Treeless saddles for building muscle?

[saddlesore]

Hey guys, i'm looking to rack your brains about treeless saddles! My boy looks a bit 'saggy' in the middle, its not conformational and i do (attempt) to ride him properly, its just that he does not seem able to build musle over his back! I was wondering if anyone had any experience of treeless saddles and whether they could help? ALso, he has high withers and a reasonably prominent spine -would treeless cause problems?!
Thanks in advance!

 

[Ezme]

Sounds like a prime candidate for treeless to be honest! If his conformation is not the same as which a tree is meant to fit around it could be restricting him in some manner. Anyway you could borrow one?

 

[saddlesore]

I had his saddle made for him and i'm sure it has one of those curved trees that make the saddle look as though it fits, but actually prevents him from rounding his back! Have you ever ridden in one? Do they feel wobbly?!

 

[PurplePickle]

Ive just got two treeless to try, my horse is very high withered with muscle wastage either side, now the GP have a peice that sits right across his withers so would need a thick polly pad type But Im also trying a dressage saddle which is treeless, it has a cut back at the wither and fits much more nicely might be worth considering?

 

[Comanche]

I bought a fabulous treeless from an ebay person. It is fantastic. I have a 16hh old lady woth high withers and in need of muscle building. She didn't suit the treeless I already had in, so I tried this other one which has saddle pads much like a normal saddle. It is wonderful. PM me if you want details. i am currently saving to buy another one for one of my high withered rescues.

 

[saddlesore]

Hiya, thanks for your advice! Can you please advise me what make your treeless saddle is? ANy opinions on the torsion/horse and harmony ones?

 

[Serephin]

I have the barefoot cheyenne - used it on my TB - he had no muscle to start with and the treeless definitely gave him the flexibility to build muscle - used with the right pads it should be fine for your neddy.

 

[Kenzo]

I used a torsion before and really liked it and do rate treeless providing they are fitted correctly just like any other saddle should be, however before you think treeless is the answer please do take make sure there are no other reasons why he may not be developing along back, your riding?, his paces?, again have your saddle checked, a back person to make sure there is nothing hindering him, or a vet (that's if you have already done so) you can build muscle up without actually having to ride him by doing various lunge work etc but this takes time specially if he's not used to actually going in the way where he will work through his back, so again yes it may be something to do with the saddle but it also could be something else as well and its better to have a process of elimination rather than thinking it could just be your saddle....again just something to think about if you have not taken above into consideration.

 

[saddlesore]

Hiya, yeah back, teeth etc all been checked. He is a really tense type, especially with his schooling so that doesnt exactly help coz i find it very difficult to convince him to relax and travel forward, he can get tense and choppy instead. Conversely, lungeing can result it crazy gallop which isnt much good either! Bloody TB! Any schooling tips that might help him relax and build more muscle?

 

[Kenzo]

Hi Saddlesore,

I think I understand your situation and that you are exploring various avenues to help your horse with his/her ridden work but changing saddles might not change your horse being from being tense. How long have you had your TB, what has your TB done in the past? what do you do during your warm up? is your TB difficult on the lunge or is he just rushing about to get it other and done with? is it a case of him not being highly strung but the more you work him in the more tense he gets? it sounds familiar if that is the case and yes there is light at the end of the tunnel, but I would suggest you establish his lunge work and take him back to basics if you can, yes your right he can't develop if he's tense or feeling uncofortable but he will only develop muscle if his paces, posture is correct which will won't happen unless he working through and working at slower place with his paces.
You need to see how he is going and build him up without you on board so you or saddle can't hinder him (not saying that you are/do) but then you will get a clearer picture of what you need to work with, otherwise you make it harder for your horse.
It could take you six months but this is better than another 12 months of the same old, and then another 12 months time having back problems because he's got used to putting himself into a tense frame everytime you school your horse. If you can give me some more info then I may be able to suggest some schooling work that you could do.

Sorry a bit long winded but just trying to open a few doors to help you see that the root might (only might) not be the issue here.

 

[saddlesore]

Hi Kenzo, thanks for your reply, here goes......! I have had him 5 years and to be honest, i think the tense thing is getting worse rather than better. Its so frustrating because he hacks like a dream - totaly unflappable. I think we have got into a bit of a downward spiral in our schooling ie, he gets tense, i get annoyed, i make him more tense etc! And because there are certain times i anticipate a spook, i probably over shorten him and aggrivate things further. I have tried just going in and walking on a loose rein to take all the presure off us both but even that isn't very helpful - although without eyes on the ground (must organise lessons!) its very hard to tell if i am the one causing the problems! Lungeing is a strange one, i cannot tell if he is genuinely scared or trying to scare me into 'backing down'. Sometimes he will lunge PEFECTLY, total response to my voice, soft over the back etc, jump quietly, and other times - incidently there is no warning of this - he is going round quite the thing when he loses the plot completely and starts galloping round and round, wide eyed and hollow before charging into the centre to snort next to me and scare the living daylights out of me! I guess he's a bit of a complex chap, but if you can think of anything to help i'd be very grateful! i realise a change of saddle isnt the answer to all our problems but i had wondered if spooking and being tense was a form of evasion because he feels he cannot do what is being asked. Like i said, i do not have these issues out hacking!!!

 

[Madasmaz]

Hmmm, be very careful about which brand you buy. Barefoot and Torsion have very good customer service, and Barefoots are very reasonably priced. Also Shires have bought out one with an interchangeable seat which looks very much like a normal saddle. I wouldn't go for anything else. You also need to consider how you ride, because once you remove the tree from the saddle you are the weight bearing area, so if you have a nice fleshy bum of decent size you will have a larger load bearing area than some one who is petit and not so fleshy. My local saddler is doing a study with Manchester Uni on this issue, and is adamant that for treeless you have to look at the horse and rider biomechanics combined to see if a treeless will really work for your situation. Have you thought about using a sheepskin before changing your saddle completely? Spending £50 rather than a few £100?

 

[Kenzo]

When you say he is fine when you hack out, does this mean he is:-
Relaxed, going well and maintaining a contact, this may be easier for him because he's not been asked to ride in circles etc

Relaxed because your not asking for the same contact (are you riding differently out on hacks as you would do in the ménage) therefore you can't expect him to start to carry himself and use himself in the school if he' used to being ridden a different manor most of the time while out hacking, takes time for them to adjust and time to adapt to both, hence causing frustration and possibly a few aches and pains.

Is there any difference if you school after a short hack or before, thus giving him time to warm up without warming up in the ménage, but in the ménage warming up takes as long as it takes and remember no bends, or circles should asked in this time. Only when you feel he has stretched, and is relaxed from mouth to tail (poll, neck, back) do you then start to ask for soft contact, do this gradually, do you take a short contact straight away?, have you tried building up a contact over a a few months giving him time for his muscles to adjust?

Think of it like this, your a gymnast, you can do the splits, you've trained for months, you go for a gently jog to warm up and someone expects you to do the splits straight to the floor legs either side after your 10 minute jog, is this possible?, yes probably, but there is every chance you may pull something or feel tension and pain the next day, why? because you may not of warmed up in the correct way, how long has it taken you do the splits?, could of been months of stretching little by little each night....sounds daft but its a simple way of explaining training, exercise and results, get one wrong and its throws the other out.

Is your horse comfortable in his mouth, is he yanking at the bit, can you feel the bit banging on his teeth, opening his mouth, turning his head to the side? this will have a knock on effect all the way through the poll, neck and spine, again he may not do this while hacking do to some of the reasons above, or perhaps he just makes do because he's happier hacking?...again just a thought.

Is there any difference to being lunged either with a lunge cavason/headcoller or bridle? ....could be the bit/teeth/type of noseband

How long do you lunge him for?, remember a good 10 minutes is better than a bad 20 minutes, end on a good note and increase his time on the lunge over a period of months rather than lunging him for the same amount of time and wondering if he's going to be well behaved or not each time, Are you being consistent when lunging him or when schooling? again could be just a naughty habit and plays up when he doesn't want to be lunged so do you give in and let him have his own way? are you a little nervous when he comes into you snorting etc?, what do you do in your lunge work?, again a good well behaved relaxed and controlled brisk walk for 10 minutes is better than a quick walk, then dashing around in a trot and ending in a uncontrolled canter like the wall of death and nearly throwing themselves on the floor, which could of scared him in the past if this has happened (many many years ago).

Is he better on one rein than the other? do you favour one rein rather than the other when lunging him because he messing about on one particular rein? have you tried warming and stretching in hand, do you work large circles on the lunge or small?

Phew, well I'm sure there loads more questions or possible reasons that I could bore you with but without actually seeing what he's doing or knowing the horse and his background then I can't really keep babbling on (sorry you may of fallen asleep by this point!

) again these are just random reasons/ideas, which you may of already ruled out, so I apologies if you are already aware of all of the above

but ideally I would recommend you get a really good RI, plus its not good you telling them what he's doing, they need to climb aboard and get feel for him, a good instructor observes from both the ground and whilst on your horse. They may be able to give you a schooling plan to suit your horses ability and just as important.... its temperament too which over the months you hopefully will see an improvement in both his mind and his body.

Has your TB ever raced in his past?

Right I'll shut up now otherwise I'll babble on forever more, hope things work out for you both.

 

[saddlesore]

Hiya, thanks! Phew! Yeah raced in the past and pre-novice eventing als=though not with me! Can be very snatchy and mouthy with the bit, have tried almost everything! Now ride in a straight bar nathe loose ring, not great but the best i have tumbed upon! I do a mixture of buckle end and working on the bit whilst im out hacking, but hadnt really thought about the whole circle, balance issue - guess that would make sense re lunging 'tantrums' too, hmmm! Incidently, he never gets his own way when an idiot, i tend to just keep him going unitl he calms down then finish when he behaves himself! Ps It definatley scares me when he runs at me snorting - he's a big boy!!