Treeless vs Treed saddles--interesting observation

cundlegreen

cundlegreen

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I have a Hackney driving horse that I sometimes ride to get her supple. She's only been ridden a handful of times, always in my treeless saddle. Never any problems despite me worrying about my weight on the pads. Yesterday, I tried my reflocked kieffer saddle on her. It was a good fit, so I thought I'd ride her in that, as it has much more knee roll. The minute I mounted her, her back was arched right up. I rode her about 50 yards up the road, and she felt as if she would buck any minute (never has done anything like that before). Discretion is definitely the better part of valour, so I returned her to the yard, and put on the treeless. Completely different animal! So there's no doubt in my mind that treeless do have their place, especially with very sensitive horses like mine.
 
My Mum loves her treeless... she has a very round and short backed arab, and every saddle rubbed him at the back.. on top of that my Mum has back problems. The treeless has sorted both issues....

I would caveat it though to say you need to be well balanced and fairly light for them... I wouldn't like to see a novice or chunkier person in one as there is no panel to spread the weight accross the horses back muscles.
 
But was the treed saddle fitted to her? Recently, by a first rate fitter? I've not met a horse yet out fitting that hasn't been happy in a well fitting treed, not saying they don't exist, but not met one yet!
 
sbloom - I don't know, I had a very well rated saddle fitter fit my gelding, and yes, the saddle was lovely, felt gorgeous to me, and fitted him well.... but it didn't feel as good still as the treeless we tried a few weeks later! :)
 
What I will say is that the horse's opinion is very important in what consitutes a "good fit" - as a fitter I have to be wary of a horse loving a saddle just because it has alleviated existing pressure points, only to create new ones. BUT I do have some horses going brilliantly in saddles that are not quite a text book fit. Whatever that may be of course!

Then the rider needs to be comfortable - the saddle needs to fit WITH the rider and if the rider ends up in the wrong position - for instance a very tall rider sitting on the cantle - then it won't fit for that combination.

I'm no great fan of treeless but I obviously see that they can be useful in some circumstances, but in this case it's all a bit too far from being scientific for me to let it lie!
 
there was a conference on saddle fitting in Cambridge a few weeks ago and I was told by someone who attended that they discussed treeless v treed, and came to the conclusion that treed (correctly fitted) is better...
however, there are always exceptions.
i totally agree that the horse's opinion is very important... imho it is a lot more important than the saddler's!
 
kerilli said:
i totally agree that the horse's opinion is very important... imho it is a lot more important than the saddler's!
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Definitely. I have Solution Saddles, the dressage and the jumper and use them to event. My horse couldn't be happier and certainly much happier than in well fitting treed saddle.

They're not for every horse, they're no miracle cure for back/ saddle issues but as K said, the horses opinion counts and as an owner of an extremely sensitive mare, I listen to her over anyone else.
 
Kerilli - I would hazard a guess that most people at the saddle fitting conference were mainly saddle fitters who like treed more though?

Mine seems to be happy in his treeless, but then still has a treed jumping saddle. I tried and tried and tried to get a second hand treed dressage saddle to fit, but simply couldn't find one. I bought a treeless one off the shelf and had it fitted by my saddle fitter/chiro. The quality treed new dressage saddles were simply not in my budget.
 
I ride in Solution saddles and have done for years, but I would agree that a correctly fitted treed saddle is probably the best thing for both horse and rider - the problem being that a saddle correctly fitted to a horse today, will not fit it correctly in a fortnight/month/year etc etc :( whereas I can tweak and adjust my treeless saddles to fit any horse, in any condition, at any time of the year, and I can balance them to suit any rider. I can back a youngster in one, know that it will be comfortable during the process, and know that the same saddle will fit that youngster throughout its development.

If I was a top rider being sponsored by a saddle company, I would have a range of their treed saddles at my disposal, and a saddle fitter on call to make sure that my horses had the optimum fit of saddle at all times .... but I'm not and I don't :D

It doesn't surprise me at all that the OPs horse was happier in treeless :)
 
kerilli said:
the conclusion that treed (correctly fitted) is better...
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That's my opinion too, however I believe a treeless saddle is better than an incorrectly fitting treed saddle. Wibs is a bit of a dodgy shape and after having three saddles for him in a year and none of them fitting correctly (all being shunted forwards by his movement - he's not a 'big' mover but he has narrower shoulders and a larger behind - the treeless flexes with every step to accomodate this!) I've had to go treeless. Does feel wierd though having used narrow-twisted close contacts for the past 7 years :p

cundlegreen, could it be that with your horse not being used to the 'restricted' feel over her back that a tree might cause? Even if it's not a bad fit it still won't flex like the treeless, and a driving harness wouldn't act that way either?
 
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sbloom said:
But was the treed saddle fitted to her? Recently, by a first rate fitter? I've not met a horse yet out fitting that hasn't been happy in a well fitting treed, not saying they don't exist, but not met one yet!
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Rusky HATES treed saddles and we tried every type available over a number of days by different saddlers.

Then again Freddy hates the treeless so there you go! :D
 
My mare was broken in a heather moffett treeless as she was very wide as a youngster. Her back has always been fab, regularly checked by top back lady. Anyway, I have since found she will not tolerate a treed saddle. Even a pro fitted one.
 
BronsonNutter said:
That's my opinion too, however I believe a treeless saddle is better than an incorrectly fitting treed saddle. Wibs is a bit of a dodgy shape and after having three saddles for him in a year and none of them fitting correctly (all being shunted forwards by his movement - he's not a 'big' mover but he has narrower shoulders and a larger behind - the treeless flexes with every step to accomodate this!) I've had to go treeless. Does feel wierd though having used narrow-twisted close contacts for the past 7 years :p

cundlegreen, could it be that with your horse not being used to the 'restricted' feel over her back that a tree might cause? Even if it's not a bad fit it still won't flex like the treeless, and a driving harness wouldn't act that way either?
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First of all, to some of you who queried this, the treed saddle WAS a good fit, and, yes, I do know what I am talking about. It was the right width, and had plenty of clearance for the spine, hence the reason for riding in it, as I am 12 stone, and have concerns about my weight on a treeless, which only has thin, albeit very resilient foam pads in the under numnah. The mare literally had her back arched up about 6". Very peculiar to sit to!
She is used to a very rigid driving pad, and has never shown the same thing in that, even with heavyweight shafts through the tugs.
It just goes to show, judging by the replies that some horses are much happier in treeless. Being a Hackney, she is very sensitive, and I will keep her with what she is happy in.
 
The right width and clearance over the spine is about 20% of saddle fit. And as I say, if the horse is unhappy in it then a textbook fit is neither here nor there, the saddle must be fitted to the horse, which means taking its opinion into account. One day I will run a clinic/lecture demo for people to bring along horses who "won't" go in treed saddles....
 
Rowreach said:
the problem being that a saddle correctly fitted to a horse today, will not fit it correctly in a fortnight/month/year etc etc :( whereas I can tweak and adjust my treeless saddles to fit any horse, in any condition, at any time of the year, and I can balance them to suit any rider. I can back a youngster in one, know that it will be comfortable during the process, and know that the same saddle will fit that youngster throughout its development.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the OPs horse was happier in treeless :)
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^5 to this!
I ride all my horses in a solutions and haven't found one yet who doesn't go well in it.
I broke my mare in in one, after trying a well fitted treed saddle that she hated.
I can't see myself riding in a treed saddle again :)
 
I do cover the south west, the Midlands, the south east and East Anglia...but you may be outside of that, forgive me if you've ever told me where you are JT :)
 
sbloom said:
I do cover the south west, the Midlands, the south east and East Anglia...but you may be outside of that, forgive me if you've ever told me where you are JT :)
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I am near Bedford, do you come out this far? And if so what treeless saddles do you sell please?
 
mongy46 said:
I am near Bedford, do you come out this far? And if so what treeless saddles do you sell please?
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Yes indeed, I was near Luton yesterday :) but I'm afraid I don't fit treeless saddles at all, if you Google my surname and saddle fitter then you'll find me, I don't want to be seen as advertising.
 
Mmmm IMO there is a place for both treed and treeless saddles. But the fundamental thing, for me at least, with no "saddle fitting" experience as such, is that whatever is on the horse's back has to be comfortable for the horse and rider combination, together.

Some treed saddles, if fitted incorrectly, are no better than instruments of torture for some unfortunate horses; similarly a treeless saddle if it doesn't adequately support the rider - particularly where the stirrup bars are placed as with a treed saddle the tree should act as a support, whereas with a treeless saddle there isn't anything to cushion the horse from the pressure of the stirrup bars, which can cause a pressure point and/or indentation at the point where the stirrup insert lies on the horse's back. Some treeless saddles are better at supporting this than others; and the danger is that some people think they're doing the best thing for their horses by "going treeless" when a treed saddle would be far better for the horse and rider.

I've got a treed saddle AND a treeless saddle for my two, and use both on a regular basis. Well, you don't just have one pair of shoes do you????
 
You can also get indentations under the seat bones, even with the very best treeless saddles. I posted a link on my Facebook saddle fitting page to a limited but interesting piece of research into treed versus treeless, the treed actually placed a lot less pressure on the horse's back in every area, not just bars and seatbones, but it seems to have been pulled. It was here http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...mance-center/publications-1/postercvm.msu.edu
 
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