Treeless saddle sliding forwards

[Caol Ila]

Gah! I've been having problems with Hermosa's saddle sliding forwards onto her withers. It's a TreeFree Tor (originally bought for my other horse). She is a 5-year old PRE who has been in ridden work for about 11 months.

I'm using it with a Christ Lamfelle endurance pad so I can shim as needed. I keep playing with the shims but nothing fixes the problem. I bought a TSF girth (https://www.shadowhorse.co.uk/products/tsf-dressage-shoulder-relief-girth), which helped a little but it still moves a bit.

She has a forward girth groove and is developing a big shoulder as she grows up.

I'm trying to hold off buying a new saddle because (a) I'm reluctant to spend £££££££££ on a saddle for a young horse who is constantly changing. Plus, getting traditional saddle fitters to see you in a timely way is difficult here, and I've had pretty negative experiences with that back when I rode in a treed saddle. And (b) I don't know what kind of saddle I want to commit to. English, Western, Iberian? Who knows. I'm trying to stick with treeless/leather tree for now because it's my experience that when you find one that works for you and your horse, it's a lot more adaptable to horse changes than the treed saddles.

Any suggestions? Different girths to try? Different padding solutions?

I think I took this after a ride. You can see where it's shoogled forwards.

 

[Maddie Moo]

Could you use a crupper?

 

[follysienna]

I use a string girth with my thorn pad. It's not perfect if pony puts in a few spooks but has generally stopped it going up his neck.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I rode treeless for around ten years, in a Barefoot Cheyenne. As the horse changes shape over the seasons, the saddle will move to accommodate the rider in a central position. Because there is no tree, there is nothing to rub, as long as you keep using your saddle pads. Possibly a thick foam riser pad to lift the wither area and shim the dip behind the shoulder might help.
Overall, it is your position that determines where the pressure points are likely to be, so if the movement is adjusting your position, you may be ok. Do you feel that the saddle is insecure, and sliding too far forward? Wonder if changing the tree profile would help?

 

[Caol Ila]

I rode treeless for around ten years, in a Barefoot Cheyenne. As the horse changes shape over the seasons, the saddle will move to accommodate the rider in a central position. Because there is no tree, there is nothing to rub, as long as you keep using your saddle pads. Possibly a thick foam riser pad to lift the wither area and shim the dip behind the shoulder might help.
Overall, it is your position that determines where the pressure points are likely to be, so if the movement is adjusting your position, you may be ok. Do you feel that the saddle is insecure, and sliding too far forward? Wonder if changing the tree profile would help?

It has plastic head irons which come in three sizes. I own all three (my Highland is ridden in a Treefree Exmoor). She's currently in the middle one. The wide one is really wide (too wide for even my Highland).

Is that what you mean by changing tree profile?

I use a string girth with my thorn pad. It's not perfect if pony puts in a few spooks but has generally stopped it going up his neck.

One of these?

Stubben Trevira Cord Girth

Super soft nylon cord girth from Stubben, with roller buckles

www.bettersaddles.co.uk

 

[maya2008]

I'm guessing the issue is then that you have nowhere to sit, as it's going so far forwards that the seat is ending up on her wither?

 

[Highmileagecob]

Is that what you mean by changing tree profile?

Yes, the bit that acts as the 'tree.' Have you tried Fin's saddle on her to see if the different brand makes any difference?

 

[Caol Ila]

The seat isn't on the wither.

I guess I am mainly worried that the one rigid part of the saddle, the plastic pommel thing, finds it's way onto her shoulders.

This one shows where I sit on her pretty well.

 

[Caol Ila]

Is that what you mean by changing tree profile?

Yes, the bit that acts as the 'tree.' Have you tried Fin's saddle on her to see if the different brand makes any difference?

Fin's is the same brand, different model, and it was a worse fit when I first bought it as an eBay special. But that was a while ago. That's a good shout. She has changed a lot so the fit may be different than how it was last winter.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Looks to be in a reasonable position to me - treeless saddles do sit a little further forward than traditionals, but as long as your under padding is good to prevent pressure points, you should be ok. Check the hair on her back when you untack - if it is smooth and lying in the same direction, that shows the saddle is not moving. However, if is disturbed, and looks as though you have scrubbed her, then you have an indication that some adjustment is needed. Hope you sort it out - she looks lovely!

 

[Caol Ila]

This forum can be so good sometimes.

I don't think the hair is scrubbed when I untack, but will have a closer look today.

 

[planete]

The saddler who makes these saddles would probably be able to give you some advice if you still have problems. I had the opposite problem of the Torsion sliding backwards because of the pony's huge shoulders. Shimming the back of the saddle sorted it out.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would try extra shimming at the front, if you are unhappy when you have checked the hair.

 

[Gloi]

Could you use a crupper?

I've often used one on my round ponies, especially riding in the hills. Very useful as long as you aren't jumping. I used one when I had a Torsion.

 

[Nudibranch]

My Flexee slides forward when it's too narrow so I usually end up taking out the gullet plate and shimming instead. All depends on her shape. Also, I have to say the Professionals Choice girths are amazing for stability.

 

[saddlesore]

It looks like it’s sitting well to me. There are obviously no tree points to restrict shoulder movement so there is greater flexibility (pardon the pun) in terms of positioning. Do you feel unbalanced?

 

[Widgeon]

No advice on the saddle but she's a lovely horse and you're looking great together! I like those photos

 

[Caol Ila]

I rode her in it yesterday, and the hair was flat when I took it off.

I also put Fin's saddle on her, and she walked in circles around the stable. Not a fan of that one. When it's on Fin, it sits behind his shoulder, but he's got a very different conformation.

It does seem to be designed to sit further forward than a treed saddle. When I saddled her up, I put the front flap behind her shoulder, where I'd place a treed saddle, and the girth was in the middle of her belly, not far from where a Western saddle flank cinch would be.

I poke my horses in the back most days, and they never give any indication of soreness. So I suppose it's fine and just doesn't sit like a standard treed dressage saddle.

 

[maya2008]

If you still have space to sit behind the wither, I wouldn't worry. The saddles with that type of set-up sometimes do sit with the plastic 'pommel' over the wither and on top of the shoulders. So long as the horse is happy with it, I wouldn't worry. I just slide my hand underneath when I’m on and it’s settled into place, and check there is no pressure from the pommel on the horse.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Agree. As long as you are sitting with your weight in the correct area, and the points of the pommel/tree are not causing pressure, then you should be fine. Even after all these years of treeless saddle availability, very little has been offered up in the way of fitting advice. They seem to be viewed with the same suspicion as barefoot horses.

 

[Caol Ila]

I can fit my hand between the pommel and her shoulder. At times when I haven't been able to do that, I monkey around with the padding and changing the pommel size.

It would be so bloody useful if there was more information about fitting treeless saddles and actual humans trained to do it. The saddle fitters who come to our yard either actively dislike them or have no opinion whatsoever and don't care enough to learn anything about that system.

There's a lady in Edinburgh who kind of broke into that market. But she only works with a few brands. And not Treefree/Barefoot/Torsion style ones. I had her out for Fin when I first got him, and none of the brands she had suited him. Still, she was lovely, very honest that most of her saddles wouldn't work for him, and gave me a week's trial of a Ghost saddle. If I was to buy Hermosa a western saddle, she would be my first port of call. Doesn't help me with the saddles I got, though!

I do wonder whether the Barefoot pommel inserts would fit my saddle and give me more options. Treefree only make them in three sizes, but Barefoot have a lot more, plus a soft one. They look like more or less the same thing, though it's impossible to ascertain the exact size and shape via pictures on the internet.

 

[teddy_]

I second a Stübben cord girth.

I have used these girths with conventional saddles and Thorn pads on Arabs / fat natives where slippage can be a common issue and they definitely help to add some stability.

 

[sbloom]

There's a lady in Edinburgh who kind of broke into that market. But she only works with a few brands.

https://www.facebook.com/RidinginBalanceScotland, she is great and my host when I come up to the central belt for overnighters.

The saddle fitters who come to our yard either actively dislike them or have no opinion whatsoever and don't care enough to learn anything about that system.

Harsh. It's not about not caring, it's that they're different and have historically not been actively fitted, in the most part. And no-one to train anyone either, whether professional trainers (not enough demand) or fellow fitters (give your knowledge to competitors). I don't even fit anything other than my two brands, we are allowed to stick to what we're good at, and passionately believe in.

 

[Art Nouveau]

Have you looked at Heather Moffets range? I think she favours riding PREs so I would assume her saddle designs are well suited to that shape, and she does have fitters and has previously offered fitting advice by email as well I think. Granted that only helps if you feel like getting a new saddle! But they hold their value well as second hand saddles so you could get one second hand and sell it on for the same price if it doesn't work out.

 

[Caol Ila]

https://www.facebook.com/RidinginBalanceScotland, she is great and my host when I come up to the central belt for overnighters.


Harsh. It's not about not caring, it's that they're different and have historically not been actively fitted, in the most part. And no-one to train anyone either, whether professional trainers (not enough demand) or fellow fitters (give your knowledge to competitors). I don't even fit anything other than my two brands, we are allowed to stick to what we're good at, and passionately believe in.

I wasn’t referring to saddle fitters in general, just the two who do most coverage of this area, one whom told me they dislike treeless and the other said they weren’t that interested in them (with the latter, I needed an old one from the US repaired and wasn’t going to send it to Pennsylvania).