Treeless saddles - for breaking and jumping

[dollyanna]

I am faced in the next couple of years with getting my two baby ponies riding. They are both fell ponies, so no doubt will be awkward to fit with treed saddles, at least until they are mature. So I'm thinking of starting them both in a treeless, so at the very least I can just get the one saddle until they are going well enough to hack out together.

Are there any recommendations people have, or anything I am missing in this plan? Are they for any reason unsuitable for starting in?

Secondly, once they are riding I would like them both to be allrounders (they are a future driving pair primarily) and that obviously includes jumping, but if I were to stick to treeless are there limits on jumping in them? I don't know anyone who does use them for jumping personally. Are there particular types better for jumping?

Also, what kind of price am I looking at for a decent secondhand, or where is the best place to look? Just so I can start saving now! They are 19 months at the moment, no intention of riding before about 4 yrs.

 

[Gloi]

I've used a torsion treeless saddle on a Fell Pony and I'll admit it was comfortable but I wouldn't have trusted it for jumping or for on a pony that was just backed because the blooming thing was so insecure. If I wasn't careful to sit carefully it would just spin round as the pony had hardly any withers and once I ended on the floor opening a gate when it slipped. The pony was always awkward to fit saddles but the treeless was a lot more insecure than his treed one.

 

[PortuguesePony]

Saddles are a bloody minefield! I have tried most types of treeless over the years, before eventually coming back to a (holistically fitted) treed saddle.

A treeless is good for backing/breaking but … long term, and particularly for jumping, personally I wouldn’t. But each to their own and undoubtedly several will comment on here about how well they get on with them etc Horses for courses and all.

The way I think of treeless saddles is a bit like slippers (!) … compared to a pair of say rigid soled shoes (walking boots for instance) they are instantly more comfortable, squishy all over. But if I started wearing my squishy slippers all day every day, they just wouldn’t offer me the support I needed, longer term and would eventually make my feet sore. Whereas the more rigid walking boots, like a (well fitting) treed saddle, would offer better support … (Hope that makes some sort of sense!!)

Other things to consider are that a tree will distribute pressure over a wider surface area; with a treeless the rider’s weight more often than not is concentrated in one area, directly beneath the rider’s seatbones. You also often see soft swellings on the horse’s back, beneath the stirrup bars. I found this when I had one of the, ahem, more expensive soft-tree treeless saddles. (I won’t name and shame but please PM me if you want to know which.) Also a treeless saddle may feel uncomfortably wide on narrower hips under a flatter backed horse or pony such as a native? (as little to no, twist).

If you do go down the treeless route (as I say, I think they are fab for backing and starting youngsters, just not my personal, preference for longer term) then look at the Barefoot or the Libra, these both have good reviews, I have also used them both and are cheaper than Torsion, the Libra being the cheapest of the two but avoids those nasty Indian things like you get on eBay, that are fit only for burning!!! ROFL.

 

[springtime13]

I have backed and ridden away my warmblood mare in a heather moffett fhoenix saddle. No problems to report, and I am happy to jump small jumps in it. My physio has always been impressed with my mare's back. I think it is like any normal saddle, buy a cheap saddle and expect problems - buy decent and have it fitted and it should be fine. One exception involves the weight of the rider. Most treeless saddles have a weight limit, it's never really effected me because I'm 8 stone ish and my mare is over 16h with decent enough bone. It is something to consider though, especially when backing a youngster.

 

[horsesatemymoney]

I have a cheap treeless saddle that I use for lunging and long reining, but I wouldn't trust it to ride a youngster I was backing in

 

[Native Lover]

Libra trec are quite reccomended as good basic treeless saddle if you can get one on ebay or something second hand,

I have a cheap treeless saddle just to get the ponies used to wearing a saddle/

 

[Shysmum]

Libra are a good starting saddle, but bear in mind that you shouldn't jump in a treeless, as the stirrup connections are different, and you will be putting a lot of pressure further up the saddle.

Avoid anything from India !

 

[Rowreach]

I back several a year and have been using Solution saddles for many years now. Some of my older horses have never been ridden in treed saddles and I hunt and jump (xc and sj) in treeless.

I've found backing in treeless is very straightforward and of course there is the immense advantage of being able to rebalance the saddle throughout the horse's development (so no issues of constantly changing saddles).

 

[dollyanna]

Thank you, interesting to read and have some more things to research now!! I am glad that there are reasonably priced ones that aren't terrible, but the solutions saddles look good for maybe longer term,or heath moffett. I automatically discount anything cheap, treed or treeless, so don't worry about that, although it may be useful to play with before we get to serious work.

PortugesePony, I kind of have the same ideas as you regarding treed/treeless, but after having so many problems with my old pony finding a saddle that fitted well enough and didn't cause problems, and knowing that these two are going to be changing shape throughout the year even when fully grown, the thought of trying to find TWO saddles that fit well is a bit daunting. I'll always keep an open mind and do what's best for them though. May well need a treed saddle for at least one of them if my boyfriend is also going to ride, he's a fair bit bigger than me.

Any feedback on copperbeech saddles?

 

[RachelFerd]

I have personally found treeless saddles to be slightly insecure feeling on rounder ponies. In fact I have used one on a fell pony and found myself sliding from side to side quite dramatically despite cutting pony in half with the girth. For that reason I would probably not choose as a breaking saddle if I felt pony was likely to try and pull any stunts. On the other hand it is more than suitable for lunging, long-rening, hacking and jumping etc. etc. and so long as you feel comfortable in one and not too unstable side-to-side I don't see any harm.

 

[Shysmum]

I would go for a secondhand cheyenne (barefoot) - I adore mine, prefer it to my treed tbh.

 

[dollyanna]

So if you use a treed saddle for breaking, how do you get one that isn't going to cause problems or discomfort before you can get it fitted? Do you just get one and "make do"? Do you go down the synthetic adjustable route and just try and measure as best you can beforehand?

 

[PortuguesePony]

No, I would never just "make do" with a treed saddle.. I want to encourage my young horse or pony to work willingly and the horse's first experiences in a saddle to be a pleasant one, not to start in less comfort. Personally I do use a treeless one as a backing/starting saddle but for a youngsters first ridden saddle, I have always got on well with a correctly fitted but adjustable saddle, that can be easily adjusted as the horse's back develops. Thorogoods are good for this, particularly for natives (but not Wintec in my experience), fitted slightly wider and then padded out with prolite or half pad for instance then gives the young back the freedom to develop unhindered. This is also the basis on which Balance/Lavinia Mitchell saddles are fitted (Which is what I have on my hard to fit chunky ).

Re treed, the H. Moffett saddle is the soft-tree saddle I mentioned in my previous post. Really dissapointed with it and didn't do my horse any good but they are definitely the "Marmite" of the saddle world ... you either love 'em or hate 'em!

Like most things, it's just a case of trial and error for you and your pone and what didn't work for me, might do OK for you and vice versa. You can trial most brands now so perhaps that will offer you a good solution? Best of luck

 

[GinaGeo]

Love the Solution saddles. Mine don't go in anything else and I use them for all activites like rowreach. My 5 year old has never been ridden in anything else. Very useful to be able to adjust the balance as and when needed

 

[dollyanna]

Thanks PP, I just couldn't get my head around starting a young pony in a treed saddle that wasn't fitted, but you can't fit them properly 'til they're started, so treeless seemed to be a way forward. I will do more investigating, got a bit of time yet but no harm in being prepared

 

[siennamum]

we backed and rode away in a torsion. Made horse's back sore - not ideal really.
Have now bought a treed saddle, and horse is much happier in it.

 

[PortuguesePony]

Yes - I never really realised there was a problem with one of my horses in his treeless until I switched to treed and my horse who was "fine" as he was, was suddenly a better horse in a treed saddle
When I say I use them for initial backing process, I am talking just lunging, leaning over and sitting on ... I always like the first ridden saddle to be a treed as per my previous post. But again, 'tis only my humble opinion

And just to stick me oar in one last time (!) ... you certainly can fit a saddle to a young horse before they are ridden provided the horse is already happy wearing one and a rider just sitting on - this is what I use the treeless for. The wider fitting tree with seperate padding to allow from muscle development for me is the key part. And definitely no harm in doing as much research as poss ahead of time, it'll make you better informed (hopefully!) and better prepared for the choices you do make and ... it'll save you time when your pony is ready

 

[GinaGeo]

I'll add that I wouldn't even consider using a treeless saddle without seeing the scientific pressure testing first. Solution saddles are rigorously tested and I haven't at any point experienced one slippling either laterally or forward/back. I do use a breastplate when jumping, but I would do that with a treed saddle anyway.

ETA: It's certainly worth having a speicalist advisor get you sorted to start with so you know what you're doing. A badly fitted treeless saddles will do just as much harm as a badly fitted treed saddle.

 

[kizzyjerry]

I've just had this debate with myself and decided to go back to treed for a while. I've been using treeless for 5+ years and just backed my lad in a barefoot.

I find when mounting my saddle slips slightly -not an issue with my old boy as i just 'jump' on but with being slower and more careful with the youngster i have to get someone to hold the saddle every time which is a pain, i would image any 'mishaps' at the mounting stage would result in the saddle being round his belly . I also feel a bit insecure during 'baby about turns' and find the twist in treed stops this.

Borrowed a friends treed today which i felt really happy in so going down this route for now, i will return to treeless asap as can really notice the difference with less feel and being further away.

 

[Shysmum]

With a treeless saddle, you must ALWAYS mount from a block.

 

[Kokopelli]

Another vote for solutions, just got a freestyle dressage for my boys and do everything in it (including jumping) If anything I feel more secure in it and my boys are 100 times happier.

Now saving up for a jump saddle

 

[Spotsrock]

My physio recommended a treeless for my jumping pony who is prone to back problems. Best move ever. I've designed and had my own made but got on quite well with freemax jump for competing previously. She jumps meter plus in it no problem.

 

[Chellebean]

Love the Solution saddles. Mine don't go in anything else and I use them for all activites like rowreach. My 5 year old has never been ridden in anything else. Very useful to be able to adjust the balance as and when needed

Ditto this

 

[Sol]

I've jumped 3'6 in my HM Vogue dressage...

And Dante's also attempted to drop me in it, and failed

Saddle didn't budge, and I stayed on

Dante is a lot broader than he looks too. No Fell, but very flat topped. I plan to hopefully back my Fell in this saddle, or one of the new FlexEE GPs. I've been really impressed with the vogue.

 

[Kallibear]

You really need to see and ride in the various different style first.

Hate the Torsion/ Barefoot type saddles. Glorified pads with pommel and cantle stuck on. Very little protection for the horse and well known to cause pressure points from the stirrups.

Really like the Freeform/ Freemax style: the base is very solid and supportive and gives the horse a lot of protection. However they often come up too long and will never distribute pressure completely.

Been very unimpressed with the Heather Moffett saddles. Seem and tried quite a few types and found they are badly designed in shape for a lot of horses. They are solid and ridged enough to distribute weight as well as a treed but by the same token they therefore need to fit just as well as a treed saddle
I've found in every case the gullet collapses ( front back and middle) and pinches the spine, even shimmed up. You need a flat wide horse with very little wither/spine to prevent that.

Seen but never tried the Ansur/ Solution saddles. Look similar to the HM saddles but less likely to collapsein the gullet.

As for breaking: my freeform is great and been used to break quite a few babies. Very stable, moulds to their shape and is comfortable but still protects their back. Stirrup bars can be moved for jumping although I wouldn't want to jump huge in it. But then baby horses don't generally jump 3ft +

Roo demonstrating my Freeform. I had to chop a good few inches off the back though to make it short enough for short fat Piper