Treeless saddles and the horse's back

[sbloom]

Ok stupid question (2) what is meant by the "twist" of a saddle?

The twist is basically a description of the width of the seat. I like a wide twist but lots of people prefer a narrow twist. I think it comes down to personal preference and pelvis width.

Not quite. There are three critical "widths" for the rider -

Twist - under the crotch and, with an English wooden tree, the point where the rails change direction, they come inwards from the pommel, and then "twist" back out again under the rider's pelvis, ideally the pubic arch.

Seat - under the seatbones, the widest part of the overall seat in many but not all cases. If you think about it, for a saddle to really fit a rider, the widest part must be the right distance from the narrowest part to fit a particular pelvis...the triangle of pubic arch to seatbones.

Waist - the rider's inner thigh, an area that needs adequate support (many saddles can be too narrow here and this is a common cause for gripping with the knee) but for most riders wants to not be too bulky. With a treed saddle an independent panel, not sewn into a sweat flap or mono flap, and a cut away sweat flap if there is one, will allow the thigh to drop better.

All three have an effect on the rider's ability to sit in neutral in comfort, and all three can contribute to pushing the pelvis back, or tipping it, or pushing the leg forwards.

 

[Caol Ila]

I've tried all sorts of treeless saddles over the years, the good, the bad, and the ugly, because treed saddles have always left me frustrated. Every time I go back to them, I remember why I stopped using them in the first place.

Currently both horses are in Ghost saddles. They work perfectly on Fin. Hermosa is faffy, but I think would be more of a nightmare with a treed saddle.

 

[Widgeon]

Currently both horses are in Ghost saddles. They work perfectly on Fin. Hermosa is faffy, but I think would be more of a nightmare with a treed saddle.

I really like my Ghost as well. It's for a horse who's always been fiddly to fit and a rider (me) who's always had problems with conventional treed English saddles.

But I think that's a good illustration of the fact that not all treeless saddles are the same - something with a carbon fibre base and panels etc to achieve spine clearance (I think Wow, Solution, Ansur have a somewhat similar principle?) is a completely different thing to the very old fashioned treeless "saddles" which are basically just a fancied up thick pad. I always read threads on here related to treeless saddles and it appears that the people who are happiest with them have had them quite carefully fitted to a specific horse, whether they've done that themselves or hired in a fitter. And in that sense they're no different to a treed saddle.

The idea some people promote that "treeless saddles fit any horse" does the good ones a complete disservice (IMO)! It suggests you can just plonk one on and off you go, and anyone who's ever had a hard to fit horse will be skeptical of that.

 

[Skib]

or pushing the leg forwards.

I rode bareback in some lessons. Usually on the lunge If you ride with no saddle or stirrups, ones legs do hang forward. They are not pushed forward. They hang naturally into the hollow behind the shoulder of the horse. This is the way native Americans rode. It is described in the book Boy, Horse, Follow Closely. by Gawani Pony Boy (Author).

Although I assume that both native American riders and their horses were fit and slim, (I have pics oftheir bareback ridihg from a trip to Montana) my very slim RI told me she did not ride her TB bareback. She said I was fine to have bareback lessons as I had a l plump bottom and the lesson mare was well covered. But the feel and the way one sits on the horse is very different from the BHS norm.

I would love to ride bareback again but the old mare died and her replacement was too wide for me to feel safe riding bareback. Saddles were invented partly to carry the stirrups and give stability and the same goes for the treed saddle from which they hung

 

[Nancykitt]

We also have TCS saddles for the kids (and I now due to pony’s preference - I’m 9 stone) to hack/school. These rely entirely on what you put UNDER them to distribute the pressure. That makes them extremely customisable but does place the burden of knowledge on the owner. With a fair amount of experimentation and reading about the pressure distribution of various materials, we have setups that work well, give spinal clearance and happy ponies. I find these saddles particularly good for starting youngsters and for those who come to us with prior bad experiences with treed saddles. They look different. They feel different. They allow that bad association to be broken and trust to be built. We are very careful though and check each ride just as we would with any saddle, swapping out pads as weight changes through the year. All of ours eventually swap happily between treeless and treed, knowing that their treed saddle is for jumping so = fun exciting times!

We had lovely saddles (with Flair) made for our horses years ago and they served us very well for years of hacking and hunting - BUT they needed adjusting, usually at least twice a year, especially as Snoopy and AJ changed shape so much. When we moved to the Highlands we quickly got to a stage where the saddles didn't fit. So we stopped riding and looked into the cost of getting out a fitter. The nearest fitter (with enough experience of Flair) was many hours away and the enormous cost meant that it was simply not viable. So we gave the TCS a go and the horses seemed to like it from the get-go - although it took me some time to get used to the lack of knee rolls!
Absolutely right that the effectiveness of the TCS depends very much on what is under it and there are endless discussions on 'set up', which depends to a great extent on the individual horse.
I know that there are people who jump/hunt etc in the TCS and I've got to say that I'd probably feel very dubious about this.
But riding these days is mainly plodding around the coast and the TCS is by far the best option for us.

 

[southerncomfort]

I have a very hard to fit Fell pony. I tried so many treed saddles, particularly ones aimed at natives, on him and he was unhappy in all of them.

I was a treeless sceptic, but turned to a Ghost saddle in desperation, mostly because i know of a few people who use them on their Fells now.

He is so much happier in his Ghost saddle. He moves so freely in it. We've had a few 'exciting ' moments and I've always felt extremely secure.

 

[Caol Ila]

For Hermosa’s, I attached Freeform panels from another treeless experiment I tried, because she doesn’t like the Ghost ones. Getting it perfect remains a work in progress but at least we can make minor adjustments ourselves. It’s not been easy but trying a million other different types of saddles isn’t practical.

She started with a TreeFree one, but then became unhappy with that. Then had her in a leather tree one, which was fine until the leather tree (which had no harder structure supporting it) softened with use and was kind of collapsing on her shoulders. Not ideal. Then we bashed the Ghost into working. She is a very fussy horse.

 

[Skib]

trying a million other different types of saddles isn’t practical.

May be not helpful to this particular problem but it is worth remembering that one can use a thick or folded blanket under the saddl, as Western riders do. A Cowboy rider owned his own saddle and took it from job to job, so the blanket and its thickness under the saddle could adapt the saddle to the horse he was allocated at each job. A cowboy driving cattle might even ride several horses during one working day.

I once hacket the Connie, Maisie with a folded blanket under her saddle. I forget why. May be she had lost weight. but the blanket was not a good idea. I am not a well balanced rider. I have more weight on the right and it was noticeable that with the blanket I was having to try and correct this every few steps because the blanket was slipping to one side on the horse.