Tree v treeless

[Crazyhorselady13]

Hi there,

I have 16.3 fresian mare who has outgrown her saddle now she has matured. I’ve had 3 fitters out and asked them to source me a new saddle for her. They charge me for coming out and measuring up then don’t hear from them. I’m therefore stuck in limbo! I’m thinking of just trying out treeless saddles and wondered whether anyone has used both and which you prefer?
Any insight will you be appreciated

 

[Skib]

The saddle tree rests on cartiledge either side of the spine and keeps the weight off the spine itself which moves.

 

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

There are treeless saddles, which cover the spine as well and can cause pressure on the spine and sore spots on the back due to the pressure exerted by the stirrup bars, and leather tree'd treeless saddles such as smart solutions ones. Smart solutions saddles do have a gullet meaning no pressure on the spine, and have been pressure mapped by piliance which has shown no excess pressure caused by stirrup bars. They don't suit every horse however with some showing quite explosive reactions to them.

Personally I'd never use the treeless saddles that go over the spine for the reasons mentioned and a few others, but have had great success with the Smart ones on 3 of my horses. The only horse of mine currently in work has a smart eventer saddle which she's worn for everything including jumping and am very pleased with. As with everything getting a decent fitter is key, and make sure any claims are backed with science.

ETA two of my horses that have had treeless saddles are friesian crosses, the other is a fit, active not obese traditional cob.

 

[Crazyhorselady13]

Thank you. That’s good to know. I’ve never had such a problem but she seems to be too wide for the saddles that local fitters carry

 

[cauda equina]

I have a Smart saddle
It seemed ok when we first got it but he soon became unhappy and I couldn't get it comfortable with shimming

He's now very happy in a Kent & Masters; we've gone up 3 gullet bars since it was first fitted and it's still good

 

[suestowford]

I've had treeless saddles. Some have been good and some not so good, and I think it really depends on the horse, the rider and the work you're doing, whether it will suit. If you can try before you buy that would be a good thing.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Why don't you get a fitter out that specialises in saddles for the wider horse.

Ah saddles are wide so are chunky monkey and I use Lavinia Mitchell saddles on my wide Arab's.

 

[Jambarissa]

They're not an easy shape to fit unfortunately, several on my yard have had similar issues.

I am a fan of treeless saddles, they're very popular amongst endurance groups where we find normal saddles are more likely to cause issues.

I have a total contact saddle (TCS) now which is a very minimalist treeless designed to not have spine clearance. It looks like a recipe for a bad back but I've ridden in it for years with absolutely no issues (whereas my made to measure, regularly adjusted saddle caused problems) and there's a TCS Endurance page with people riding mind blowing distances in them on Facebook if you'd like to look.

Until I started using the TCS I'd have said a well fitting treed saddle was always the best option but I feel my horses back move underneath me and it changes shape so much, literally curves upwards like sitting on top of a hill sometimes, I can't imagine having a static saddle on there these days.

 

[planete]

There are treeless saddles, which cover the spine as well and can cause pressure on the spine and sore spots on the back due to the pressure exerted by the stirrup bars, and leather tree'd treeless saddles such as smart solutions ones. Smart solutions saddles do have a gullet meaning no pressure on the spine, and have been pressure mapped by piliance which has shown no excess pressure caused by stirrup bars. They don't suit every horse however with some showing quite explosive reactions to them.

Personally I'd never use the treeless saddles that go over the spine for the reasons mentioned and a few others, but have had great success with the Smart ones on 3 of my horses. The only horse of mine currently in work has a smart eventer saddle which she's worn for everything including jumping and am very pleased with. As with everything getting a decent fitter is key, and make sure any claims are backed with science.

ETA two of my horses that have had treeless saddles are friesian crosses, the other is a fit, active not obese traditional cob.

I think it depends on the horse you put the treeless saddle on. I rode my heavy small cob in a Smart saddle for a bit (fitted by a Smart fitter) and he became more and more unhappy with it. He has very wide set shoulder blades and a very wide spine. He has now been ridden in a Torsion with a treeless sheepskin shimmable pad for over a year and is going better and better. I am now of the opinion that he is best suited to a gulletless saddle with the appropriate treeeless pad beneath. It does not agree with common beliefs but I have to believe the pony rather than received wisdom in this case.

 

[Polos Mum]

Sadly the skill in getting a treeless saddle to fit is just as highly in demand as the skill in tree'd saddles (and there are less specialists in treeless around)

They need great care in padding, shims and numnahs to het the treeless saddles to fit correctly.

If your confident to shim up a treeless one to fit - could you do the same with a second hand tree'd one.

Perhaps try one of the online second hand retailers that will send out a number to try and then at least you have a starting point rather than starting with brand new.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

OP, my hacking chums sons horse is a fit, well sprung Friesian about 15.2, they really struggled to get something to work with.
I lent them 2 of my 17" saddles and a 16.5 that have been on up to height Fell ponies to try. The Fiona Cork gp fitted v well, so much so that they wanted to buy it, but that wasnt going to happen.
I'll check tomorrow as to what brand they settled on when saddler came out last weekend. Have also pinged her a message.

ETA, it's a Stubben that they have got.

 

[maya2008]

Freeform (proper ones) and Torsion are the two I trust, as they have been extensively tested in endurance. Both provide spinal clearance when used with the correct pad, and I have used a Torsion for over 2 decades, across a variety of horses/ponies without ever having any issues.

Torsion - sometimes you need to swap the front block out for a Barefoot block if your horse is very wide, but other than that I have never needed to worry about fitting. I use my Torsion saddle on all the youngsters because it allows them to grow and change shape without ever causing any discomfort. Secure and I have never had a horse not like one. Useless for jumping though, and does make a wide horse wider!

Freeform - I loved mine, most comfortable and secure saddle ever with a really good twist so very comfortable. Doesn’t adapt so well to different shapes of horse, although reacts well to a horse it suits changing muscle/weight through the seasons. No adjustment required beyond a treeless pad or the panels you can Velcro on. Better to jump in.

I tend to use my Torsion until they settle shape-wise then get a treed saddle for jumping.

 

[planete]

Tip for Torsion saddles: put a Barefoot hip saver between the base and the seat. You then have a decent twist which can improve rider comfort and position no end.

 

[saddlesore]

Conversely I love my smart native base saddle. Trial and error I guess. They do them on trial?

 

[Marigold4]

I've been researching saddles for my difficult to fit wide, big shouldered horse as he's changed shape again. I came across a couple of saddles made by Ryder that looked interesting. One is a Baroque GP and the other is the Riviera dressage. The baroque says it specially suits Friesians.

Here's the link to the Baroque:

https://www.rydersaddles.com/gp-saddles-gallery/baroque-gp

And the Riviera:

https://www.rydersaddles.com/dressage-saddles-gallery/riveria-dressage-saddle

I've tried several times to get hold of the listed fitter in my area but they don't return messages. Hopefully you are in a different area and might find someone who replies.

In the meantime, I am using my trusty treeless Torsion. He is very comfortable in this and they are cheap to buy secondhand. You have to have the correct pad to go with it though. It's horrible to ride in but at least it means we can do something until we find the next saddle.

 

[alibali]

I have always been a bit wary of treeless saddles, worried about pressure points however I bought a Ghost about 4 years ago as I had a succession of loan ponies who arrived fat and unfit and left much slimmer and fitter having changed shape substantially. Padding their ever changing shape to a rigid tree wasn't a great solution so rather than worry about a rigid tree causing issues I decided to go 'soft'. Every horse I've tried it on has been relaxed and happy in it, it has a gullet (and a narrow twist for me!)

For me it was only ever been meant to be a temporary/medium term fix whilst they charged shape more rapidly than it was practical to keep up with in a treed saddle or used as a convenient saddle to use when occasionally borrowing a horse for me to ride out with my daughter. More recently I decided to use it while breaking in my current horse for the same shape changing reason with a view to getting her a treed saddle once she was in a reasonable amount of work. Said horse has turned out to be highly sensitive and not shy about telling me when any piece of kit is causing her even minor irritation She has never once reacted to the saddle - girth yes, noseband yes, bit yes all have had to be changed but the saddle no(t yet!). She has now been under saddle for 18 months and to be honest I'm too scared to change it to a treed! Going on the if it ain't broke don't fix it principle. My physio was out last month and delighted with her so fingers crossed it stays that way.

3 things I would say about the Ghost (suspect maybe true to greater or lesser extent with all treeless). Firstly I find they provide the rider with less support/stability, you don't have the rigid platform of the tree to support you so I found I had to work harder to support myself and maintain my balance rather than rely on the crutch of the rigid platform. Personally I think I ride better in one. Secondly while I feel very secure in the Ghost when I had it on a fit eventer throwing some shapes it did not feel particularly secure on the horse!!! I was examining my life choices In fairness the saddle actually didn't move much at all however now I always use a breastplate with it for peace of mind. Lastly (and this was a complete revelation) get a skilled fitter to set it up properly for you and your horse if it's going to be your main saddle long term. I had a fitter out last month to see if they could tweak something as whilst the horse was happy I felt a bit tipped forward. Was skeptical how much improvement a few bits of felt could make. Delighted to eat my words as I'm now sitting better than I have in decades, effortlessly!

 

[Smogul]

I've had treeless saddles. Some have been good and some not so good, and I think it really depends on the horse, the rider and the work you're doing, whether it will suit. If you can try before you buy that would be a good thing.

Totally agree. OH's Welsh cob loathed the treeless saddles we tried on him. Patronising fitter said "he will get used to them, it is like being ridden bareback". OH pointed out horse was regularly ridden bareback as he was so difficult to find a saddle for.

 

[FitzyFitz]

I use treeless saddles, although my end goal is always to get a properly fitted treed saddle for each horse.

Be careful where you buy from, there are loads of dodgy knockoffs that will cause you no end of trouble. I have used and trust both Ghost and Freeform saddles, and have used Torsion and Barefoot although I find the twist way too wide for me personally.
Very important to use proper shimmed pads though to keep as much pressure off the spine as possible and spread the weight from your stirrups.

I can sympathise, got a pony so broad in the back I was down to a custom saddle if I wanted a GP, went for a Franco C in the end as they come in various tree shapes and one would fit her, suits me just fine doing endurance and trec although you get funny looks doing showing or dressage!

 

[Jenko109]

I have ridden in a Barefoot Cheyenne for probably a decade.

I have used the same saddle on ponies ranging from 13hh, through to my 15.2hh appaloosa x.

I have never had a horse go badly in one, have never had any negative findings by a physio and have done everything from hours and hours of hacking, through to low level riding club events including some jumping.

I think they are super versatile.

 

[Rowreach]

I have ridden multiple (and I do mean loads) of horses in original Solution saddles since 2007, gulleted and gulletless, and I've never ever had a problem, but I did do the training and obviously I've gained a lot of experience over the years, and they really do have to be fitted correctly, and refitted frequently. But with those caveats, they are brilliant. I would not put a Smart saddle near any of my horses, they are a totally different breed of saddle.

Only yesterday I was showing someone the difference between my rising 9 year old's back, ridden in treeless since I got her at 5, and her loan horse's back, ridden in (ill-fitting) treed saddles all his life, who is showing lordosis, tree point torque, muscle bulges in the wrong place, finds it hard to use his shoulders or engage his hind end - I will never go back to treed saddles, even if fitted by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Fransurrey]

I'm probably an unusual case in that my treeless is a Thorn Pad deluxe. First used on my Exmoor as he aged and constantly changed shape, resulting in me taking a punt on a TP and loving it! I used it on my cob whilst he filled out, atop a Christ Lammefelle treeless pad and he went very well in it. I did buy him a treed saddle (Black Country) two years ago when he was rising 7, but did go back to the Thorn for a while last Autumn, as I waited for a saddler to come and check/reflock the BC. My only issue with the Thorn is that occasionally I do have a bad dyspraxia day and feel very wobbly and there's not a lot to stabilise me - that's actually the only reason I bought a treed saddle. The BC does much better on that score, but any cantle irritates my coccyx and a seat saver makes me feel perched, so I do tend to switch between the two saddles, depending on how my back is!!

 

[sbloom]

I would complain heartily to those fitters, and bodies they represent where relevant. It gives the rest of us a bad name.

Treeless can work really well but they can slip, be as tricky to fit, and some will put most riders in a chair seat. If you have a really good treeless supplier/fitter near you (there is a good one near Edinburgh I know personally) then definitely worth a try but there are specialist wide brands out there, going from general local fitter to general local fitter, if you have an unusual requirement, often leads to disappointment sadly.

@Fransurrey if you're ever in a position to, it's worth looking at other treed saddles. The seat is clearly the wrong shape for you, pelvic stability is all and every rider is different, you may find there is a treeless model that stabilises yours, on a particular horse (the shape of the ribcage changes how we sit) but you may need treed, just a treed that actually really suits you properly.

 

[Fransurrey]

@Fransurrey if you're ever in a position to, it's worth looking at other treed saddles. The seat is clearly the wrong shape for you, pelvic stability is all and every rider is different, you may find there is a treeless model that stabilises yours, on a particular horse (the shape of the ribcage changes how we sit) but you may need treed, just a treed that actually really suits you properly.

Always open to other options, but like many I've been hit by the cost of living increases. I'm also influenced by him being PSSM1 and find that he is much more miss than hit as he ages in terms of what he's capable of on a given day, so am reluctant to pursue different models if I'm going to be riding him less and less. The other saddle that fit him really well was an Ideal, but I felt a bit lost in the seat, so chose the BC. If we were scooting around the hills I'd definitely search harder, but the cost/benefits of that aren't really balancing up at the mo!

 

[Quigleyandme]

My four year old is ridden in a Smart Elite Event. He is hunting fit. We’re lucky in that we have Tori Aylmore close by for checks. They do need to be checked as carefully and frequently as a treed saddle by somebody competent.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm another fan of the Total Contact Saddle (TCS). Nothing but nothing suits us both like this does.