Trevor Morse Article in Telegraph

[MontyandZoom]

Well considering how many packs there are and the length of time that the ban has been in place and being 'monitored', doesn't the fact that there have been hardly any convictions make the monitors re-think. I mean FFS, what a load of bollocks. Hunting has been outlawed, so why don't they get a new cause. I don't understand??!!

'I have based my opinion on what I have learned of the case so far and have only commented on that and nothing more'

Oh right.......so your opinion of hunting has nothing to do with it. My apologies, your comments have been completely focused on the facts of the case that have been publicised thus far. :smirk:

As for speeding past horses.......absolutely outrageous!

 

[kit279]

If you speed up when you see horses on the roads, you should be aware that most horses weigh the better part of half a tonne and the bulk of that weight is in their bodies, perched on 4 not-terribly-substantial legs. If by any chance, you should spook a horse into your car's path at any speed, you would break their legs and the body of the horse would crash through your windscreen, very likely killing you in addition to the horse. This is an extremely common problem in countries such as Canada and Finland with moose, where a very large number of fatalities occur on the roads as a result of these collisions. You put your own life at risk, in addition to that of a totally innocent animal. Ironically, I'm sure you would totally be outraged if I sped up when I saw a fox crossing the road. You give no credibility to your arguments about the hunting fraternity defending their right to kill innocent animals when you, yourself, make statements like that.

 

[Scratchline]

Perhaps Scratchline you should be prepared to be more respectful and mature in discussing your views. You have every right to your views but no right to be dis-respectful and hurtful to those of us who's views differ from your own.

Maybe you would like to point out what exactly I have said that is either disrespectul, hurtful or indeed immature? And if you are suggesting an adult on a public forum is going to bow down to others in the face of a mere difference of opinion ( which I am putting forward in a fair, sensible and 'nice', way),you are very much mistaken, naive and very wrong to either suggest or demand that. Perhaps you are out of your depth in an adult discussion.

I mean i'm 17 and there have been a fair few members i feel acting even less mature than myself. Then take that up with them please.

I respect those who don't agree with hunting, however i do not respect those who don't agree with hunting and then torment, dis-respect and act aggresivley toward those people who's livelihood is hunting. Again, could you point out what you believe I have said or done wrong please?

And to be honest, half the time the facts of hunting that people like yourselfs blat around are actually your own assumptions and not even slightly true.

People like me? You dont know anything about me, my interests or indeed my view on hunting because I have never told you and you havent had the good grace to ask before making rather childish assumptions.

 

[lastrebel]

I grew up with horses never owned one myself but family did. I have been on riding holidays and rode with friends and think I can judge a horse quite well.
The rider is spooked or upset long before the horse.
Though I would say to any sab toying with idea its not clever so dont think about doing it.
It appears from this thread that most of you are quite rational, intelligent people but whilst in your ranks you have people like Ottis Ferry there will always be people like me.

 

[Scratchline]

Well considering how many packs there are and the length of time that the ban has been in place and being 'monitored', doesn't the fact that there have been hardly any convictions make the monitors re-think. I mean FFS, what a load of bollocks. Hunting has been outlawed, so why don't they get a new cause. I don't understand??!!

Sadly, many supporters of hunting freely went on record stating there was no way on this earth they would be forced to stop hunting. Should a law be brought in ( which there has been), banning hunting, they would niether support it or abide by it. Perhaps that is why people feel the need to monitor hunts. "Every action.....etc etc etc


Oh right.......so your opinion of hunting has nothing to do with it. My apologies, your comments have been completely focused on the facts of the case that have been publicised thus far. :smirk:

Nothing whatsoever. Have you hit upon something here maybe. It is not me with the problem because I am the unbiased one lol lol lol

As for speeding past horses.......absolutely outrageous!

But of course not said by me.

 

[combat_claire]

I grew up with horses never owned one myself but family did. I have been on riding holidays and rode with friends and think I can judge a horse quite well.
The rider is spooked or upset long before the horse.

Wow, I'm impressed in a split second as you drive up to a horse you are able to assess the age, temperament and history of the animal in question to know whether it might be unnerved by something zooming past it at speed. With that ability it is a tragedy you never made an equine career...

As a matter of course as soon as I see a horse in front of me I automatically slow down, keep well back if oncoming traffic means I can't pass and as soon as it is safe to do so pass wide and slow to give the horse time to see what is approaching before passing and gently accelerating. I know I couldn't live with myself if anyone was injured because of my selfish actions. Shame not everyone shares this view.

 

[kit279]

You may very well be able to judge a horse quite well, but I feel strongly that the time between the sighting a horse and rider on the roads and the pressing of your accelerator is not sufficient to judge what that horse will or will not do in front of your car. It is your life to risk, but it is not your horse and I would seriously urge you to reconsider. There are many very decent people out there who do not and will never hunt nor support hunting but who own horses and care very much for them. By all means, express yourself and your views but to risk a rider or a horse's life on the offchance that they may be a hunt supporter, is playing Russian roulette with other people's much loved animals. Even if I felt as strongly as you do about hunting, there are better ways of expressing this.

 

[Girlracer]

Maybe you would like to point out what exactly I have said that is either disrespectul, hurtful or indeed immature? And if you are suggesting an adult on a public forum is going to bow down to others in the face of a mere difference of opinion ( which I am putting forward in a fair, sensible and 'nice', way),you are very much mistaken, naive and very wrong to either suggest or demand that. Perhaps you are out of your depth in an adult discussion.



People like me? You dont know anything about me, my interests or indeed my view on hunting because I have never told you and you havent had the good grace to ask before making rather childish assumptions.

“There is only one person who should apologise for the hurt and distress he has caused them and sadly Trevor is dead so he cannot, its too late.”

“Trevor obviously took the law into his own hands as many of the hunting fraternity will no doubt also do in the future”

“Any "normal human being", would NOT have acted as either Trevor or Marles did in actual fact!”

Just to quote a few statements which IMO are dis-respectful and rude. Which Scratchline you wrote.

Am i really naive to suggest you respect family and friends of both Trevor and Marles at this dreadful time. No i don't think i am. It's a fairly obvious thing that i don't think should need to be pointed out quite frankly.

 

[combat_claire]

Sadly, many supporters of hunting freely went on record stating there was no way on this earth they would be forced to stop hunting. Should a law be brought in ( which there has been), banning hunting, they would niether support it or abide by it. Perhaps that is why people feel the need to monitor hunts. "Every action.....etc etc etc

And this was before we knew the full format that the Hunting Act would take, it was fully accepted that hunting would never be able to continue and that the legislation would be sewn up tighter than a duck's arse. I was there on that November night when they announced they had used the Parliament Act to ban hunting, I remember the emotion as our hunt staff and masters faced losing their jobs, and truly thought that the hounds we loved so much would have no future.

The legislation that was finally passed turned out to be so gappy that we were fully able to obey the law and still perform hunting style activites. It must have been a real disappointment for the anti-hunting brigade to wake up on the 19th February and see that very little had changed - people in smart riding kit, were still taking their hounds out, but utilising exemptions to the best of their ability.

 

[MontyandZoom]

I have only hunted twice and so I feel like can justifiably call myself unbiased. I didn't see anything that suggested that suggested that the huntsman would flout the ban at all. Those comments were made years ago before the ban came in. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Can't you even try and see how, for the vast majority that are undeniably undertaking a legal activity by trail hunting, the presence of stick-wielding, balaclava wearing, shouting mobs might be just a little bit annoying.

I also really doubt that you are in a position to comment about horses spooking since you obviously have very little experience. My horses are always ALOT more upset than i am!

 

[Scratchline]

Just to quote a few statements which IMO are dis-respectful and rude. Which Scratchline you wrote.

I disagree with you.

Am i really naive to suggest you respect family and friends of both Trevor and Marles at this dreadful time. No i don't think i am. It's a fairly obvious thing that i don't think should need to be pointed out quite frankly.

This is a public forum. You and everybody else can decide whether you wish to read the posts it contains or not.

 

[Scratchline]

I also really doubt that you are in a position to comment about horses spooking since you obviously have very little experience. My horses are always ALOT more upset than i am! [/quote]

I have to go out for a while. Whilst I am away can you read back and understand I have not commented whatsoever on horses being spooked.
As for your suggestion that i 'obviously have very little experience'???? You really do not know me or anything about me so please dont make things up just to suit your own stance lol lol

 

[combat_claire]

This is a public forum. You and everybody else can decide whether you wish to read the posts it contains or not.

Yes it is a public forum, but human nature surely gives you some appreciation of what his family must be going for, and the tiniest shred of sympathy wouldn't go amiss. Other posts on this forum have shown that his friends and family are out there and reading some of these contributions.

 

[combat_claire]

If the pilot was doing wrong that is up to the authorities to deal with. Not one of the hunt followers.

You are very keen for the proper authorities to be used when it is the antis under suspicion of wrong doing, yet presumably you believe the hunt monitors are in the right to perform surveillance of hunts rather than leaving that to the proper authorities, which in this country are the police not vigilante groups.

 

[MontyandZoom]

I grew up with horses never owned one myself but family did. I have been on riding holidays and rode with friends and think I can judge a horse quite well.

I am purely going by what you have written about your experiences. I am not making any assumptions at all. The above does not IMO point towards an experienced horseperson.

IThe rider is spooked or upset long before the horse.

Is this a clear enough reference for you? I think you should read your own posts before having a pop at me. I also asked you a question about those hunting legally being intimidated by yobs. It seems that where I am trying to have a rational debate because I am geniunely interested, you are just trying to stir up trouble. It's a shame since, as I have stated, I don't know much about hunting and could do with some info.

 

[Scratchline]

Is this a clear enough reference for you?

Are you talking to me or lastrebel, just so that I can be sure please?

 

[Scratchline]

[/quote]Yes it is a public forum, but human nature surely gives you some appreciation of what his family must be going for, and the tiniest shred of sympathy wouldn't go amiss. Other posts on this forum have shown that his friends and family are out there and reading some of these contributions. [/quote]

I believe that at worst I have said that IMHO he was stupid to go and get involved in something which frankly was an accident waiting to happen. I cannot understand why he would do this. Maybe he was angry and emotionally out of control but I shall not speculate as I am sure the video evidence will tell us more.
I believe his death is a terrible waste of life and feel deeply sorry for all involved. On both sides.

 

[Scratchline]

You are very keen for the proper authorities to be used when it is the antis under suspicion of wrong doing, yet presumably you believe the hunt monitors are in the right to perform surveillance of hunts rather than leaving that to the proper authorities, which in this country are the police not vigilante groups. [/quote]

The authorities have made it very clear they are unable to properly police this law. Hunt monitors acting within the law I have absolutely no problem with. I have nothing to hide.
In the same way I have absolutely no problem with neighbourhood watch members who do exactly the same and then pass on information to the proper authorities.

 

[JanetGeorge]

However, he would not have died had he stayed away from the gyrocopter and pilot. If the pilot was doing wrong that is up to the authorities to deal with. Not one of the hunt followers. Unless you wish to suggest also that Trevor just happened to be in the same place by accident?!

And if the hunts are doingwrong, is it not up to the authorities to deal with it rather than self-appointed vigilantes??

Obviously the police have seen video of EXACTLY what happened and the CPS felt the EVIDENCE warranted the charge.

As to your view of it, one could point out that if so-called monitors stayed away from horses they would not end up in ditches. And I am not FOR A MOMENT defending the actions of Christopher Marles - which were totally unacceptable!!

However, there is NO doubt that antis do some pretty stupid things around horses and that WILL lead to accidents! I recall a sab running up behind a young horse ridden by our hunt chairman who politely remonstrated with the sab - saying: "If this horse kicks, you'll be in real trouble." The sab responded: "No, mate - if your horse kicks me, you'll be in trouble!"

Hunt chairman (who was a magistrate) said: "I will indeed be GREATLY embarrassed explaining your demise to the Cononer's Court - sadly you won't be there to enjoy my discomfiture." Sab: "duh..." (He obviously wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer! :grin

 

[JanetGeorge]

Incidentally anyone who deliberately and recklessly speeds past any animal in their car doesn't deserve to retain their license. Don't you realise what injuries you could cause to both horse and rider if you spooked them.

Actually, anyone who deliberately and recklessly speeds past a horse is just damn stupid because - ignoring the harm they'll do to horse and rider, which they obviously don't CARE about - chances are the least they'll do to themselves is trash their car, and the worst is to be killed - when the horse comes through the windscreen or onto the roof. Several motorists are killed every year through hitting horses! (Far more horses are killed, of course!)

 

[lastrebel]

Montyandzoom

When you have watched a heavily pregnet vixen with blooded muzzle from terrier bites held aloft a pack of baying hounds and laughing men, when you have seen a fox halfway through a fence with a hunt folowers foot on one end a pack of gnawing hounds the other, when you heard the roars of pleasure and joy as a fox is caught, when you have duck heads thrown at you (yep duck heads) then my friend you have been hunting.be careful whose company you keep.There are other things as evil in this world but not happening on my doorstep.
"all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

 

[rosie fronfelen]

ok, not pleasant as you describe it, but what about the remains of lambs( what is left of them) crying ewes,(very maternal creatures)dead chickens massacred for the hell of it(foxes don't just kill to eat) also they hunt in the day as much as at night, ducks and geese slaughtered(very vulnerable creatures) and so on- are these slaughters acceptable, also it's ok to shoot a fox is it? % of folk are NOT good shots where a fox is concerned, nothing more cruel than an unclean shot for the poor unfortunate creature to die in agony, a long lingering death following gangrenous wounds. this is preferable is it-? or snaring perhaps, another long lingering death, or maybe poison, now that's a good idea- poison the rest of the local wild life too!! all terrific ways to despatch the fox, NOT!! think on-----

 

[Scratchline]

Hi there. I can assure you that if we were discussing something that had happened to a sab I would be equally honest in giving my opinion.

And if the hunts are doingwrong, is it not up to the authorities to deal with it rather than self-appointed vigilantes?? Most definately yes. Sadly however in both complaints about the gyrocopter and over fears of illegal hunting nothing it seems is done by the authorities. People then decide, wrongly to take the law into their own hands. I honestly believe that happened in this case, on both sides.

The law on hunting isnt working so either ban it absolutely and completely or allow its return. As this is such an emotive issue I would not this time be against a referendum. It is our country and countryside so why shouldnt we all decide, once and for all.

 

[MontyandZoom]

When I have seen all those things then I am sure I will have the same opinion of hunting and those who take pleasure from it as you. Until then, my opinion is based on my own experience of hunting which was all positive bar the intimidating behaviour of the sabs.

Anyhoo, I didn't want to be coaxed into a discussion about hunting, just wanted to comment about how I feel about peoples' reaction to this tragic incident. Happy hunting and sabbing......sorry monitering

 

[MontyandZoom]

ps - I got confused about what had been said by lastrebel and scratchline......they somehow merged into one person in my mind. Scratchline - you didn't mention the horses spooking or your experience so my comments should indeed have been directed at LR.

 

[hunterswind]

Please check out all Sporting Shooter posts as we are getting info all the time.

http://smallholderinscotland.blogspot.com/] http://smallholderinscotland.blogspot.com/[/url]

Andy

 

[majicmoment]

Thankyou for providing the link to a very interesting article. I see you make no comment about the actual introduction but that of course covers the violence directed toward monitors by some pretty nasty louts on horseback.
Already on a suspended sentence for violence, dear Marlesy once more took the law into his own agresive hands and was described in court as an "arrogant, cowardly, drunken lout", was he not?!

Perhaps before all the facts are known about poor Trevor's death you should consider this. It isnt up to the Telegraph to apologise to his family. Nor is it IMO the responsibility of anyone else yet to apologise to his family.
There is only one person who should apologise for the hurt and distress he has caused them and sadly Trevor is dead so he cannot, its too late.
Just as Marles did, Trevor obviously took the law into his own hands as many of the hunting fraternity will no doubt also do in the future. He shouldnt have been near the gyrocopter and should have left any 'confrontation', to those not daft enough to risk their own lives. Whatever the outcome he died because of his own stupidity. Sadly, that doesnt make it any less sad and distressing for all involved.

One thing is for sure. The 'sport', that many of you on both sides get so angry and nasty over really isnt worth the loss of life. Both sides are to blame yet are simply not prepared to see it and throw accusations at the other.

A pathetic situation and Trevor died and left his loved ones for pathetic reasons. Stupidity killed him, he didnt die "doing something he loved", as many would have us believe!

YOU ABSOLUTE pathetic low life.

A man has been KILLED.

I cant write what I need to say, I will get thrown off.

You DISGUST me with your ignorance.

 

[Scratchline]

[/quote]YOU ABSOLUTE pathetic low life.

A man has been KILLED.

I cant write what I need to say, I will get thrown off.

You DISGUST me with your ignorance. [/quote]

Not really sure where you find any ignorance in my words. I think it was a pretty well thought out post and a fair assesment of the situation, nothing for you to loose your head over.
So stop stamping your little feet, stop shouting and refrain from name-calling. If you are not adult enough for adult topics go back to bebo!

 

[MontyandZoom]

How can you not see how upsetting your attitude is?! Nobody is 'stamping their little feet'. I find it remarkable how heartless you are, and before you come back with the usual 'you are the heartless one for killing foxes etc' I have never been hunting in that sense. Think about how you would feel if a member of your family had died confronting a motorist that subsequently ran him over. Do you think you would say 'he should have left any 'confrontation', to those not daft enough to risk their own lives' and 'he died because of his own stupidity'. I VERY much doubt it.

 

[majicmoment]

YOU ABSOLUTE pathetic low life.

A man has been KILLED.

I cant write what I need to say, I will get thrown off.

You DISGUST me with your ignorance. [/quote]

Not really sure where you find any ignorance in my words. I think it was a pretty well thought out post and a fair assesment of the situation, nothing for you to loose your head over.
So stop stamping your little feet, stop shouting and refrain from name-calling. If you are not adult enough for adult topics go back to bebo! [/quote]

You are ignorant in your assumption and lack of knowledge in what happened to Trevor and the circumstances surrounding his death, who was involved etc. You are also ignorant in your assumption of knowing exactly how Trevor died.

I discuss this topic for a living, and know more about this case than the majority of people.

NOTHING is black and white. Your comment, that Trevor should apologise, is offensive and ignorant at best. You do not know what happened, nor who was involved. It is for the courts to decide what happened, and the truth, including connected parties and background to this case, will come out then. Sitting behind a message board saying, however subtly, that this poor man deserved to die, is vile.

Your antagonistic views have made me sick to the stomach.

This case has little to do with the hunting argument, and allot to do with a devastated family and community. Whatever your belief, understanding, or knowledge, passing ignorant comment and unjust opinion based on your clearly small minded views on hunting just goes to prove that, like the majority of antis, you consistently fail to see the bigger picture.

I am sure justice will come for Trevor and his family. I am also sure that the persons responsible are questioning, like the hunting community, whether an ordinary, good hunting man was killed over an issue as irrelevant as whether one chases foxes or not, and whether that issue [the hunting one] was really worth this anguish and grief.

One thing is for certain, Trevor's tragic death will not be in vain, and the sense of community and strong beleif in whats right, proper and good has never been stronger in the hunting community.