problems. i would never stick my horse in a a stable (restrict his movement) and have never had any infection issues from abcesses.

I had quite a few as we were resolving my horses pre existing feet issues and would happily wager they were not a result of an entry point.

A farrier once explained to me why he wouldn't cut to find an abcess as being like a deep pimple that hasn't erupted yet, you can go digging but most the time you just make a big hole and don't sort it anyway.

All of mine are 95% sound once it has popped and heals pretty quickly with minimal treatment, and are normally able to be worked with a couple of days.

I find Devils claw helps with any discomfort.
 
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cptrayes said:
Necrosis is actually pretty easy to create with normal bandaging Graeme, I think you are overestimating the level of trauma required to create necrosis.

If horses can fracture their pedal bone as a relatively common thing, then they can create necrosis inside the foot pretty easily too.
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... and if there is any inflammation present(aka laminitis/lgl) internal trauma and circulatory problems are going to lead to a higher risk of abscessing due to internal damage of tissue.

I am not clear of the mechanism where recurrent abscessing is helped or resolved by appropriate mineral supplementation. Perhaps tissues are unhealthy (weakened) due to lack, excess or imbalance of particular minerals?

ps. I wonder how often P3 fracture is accompanied by thin soles?
 
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