Treeless saddle sizing

Taishi said:
tbh I find more critiques saying "don't buy" who clearly never owned one than people reviewing who actually have. I find the same with stuff such as rugs, I have a rug that has lasted me 3 years now and it was only £25! it wasn't even on offer, it was just a cheap rug, no special brand or anything. Granted its got a tear in it but it is easily repaired and no where near as bad as some rugs I've seen get so easily torn up and cost alot more! This is exactly why I grow tired of people's opinions on this community as all they seem to want to do is push expensive "top of the line" brands in your face rather than help you understand what it is you are looking for to suit your animal's needs. Its like the kids back in school beating up those less fortunate because they don't have "top of the line" brands! Yeah, I used to be one of them and I still am one of those who refuses to buy these over priced so called better brands because in reality they're not! Hell did you know Nike get theirs done by Asians for cheap?! That is a fact! Heck I've even combats that matched my friend's ex's only difference is hers had a Nike tick at the bottom left of the ankle area, she paid £60, I paid £10, you do the math, same quality, mine has lasted more than 5-8 years and still wearable! no rips no tears!
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This isn't a rug you are talking about though. This is a saddle - that you will sit in and will go on your horses back. Any poor fitting saddle will create pressure points - poorly fitting AND badly made / designed saddles will only increase these!

There is a time and a place for heading straight for the bargain basement. Rugs / headcollars can all be picked up at very reasonable prices. A saddle that costs £50 new to buy is never have had the testing and quality of design put into it that is necessary. This isn't me telling you to buy a top of the range saddle - I'm suggesting you buy one from a reputable manufacturer, one that has had testing carried out on it, one that has been made from quality materials and one that has not been filled with whatever rubbish the manufacturer has found in their workshop.

Pressure points from treeless saddles are a far bigger deal than treed saddles because they don't have the tree to disperse the weight you put into the saddle. Going treeless does not mean cheap - most reputable manufacturers of treeless saddles will have recommendations of pads that you should use with your treeless. They have these recommendations for a reason - not because they are raking in the profits, but because that is what works with that saddle.

You do seem rather intent on buying one of these £50 saddles off ebay, so I will wish you the very best of luck.

Do you have the number of a good physiotherapist and vet who will be able to treat your horse?

Good luck :)
 
Under-the-radar said:
This isn't a rug you are talking about though. This is a saddle - that you will sit in and will go on your horses back. Any poor fitting saddle will create pressure points - poorly fitting AND badly made / designed saddles will only increase these!

There is a time and a place for heading straight for the bargain basement. Rugs / headcollars can all be picked up at very reasonable prices. A saddle that costs £50 new to buy is never have had the testing and quality of design put into it that is necessary. This isn't me telling you to buy a top of the range saddle - I'm suggesting you buy one from a reputable manufacturer, one that has had testing carried out on it, one that has been made from quality materials and one that has not been filled with whatever rubbish the manufacturer has found in their workshop.

Pressure points from treeless saddles are a far bigger deal than treed saddles because they don't have the tree to disperse the weight you put into the saddle. Going treeless does not mean cheap - most reputable manufacturers of treeless saddles will have recommendations of pads that you should use with your treeless. They have these recommendations for a reason - not because they are raking in the profits, but because that is what works with that saddle.

You do seem rather intent on buying one of these £50 saddles off ebay, so I will wish you the very best of luck.

Do you have the number of a good physiotherapist and vet who will be able to treat your horse?

Good luck :)
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I mentioned the rugs as an example of what this community is like when it comes to horse products since they have given me similar feedback on those and my rugs have been pretty damn good so far! I also pointed out I do own a Hi Lite which again is a cheep and cheerful saddle, I paid £50 for mine! :O shocking! Seems fine to me >_> So like I said my point is people on here want to push top brands in your face rather than giving advice on finding what works for your horse such as item fitting vs budget! People on here seem to think we're all made of money and can just throw it away at any time and once again I'm deeply regretting bothering to ask when really all I wanted to know is about the god damn fitting of a treeless saddle! And YES I'll be *****ing rude about it when people aren't being all that helpful and just want to get on a high horse, pun intended. If you don't want to help or can't appreciate what I'm saying and don't want to be told when you're clearly in the wrong then refrain from commenting at all, saves me the hassle of reading it and sieving through the thread I posted for those who actually do understand and do want to help.
 
Oh and one more thing; you do know the manufacturer of Freemax is a former from Freeform right? Just because they are cheaper doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. Probably left because they didn't agree on ripping people off!
 
I have to say I do tend to take note of some of the people on here who have had the opportunity to take some of these saddles apart/inspect their symmetry etc. Freeform and freemax both seem to have a good rep though and as you say the latter was set up by someone involved in the former.
 
Taishi said:
Seems fine to me >_>
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Jolly good! I cant believe it is, as I can imagine a single horse they would fit. Never mind a wide, flat native type.

I really dont get why you think people on here push expensive brands? I've been raving about my new cheapy Shires rug on here in the last few days.

But £49.99 saddles knocked up in India are never ever going to be recommended by anyone with any sense! I'm also pretty sure you did get some advice about budget saddles and possible solutions
 
Taishi said:
Oh and one more thing; you do know the manufacturer of Freemax is a former from Freeform right? Just because they are cheaper doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. Probably left because they didn't agree on ripping people off!
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Freemax's have a pretty good rep although they aren't apparently up to hard use or jumping lots etc. I've seen a few on eBay recently for under £100.

Are you wanting a treeless because you want a treeless? or because she's proving hard to fit? I recently gave up with treeless on one of my natives, I had both a Torsion and a Barefoot (both secondhand, both about £250). The Barefoot was a size 2 but huge, think pony and I could have done with a size 1 (I am a 12-14) but I was never happy with the stability, overall length (even though there's no hard points in the length to worry about, the actual skirt can rub the hair just before the loins if saddle is on the long side) and pommel insert/removal or. Both Torsion and Barefoot were size twos but varied in back length but about 5cms and the Barefoot seat area was much bigger.

I have just spent £45 on a well known, in very good condition, treed synthetic that fits said pony very well. Other horse has a Wow so both ends of the scale!


I do get what you mean about perception of budgets-I was looking for a lorry recently and daren't ask on here because people would automatically say they wouldn't spend less that £20K on one and that wasn't happening! But if you post something and people take the time to answer well, you don't have to take it on board or be snippy.

I wouldnt go for a Ysrd saddle, they look utter pish. The beauty of eBay is that everything you want will come up again-look out for auctions that end at odd times, those saddles listed incorrectly or put in cheeky offers. Whatever treeless you get, a good pad is essential, again from £50 secondhand.
 
ester said:
I have to say I do tend to take note of some of the people on here who have had the opportunity to take some of these saddles apart/inspect their symmetry etc. Freeform and freemax both seem to have a good rep though and as you say the latter was set up by someone involved in the former.
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Yeah well unfortunately I don't think any of those people have posted in this thread else they'd give me some actual feedback on them. But yes, it has been stated on a few sites regarding Freemax that its creator is a former FreeForm manufacturer and had left believing he could take his design and make it more affordable. Granted FreeForm will have changed and perhaps even improved since then but this still doesn't mean that Freemax is bad, sadly I've yet to find these reviews though regarding his work, probably no one buys them in order to review cus people likes these put them off doing so.

FrankieCob said:
Jolly good! I cant believe it is, as I can imagine a single horse they would fit. Never mind a wide, flat native type.

I really dont get why you think people on here push expensive brands? I've been raving about my new cheapy Shires rug on here in the last few days.

But £49.99 saddles knocked up in India are never ever going to be recommended by anyone with any sense! I'm also pretty sure you did get some advice about budget saddles and possible solutions
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fyi the Hi Lite is perfect for a flat back as it self adjusts to fit around the body of the horse and mainly, assumably, the withers though my fitter did say if she was not a flat back/low withered she would not recommend as the Hi Lite has been known to pinch around the withers and cause more harm that way. So yeah, Hi Lite may not be good for some horses but doesn't mean that it won't be ok for all horses and frankly if you think its not suitable for flat backs it shows how much you really know. As for being made in India; alot of things are made in India! Do you get picky about your own clothes because its made in foreign countries?! if so god help you find what fits and not overly priced! As I pointed out even Nike use countries such as India to produce their clothing and they're well overpriced! Hell, alot of our stuff even comes from China and if you look on ebay alot of their products are cheap, I suppose I shouldn't buy from them too huh?! I'm also surprised that no one on here has criticise you over Shires as most seem to consider them a cheap and crappy company, hell they made they Hi Lite did they not?! :-P Seriously, educate yourself before ranting about stuff like this please.. And once again I ask you guys NOT to comment if you can't give me anything helpful to read in regards to my original request, thanks!
 
MotherOfChickens said:
Freemax's have a pretty good rep although they aren't apparently up to hard use or jumping lots etc. I've seen a few on eBay recently for under £100.

Are you wanting a treeless because you want a treeless? or because she's proving hard to fit? I recently gave up with treeless on one of my natives, I had both a Torsion and a Barefoot (both secondhand, both about £250). The Barefoot was a size 2 but huge, think pony and I could have done with a size 1 (I am a 12-14) but I was never happy with the stability, overall length (even though there's no hard points in the length to worry about, the actual skirt can rub the hair just before the loins if saddle is on the long side) and pommel insert/removal or. Both Torsion and Barefoot were size twos but varied in back length but about 5cms and the Barefoot seat area was much bigger.

I have just spent £45 on a well known, in very good condition, treed synthetic that fits said pony very well. Other horse has a Wow so both ends of the scale!


I do get what you mean about perception of budgets-I was looking for a lorry recently and daren't ask on here because people would automatically say they wouldn't spend less that £20K on one and that wasn't happening! But if you post something and people take the time to answer well, you don't have to take it on board or be snippy.

I wouldnt go for a Ysrd saddle, they look utter pish. The beauty of eBay is that everything you want will come up again-look out for auctions that end at odd times, those saddles listed incorrectly or put in cheeky offers. Whatever treeless you get, a good pad is essential, again from £50 secondhand.
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Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from. I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today! I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony? Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.
 
Your original post was asking how to measure for a treeless - but as I have said a couple of times, it depends on what make. Every make is measured differently. Still would suggest looking at trialling a few and actually finding out what will work for you and your horse.

FWIW I have tried Torsion, Barefoot, Freemax, Copperbeach saddles until I gave a HM Flexee a go. So yes - I have been there and tried them :)
 
Taishi said:
Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from. I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today! I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony? Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.
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there are a lot of freemax rip offs just as there are Barefoot and torsion rip offs. When you see a Barefoot/Torsion in the flesh you can see the quality of them-the leather, stitching etc. with cheapo foreign saddles, many will not have been flocked well or flocked with something you'd like a saddle to be flocked with! But tbh, its not just cheap foreign saddles, there are horror stories with others as well. Barefoots and Torsions hold their SH value, I had no problems selling them for the same money.

Treeless are a nice idea, they will not suit every rider or every horse. An unsuitable treeless will be every bit as bad as an unsuitable treed saddle.

I bought a thorowgood endurance saddle for my pony. I already had an older one which was just slightly too narrow so I waited until I found one that measured slightly wider.


I've just looked on amazon and if you mean the £60 Freemaxs, I am sure they aren't the real deal-I was talking about the Freemax Acavallo saddles, which are more expensive. a real Freemax wil have a badge on the back of the cantle.
 
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OP, at no point in your original thread before I was so 'unhelpful' with my suggestion about investigating the Solution brand did you mention a budget constraint of seemingly 50 quid. If you can find a bargain treeless saddle that fits your pony well and suits you (the whole point of treeless) then great! Your attitude stinks though, you asked a question and myself and others (with our money trees) only tried to be helpful. Good luck to you and to your pony.
 
Taishi said:
Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from. I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today! I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony? Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.
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If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?
 
The freemax on amazon would be no better than buying the £50 ebay one... . and certainly not sold my anyone involved in freeform!
 
Under-the-radar said:
Your original post was asking how to measure for a treeless - but as I have said a couple of times, it depends on what make. Every make is measured differently. Still would suggest looking at trialling a few and actually finding out what will work for you and your horse.

FWIW I have tried Torsion, Barefoot, Freemax, Copperbeach saddles until I gave a HM Flexee a go. So yes - I have been there and tried them :)
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Well then can you list their sizes minimal to highest? preferbly Freemax as I'm struggling to find the "real deal" with those things, if you have a link to the real thing I'd appreciate it.

ihatework said:
If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?
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Because I am not fully confident to do so and feel a treeless is a step in that direction over having a bareback pad and I won't be buying one of those with stirrups as it kind of defeats the purpose so treeless is the next best thing not to mention there are many benefits over treed saddles that I agree on. As stated, the things most people use are just medieval torture devices for horses, we've researched and created new things such as treeless saddles and bitless bridles and imo we should use them! why keep using things that cause more harm than good?!
 
Actually, many of the cheap treeless saddles create a pressure point over the back, as they are very flexible and the strap that the stirrups attach to presses down. They also don't spread the weight of the rider as there is no tree to do so.

I had a Freemax - a proper one, not a cheap copy - and found that it was very unstable on my wide, low withered horse. A decent pad to go under a treeless, which is an absolute "must" to help avoid the stirrup strap problem mentioned above, is also very expensive - I couldn't find a new one for less than £100, and very few second hand ones were available.
 
Taishi said:
Well then can you list their sizes minimal to highest? preferbly Freemax as I'm struggling to find the "real deal" with those things, if you have a link to the real thing I'd appreciate it.
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I've been riding in my Flexee for 2 years now, so I honestly can't remember. If you have a look on the manufacturer's websites, you will be able to find sizing information.

I can tell you what I found with each of the saddles I tried:

Copperbeach saddle - lower end of the budget. I am size 8-10 and tall and I found this saddle comfortable. I did use this on several different horses and the one major drawback was the block at the back of the seat - I found this rubbed my coccyx and if on a long ride I would get very sore (I do have issues with my coccyx anyway, so just highlighted the issue). Even on my very sensitive mare, I did not have any issues with pressure related pain - BUT I always used a fairly high quality numnah and sheepskin half pad with gel inserts under the saddle. The gel inserts did lie fairly well in line with where the stirrups were, so may have helped. Zero knee blocks, but I didn't find this a problem (I mainly do walk /trot hacking and dressage). If you wanted to jump, it wouldn't really be suitable I think

Torsion - higher budget version of Copperbeach. Seat was slightly better than on Copperbeach - but I didn't spend as much time in the Torsion I must admit. You certainly would need good quality pads under the Torsion as well IMO.

Freemax - This was a proper freemax that I picked up second hand - this did NOT suit me or my horse at all. The edge of the saddle (all the way round it) dug into my horse and made sore points very quickly. The seat actually seemed to have less twist in it that the Copperbeach / Torsion style saddles, which meant that as soon as we went down a hill, I would just slide down to the front of the saddle. I tried this saddle with various pads to try and alleviate pressure on my horse, but nothing helped. I found the saddle very uncomfy for me too - but equally my sister had ridden in one for quite some time, and really seemed to like it for her. Just IMO, I wouldn't bother with one of these again - but mainly because I like more support in the seat.

Barefoot - I had a Barefoot London dressage saddle. Incredibly comfy - I had a size 1 I think. Absolutely perfect for hacking and the few endurance training rides we did. Proper pads absolutely needed with this saddle, although the newer models to have some slight padding to help alleviate spinal pressure. I really did enjoy this saddle a lot, and I was very tempted to get another to put on my youngster. The model I had did have knee blocks, but I have very pathetic legs, and the knee blocks really were not in any place of any use. The main reason I moved on from this saddle was that I was starting to focus more on dressage, and I was finding that I needed more support from my saddle than the Barefoot could give me.

HM Flexee - I have been using my Flexee for 2 years now and can honestly say that my position has transformed since using this saddle. It is still not a miracle cure, and it will NOT fit every horse, but I have got it fitting my very strangely shaped mare. It is also the first saddle that I have actually been comfortable in. The Flexee's are sized the same as treed saddles, and also have the appearance of treed saddles. The internal design does depend on how old the saddle is - the newest versions have interchangeable gullets to set the width (like the Wintec gullets), older versions have no gullet, and the oldest ones have a fixed width gullet. The tree in the saddle is leather though, so there is movement in the saddle.


Out of these saddles, the one I have been most impressed with is the Flexee - it is what I have just got my youngster.

These are just my opinions from the saddles I have tried - again very must stress that it is individual and you will need to try these things yourself to find out what works for you. You may well like the look of the Freemax saddles, but it doesn't mean that you will be able to fit it to your horse, or you will be comfy in it.

Treeless does not mean that every saddle will fit every horse! :)
 
Under-the-radar said:
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See now this is feedback instead of seemingly bias comments where it feels like certain brands are just being shoved in my face just because people don't agree with what I've seen which to me is more affordable. I mean its not that I don't understand nor am I arrogant in regards to cheaper knock offs of official brands but again its not like some cheaper replicas are all that bad. I do understand now that there is an official Freemax that I was clearly unaware of vs the unofficial that some people would clearly say are far worse, which is a real shame, so if its any consolation thanks for that insight guys. However, I posted to request info on sizing, you could have at least linked me to size charts or recommended brands that do have sizes that will fit my pony rather than getting on your high horses bad mouthing about a specific saddle without giving any good reason why other than bias arrogance and seemingly racist comments referring to "Do not touch Indian products" which most of you pretty much say. I actually have a bitless bridle from India and my only real problem with it was that its too big, the nose band is too low and I suspect its because I probably needed a smaller size so maybe that was my error though I'm not entirely sure and I do have a smaller one coming in but from a different person as I've opted for a changeable rope version so we'll see how that goes. Anyway, my point is that most of you just wanted to argue about what I was looking at rather than informing me what will fit my pony and that's what bothered me the most.

I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.
 
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ihatework said:
If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?
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Quite, and this is what I did when I got back into horse ownership as an impecunious adult, and was saving up for a saddle that fitted my section D.
 
Taishi said:
See now this is feedback instead of seemingly bias comments where it feels like certain brands are just being shoved in my face just because people don't agree with what I've seen which to me is more affordable. I mean its not that I don't understand nor am I arrogant in regards to cheaper knock offs of official brands but again its not like some cheaper replicas are all that bad. I do understand now that there is an official Freemax that I was clearly unaware of vs the unofficial that some people would clearly say are far worse, which is a real shame, so if its any consolation thanks for that insight guys. However, I posted to request info on sizing, you could have at least linked me to size charts or recommended brands that do have sizes that will fit my pony rather than getting on your high horses bad mouthing about a specific saddle without giving any good reason why other than bias arrogance and seemingly racist comments referring to "Do not touch Indian products" which most of you pretty much say. I actually have a bitless bridle from India and my only real problem with it was that its too big, the nose band is too low and I suspect its because I probably needed a smaller size so maybe that was my error though I'm not entirely sure and I do have a smaller one coming in but from a different person as I've opted for a changeable rope version so we'll see how that goes. Anyway, my point is that most of you just wanted to argue about what I was looking at rather than informing me what will fit my pony and that's what bothered me the most.

I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.
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Actually I haven't once said "Don't touch Indian products" - I have suggested that buying a saddle that is £50 as new is not advisable. I have told you that I have been using my Flexee saddle for 2 years and cannot remember the sizing of the saddles I had - given that it was OVER TWO YEARS AGO.

I have suggested several times now that you visit some of the manufacturers websites for information on sizing - as every manufacturer has different sizing on their saddles. Why on earth should I do your leg work for you and spend the time to go and give you a list of links - you obviously have internet access, so go and use Google to search. www.google.com if you can't be bothered to search for that.

You are going to have to put some time into this yourself and do some research - I can't do this for you - you need to have the information. I already have the information I needed for me and my horse - I have already done the leg work to find this out.
 
Taishi said:
I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.
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A cub saddle is designed for kiddies. I am 8-10 and have ridden in a cub saddle in the past. You won't have knee rolls - I also am not sure if there is an upper weight limit for using the cub saddle. Something else you can do some research into maybe.

If you google cub saddle (see link in my post above to google) I am sure you will find some images and also reviews on them.
 
Surely the whole point of mentioning brand names is that google will find you any size charts of those you are interested in?

To suggest that saying buying a £50 saddle which happens to be mass produced in India is racist is quite :eek3:. People have given reasons for not buying one not based on the fact that everyone else is ripping you off, more on the wellbeing of you and your horse.
 
Ya know what? I'm done here. If an admin reads this please just close this thread, I don't want any more responses from anyone. Those who have given me useful comments I thank you but I've had enough of those who are just full of themselves and too eager to argue and talk down to others and meanwhile want to call me the rude one. Lesson learned I will not seek any further advice and guidance from the people in these forums as this wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with this kind of crap. Some of you ought to hang your heads in shame, its people like that who really do let this community down for others. Thanks, I'm out.
 
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I thought all schools were now back in session, clearly the odd sulky teen still on the rampage!

What was that all about, told that sizing is not the same, told that it is your butt not the horses size that matters, told not to buy cheap Indian trash, told where to go to get good info...she slams door and scurries off! Weird ...
 
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