Tricky stubborn pony, advice please

book_lover

book_lover

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Hello all, I have only posted a handful of times, but hoping someone can help again. Hopefully this is the right place, my daughter not really a 'new rider' nor me (although I am recently returned and getting on happily with a lovely affectionate gentle giant boy who is mostly straightforward).

My daughter has been riding 3 and a half years now, she got her first pony (on loan) beginning of this year and we ended up having to send him home, sadly. I think I asked here about him, too. He bucked and rein snatched constantly and eventually started rearing. We had all the checks done, lessons with an instructor you name it. But the rearing was the deal breaker there. He was a dartmoor hill pony. We then (much more carefully this time) searched for a better choice, and settled on a welsh D 8 year old mare, who was very receptive, forward going (but not overly so), responding to voice commands etc. She was great for weeks, did everything asked of her. Then she suddenly started bucking (after 10 days off). I tried not to panic, couldn't believe it was happening again. My daughter is just 9, but she is a good little rider. Everyone who has seen her agreed it was a respect issue (saddle recently fitted, recently vetted etc) so we did a load of ground work (including the first two parelli games, lungeing, L leading her and getting her to halt etc.) They slowly started riding and she came good again. No more bucking any more. A couple of good weeks and we have a new problem. She has suddenly become lazy, reluctant to move forward... started yesterday (she was warmed up then we had to wait for a while to use the jumps) and by the time we got going again, she had decided "not today". She planted her feet and refused to go for my daughter. The livery daughter got on her and gave her three smacks on bum with crop and she was off again. L did the same and it seemed to work. But the problem was there this evening again. L is now relying on crop too much and lots of kicking and crop only gets her moving forward reluctantly.. but every time she went over a (very small) jump she slowed down for the jump and stepped over it. We kept going because we've been taught to not stop til you get a good result of some kind, but she just ended up sweaty and tired. We didn't really get the good result. L is trying all to get her moving - crop, leg, voice, body..... she just doesn't want to jump, mostly.

Annoyingly we can't get a lesson for 2-3 weeks as we missed out on all the slots this week at our place... can anyone help. It's hard for a 9 year old to be assertive but she is really trying, but kicking and crop seem to be losing their power. L's riding may not be perfect but I don't think she is confusing her pony - pony knows what is being asked of her. I have taken it quite badly tonight because bad day at work and the pony time is meant to be our relaxation. May have had a few tears in front of the others - but it's embarrassing too, and we can't get an instructor as often as we'd like (even if we could afford masses of private tuition!). Please help...
 
It sounds as if you used the arena yesterday, warmed up then did some jumping or at least tried to then she said no thanks, someone else got on got her going then she was ok if a little reluctant. today much the same, in arena lots of kicking and hitting, pony saying no, then asking her to jump again which she then just walked over.
Does she do anything other than go in the arena and school then jump, she sounds rather bored and fed up with jumping, a 9 year old is not going to be experienced enough to improve a pony without plenty of guidance, having another child getting on and hitting her is not the way to show your daughter a good example or likely to help the pony enjoy her work, I would want to be getting out on little hacks, encouraging the pony to go forward and look for a decent instructor who will look at the whole picture, it may mean going off the yard to find someone if they cannot offer what you need when you need it.
 
sorry but an 8yr old welsh D for a 9yr old child is unlikely to be a match made in heaven and then giving the horse 10 days off and being surprised it bucked.

I would suggest your daughter is over horsed
 
thank you so much, be positive.

When the bucking started, we took it very seriously and really mixed it up with her - ground work around the yard, or in the school, lungeing (in the school) and hacking. I have been wondering if she was bored. The hacking is amazing around us. Laura loves jumping so when in the school she wants to jump... I have to get L to slow down sometimes. Yet the pony was happy (or at least not reluctant) doing a lot of this with hacking too for 2-3 months before we saw any problems.

Having said that, the bad bucking came in on a hack, strangely enough. Then continued in the school. (this was after we'd got back from holidays, so she was out of work for 10 days). The pony is ridden v regularly. In her last home, she was ridden only by an adult rider so she is less used to children. But like I said, she can be so amazing, absolutely amazing a lot of the time. It just feels like a brick wall at the moment.

Interesting that you say this about the crop... opinion is so divided on this. The daughter at the livery is 16, a good rider, very assertive and her pony is incredibly well behaved (and loved) - she takes no nonsense. I don't really know how much is too much leg, how much is too much crop. But one thing multiple instructors have taught L (on different ponies) is that you have to get them moving forward and you can't tolerate disobedience. So, if you don't agree with smacking on the bum with the crop, it's hard to know what alternative to take...

I think you might be right about going off yard and we may hopefully get a trailer later this month.
 
twiggy thank you for your honest opinion but the pony has been fantastic for my daughter most of the time - we got through the bucking problem and no sign of that returning, but we have a new trick to deal with now. Lots of people on the yard think she is a good pony for my daughter but obviously the last two days have me upset and I am looking for help and perhaps some reassurance that we can work through this...
 
Also, it is normal to expect bucking after 10 days off then? do you mean for welsh D's in particular, or do you mean any horse?
 
book_lover said:
Also, it is normal to expect bucking after 10 days off then?
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if the horse is in regular work she will be fit, 10 days off will mean that she is full of energy at that point then bucking is fairly likely, 8yrs is young and mares are more likely to test the boundaries-your daughter is young too and that is where it may not be a perfect match
 
ah, ok. That does make sense. In terms of the match - I promise you would have thought the match was perfect for the first 3 months. Yes, she's a Welsh and she can test sometimes, but this is new. After the bucking, lots of ground work really got her respecting Laura... perhaps we need to go back to that. Today just felt like a disaster, in hindsight we should have given up but so drilled into me that we need to persevere and end on a good note. I just don't really understand when, when things were going so so well they would suddenly take such a turn.
 
It sounds as if the pony is generally suitable but jumping too much will become boring for the pony especially if the jumping is rather repetitive and lacking interest in content, Laura needs to understand that while she may love jumping it needs to be limited and kept interesting for the pony, jumping the same fence over and over is not interesting and will make even a good pony fed up.

Your instructors sound as if they are on the right lines, the pony must go when asked, disobedience is not acceptable but the questions need to be clearly asked, not resorting to the whip when it fails to respond, there is a saying we use, " if the horse doesn't answer the question has the question been asked correctly?" the chances are at 9 your daughter is not yet skilled enough to ask quietly so the instructor sees a pony not responding so the whip gets used rather than finding another way to ask the question. There is a fine line between letting a pony get away with being disobedient and becoming a bit of a bully, not saying your daughter is a bully, but it is an easy way to fall into if they see it happening around them.
I am not saying never use a whip but maybe looking for a trainer who is not going to resort to it as much as yours seem to, there are many techniques to get a pony going, the main one being to keep them really interested and enjoying the work.

I think the bucking incident was probably just her expressing herself after time off, I would put it behind you and move on, it sounds as if that has resolved but the pony has now shut down a little, finding a balance can be difficult especially when a child is riding.
 
thank you, be positive. you really do live up to your name. I think it's actually really helpful for me to come here and speak to people I don't know about it, because people I do know might have expectations that I do something their way, and actually everyone's advice is different. My husband said "in that case why are you asking in a forum??". Yes I really don't want L to be a bully either.

I'm glad you've said it might be boredom, because I was wondering that too. Do you have any ideas as well as the hacking to mix things up for them a bit more?

Also, can you give me your opinion on how, if a pony refuses to move forward, should you insist that they do so without being over harsh?

It wasn't the trainer that taught the crop use to L, but since she has picked the crop up it has given her more respect with the pony, so she has come to over use it I think. I would take it off her but I think pony is clever and will know and may be even more stubborn...
 
It depends on your facilities, mine hack out, sometimes a short ride out then school, sometimes the other way round, we ride in the fields while it is not muddy, sometimes just mooching, sometimes schooling, sometimes having a jump.
In the school they do work on different things, lots of transitions, use the letters to do something at every single letter, put poles on the ground to go over, they can be in a row, on a circle, on the long side, diagonal or placed randomly they can also be ridden round to help get a perfect circle or square. Poles can also be raised on one side or both, this can help with accuracy, make the rider really concentrate on placing the pony correctly, which all helps with the jumping while keeping things more interesting for both rider and pony.

You can set up tasks, the type of thing you can do with ground work, walking over strange things, be careful to make sure it is safe, bending poles, start to do turns on the forehand, a little rein back, schooling is what you make it, endless circles are boring but trying to do 6 transitions on one circle is a challenge.
It may be a good idea for Laura to start a diary or planner, have some clear aims, keep a record of what has gone well, would joining the PC be an option?
 
great facilities, large school (outdoor) and great hacking... like the idea of doing a bit of both (school and hack), some great ideas here, thanks. Laura was going to start a wee blog actually but never found the time... maybe a diary would be easier. PC might be an option but it's quite a distance, for a school night. Would PC be ok with a pony who might prove to be reluctant in with the others?
 
I have just looked at the video, the pony seems very sweet but is extremely big for Laura, her legs will be barely be below the saddle flaps and hardly felt when she uses them, I would go back a step, use the exercises given above, and get the pony listening to a more subtle aid, she can still do some jumping but if she isn't listening without being hit it will only get worse as the pony resents it and starts to rebel. The jumping lesson was ok in what I saw but not really testing rider or pony, although I couldn't hear what was said, having a little more structure would be beneficial to help Laura really stay in control rather than being taken round the turns, at this level it needs to be fun but control is important and from what I saw it was just two jumps one out of trot, with a randomly placed pole before it, then the second one out of canter which was rather wobbly on approach and landing, I would want to see more complexity, no reason for anything higher but more challenging in what is expected, they look capable of more and some pushing without going too far can really benefit both rider and pony.
PC would be something that should help her deal with others, if that is an issue that is something else to start working on, maybe it would be something to aim for next spring, PC camp could be perfect for next summer if they are going well.
 
thank you :)

dealing with others isn't an issue no (just my levels of embarrassment should she start planting her feet, or whether that causes problems for other people trying to ride in the same space).

yes, steering can be a problem for L. I think some weaving games around cones etc? you have given me a lot of ideas - thank you!
 
Hi Op. . agree with couple other posters.. Pony is on the large side and seems slightly strong for your daughter however with the right regular instruction you can only help them improve. I'm a mum as well of a capable 7 yr old rider who's new pony is with us a wet day. Mini has a super coach and I swear a varied workload is necessary to prevent pony from becoming sour. For arguments sake last week mini had two arena Sessions working on dressage test, then a hack and a day practising banks etc and another day having a good blow out in gallop in the fields having fun. Mix it up... Even hack out before your daughter does arena work could help. :)
Also just a suggestion but you could ask instructor to start to work on small grids etc rather than just tiny individual fences ... Makes the rider / pony concentrate that bit more... Done the right way grids can be very confidence giving once set up to ideal striding.
 
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Hacking more than schooling will probably help, some horses just don't like some activities or become sour quickly. Does she hack in company and all varied paces etc. In all honesty some stubborn ponies don't really like work especially in their horsey equivalent of 'teens', I have a 7yo haflinger and she can be really intensely stubborn, I am 28 and it can be a bit much, no way a child could deal with her day to day. 6-8 can often be stroppy teenage years for ponies. Mine has started to mellow a lot but it has been a tough ride.

I imagine this pony is quite big for your daughter, I think if you are going to persevere I'd get an adult riding her regularly.

My grumpy one really benefits from a friend of mine hacking her out as it sways the balance of schooling to hacking, like say 4 or 5 hacks to one schooling session is about what she finds ok, I do more sometimes but I don't always get good work as a result of more schooling!
 
At nine your daughter does not need her mother being embarassed when her pony plants! Make time in the school fun for them both. Set up some handy pony type stuff, hanging wahing on a line, bending poles while balancing a bean bag on your hat, posting a letter, mounting from the "wrong" side, etc etc. Riding is a hobby as well as a sport. :)
 
Sounds like my mare who plants in the school. I've had two years of frustrating battles with her. I've had several instructors who go by the same school of thought: get after the naughty lazy pony.
It hasn't worked, it just puts us in conflict and I feel awful for being so harsh with her. I'm now trying a different style of instructor; very fluffy bunny but it seems to be working.
Please ensure you praise the pony at least as much, if not more than you punish. Always try to find some good in what they do and recognise it, set them up for success. I'm finding this is improving willingness.
To get them moving if they plant try flicking the reins over the neck (cowboy style). It doesn't need to be hard, but seems to work. Sit tall, hands up, keep your energy levels up and keep things interesting for the horse. Don't keep doing endless laps of the school, lots of changes of the rein and changes of pace.
Be very careful not to nag, this type of pony encourages you to keep on at them all the time.
The pony needs to learn she gets a nice quiet life if she does as asked so make sure your daughter is siting very quietly when the pony is behaving.
Please try to avoid use of the crop if possible, I learnt over use of the crop when I was young and it becomes 'normal' to the rider after a while....then you feel really bad when you realise what you are doing to the horse. Best to learn lots of techniques which can be used before you have to resort to the whip.
Good luck.
 
From the ridden video I would say pony may be getting mixed messages - the rising trot seems balamce dependent on the reins which gives an inconsistent contact and can jab pony in the mouth. Children always need to be made aware that there is a mouth on the end of the reins and their body needs to balance independently - have someone hold pony in halt and get L to let go of the reins and practise rising, do the same in walk. Then when that is done well give the reins back and try the same exercise with reins, then bring in trot.
Another small thing to me is corners - L is doing what many people do: pony won't go in the corner so pulls outside rein. She needs to open her inside hand and put inside leg pressure - so strong nudges to ask for inside bend and push into the corner. It seems as though pony is going around with L on top rather than L directing.
Find an instructor that will give you a walk lesson. Ask her to work on position and correct use of aids, work on getting into corners, on circles, on accuracy in changing rein. This only needs to be a half hour but can be very helpful. Pony will learn that L is in charge and can direct her well which should hopefully help in the other paces.
You could also teach rein back - start on the ground and then work up to it (plenty of good vids online) so that if pony plants, ask for rein back and then walk forwards, rein back and walk forwards. Then praise evrytime pony does what you ask. Halt to walk 'good pony!' walk to halt 'good pony'. If you or L get tense, stop and breathe and relax and try again :-)
As someone else said, don't start nagging, and crop use should be minimal and only used once at a time - nudge, kick, kick, crop. Then praise movement. Always praise good behaviour, and if you have a bad day pick something else to end on a good note. Pony being sticky - stop what you are doing and ride a transition at every marker. Then end. Good note doesn't have to be what you are currently doing. :-)
Maybe find a new instructor, a freelance will come to you. Pony ub is good, but be wary of other kids/parents 'fixes' as everyone has a different view. I had a professional kicker and bronco and that was fine at PC you just have to let them know and they will accomodate it (so he was always at the back and given plenty of space)
You are asking for help which is good and you want to help the pony which is good. So good luck :-)
 
Smashing, smashing pony. But way too big for your daughter though - she's having to rely on the whip because she simply can't get her legs on it, and is unbalanced riding her. The rider being unbalanced will make the pony reluctant to jump, either for lack of confidence, or in fact to look after the jockey. More likely the former though.

Belting an animal to get it to do whay we want is never great....
 
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Looks like a lovely pony that seems to be doing her best to sort the signals she's given out. Since she's not getting consistent commands she probably sometimes takes matters into her own hooves. I agree with what has been said - because of her size (a little on the big side for a nine year old) she's not getting the correct leg signals, and I don't personally think a young child should be actively relying on a whip to get the pony going or listening - if it continues for too long the pony could start ignoring the whip as well, and then where would you be! I also think they could use some dressage work before focusing on jumping, although I very much understand jumping can be more fun! :-) If your daughter wants to continue with the pony though, I think regular lessons focusing on balance and softer signals, as well as varied work to keep pony interested would be the way to go. Good luck!

Wanted to add that your daughter seems like a positive rider. It's not always easy when your legs are a little short for the horse you're on - I'm sure we've all been there at some point! It's a case of little adjustments, really. Balance helps immensely. If the pony is nice in every other way, I wouldn't be giving up yet!
 
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thanks so much all.

Showpony: I like the idea of grids, and more support for the idea of varied working. Will try these.

mandwhy: yes it may be stroppy teenage stuff. She seems lovely and happy and willing one day, grumpy and moody the next. Perhaps we have not been hacking enough. Partly because L wants to go to her first little show this year (bless her heart she has waited years for this), so we are planning to go to one, but one which is incredibly laid back, I can get in the arena if necessary etc. After everything we went through with the first pony, L needs to not get down/depressed about a lack of progress with this pony. I think we were placing too much emphasis on "getting ready" for the first show, hence too much jumping in the school... am now inclined to place less importance on "readiness" and just see what happens (we will go to one of the locations for a trial run before the big day). So - more hacking, more hacking routes... I think you're right and this will help pony. I'm afraid that I'm a bit too heavy for B right now - she's 14.1 and chunky but even so, at nearly 13 stone - compare that with my 9 year old! I have been on her about a month ago, when she was behaving well for Laura, I could hardly get her to move! I think she felt I was weighing her right down poor love. I am losing weight as we speak :D so I will try again soon.

YorksG - I know, I am not embarrassed normally (it's a small livery and I'm v good friends with everyone there) but there is a new-ish person there with 3 big fancy horses, she is nice but perfect and it always seems to be in front of her, then we have L flapping and making lots of noise, and I do just get embarrassed :0 work stress is not helping at the moment and this morning when I didn't wake up feeling any less tearful I realised that I am probably suffering stress (facing redundancy and job hunting not going so well), and this is bound to be impacting how much of a big deal I am making. I do try to not let this stuff affect my daughter of course, but it's not always easy. I agree, and I am heartbroken that the first ride on my lovely boy last night (after he lost a shoe a few days ago) was interrupted because I'm having to deal with L's problems (I always put her first, after all she is at the start of her riding career, I'm more at the happy hacking side of it). I like your idea for some games and will try those.

little_critter, thank you for reminding me that L needs to praise, every time. Consistency is hard for a 9 yo. This naturally isn't helping. Good idea with flicking reins too.

Kylara, thanks for looking at the video and yes I agree. She is a good rider, promise - but still just 9yo, and it would be ideal for her to have more regular riding lessons but it's a budget thing too. Will put these ideas into practice. Since that video (since the bucking which happened after this) she has been much softer on the reins, (almost to a fault - flappy!) as we figured this was important for B. Great ideas. And like the idea of ending on a good note doing something else. I AM a bit worried about other parents at PC (see earlier stuff about being embarrassed!!). But this might also help to mix it up for L?

Folks, do you think with pony being sour/sticky we should have a couple of days off, or keep going? We can hack tonight anyway and then tomorrow we can't ride, the weekend is going to be one day only... let me know what you think. We will also continue with ground work to regain respect.

thanks again.
 
Can't offer any advice as it's all been said but just wanted to share with you that up until this year we had the most wonderful cob on loan. My daughter and I shared her and she was perfect for me, I utterly adored.

Daughter started having some problems getting her going and then the horse started taking control of speed a little.

A very kindly instructor took daughter to one side and explained that the horse simply couldn't 'hear' her as her legs barely came below the saddle flaps. Daughter was doing her very best but the horse was just too big for her to ride effectively. Very sadly, I had to admit that she was right and we now own a wonderful welsh x pony who is a much better fit size wise and they are having a great time together.

A kind temperament is so important but it isn't the only consideration when choosing a suitable mount for a child unfortunately. :)

x
 
sorry, just seen other posts.

anymay: I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I'm not quite sure what to do with your post, as I imagine your advice is to sell on and get a smaller pony (as you haven't given any other ideas). I've had lots and lots of opinions on this pony, and was assured they were a great match. I know she's on the bigger side, but despite my asking for help, I think this is something we can work through. She has been amazing for my daughter a LOT of the time.

MargotC: thanks, yes the pony is a cracker. Typical Welsh D, though - we were warned that stubbornness would show up at some point and that this would be when her size would be a challenge for L... L no WAY wants to give up. This is small fries compared to what she went through on a much smaller pony. He totally blew her confidence, Becky has practically tripled her confidence (despite the current issues). We won't be giving up :)

Prince33Sp4rkle, I don't know - she looks sound and farrier trimmed her hooves yesterday and didn't note anything. But I will keep a close eye, thanks.
 
Just want to add, imo this pony is too big and well built for your child at this stage and I think smacking her will just wind her up. My kids are taught to back up an ignored aid with a tap, not a smack. I think you need to go back a few stages and build confidence of pony and rider.
 
thanks southern comfort, I'm sorry your daughter had to switch ponies, but glad it worked out for you. I would have to see things getting a hell of a lot worse than this before even considering going down that road, we already switched once and it is incredibly distressing and blew her confidence massively. This pony makes her confidence soar, so I think we need to persevere and get through her bad patches.
 
Most ponies at PC will have problems and there will be only a couple of "perfect" ones. You get a fair few back seat riders who aren't particularly horsey as well but they will be supportive :-)
I'm sure you could find a freelance who does block booking discounts or maybe ask if they would consider it? I do blocks of 10 with either a 10‰ discount on every lesson or the 10th lesson free. I also just have to have them booked in the diary and happy to do pay as you go as well as up front, so I'm sure there would be someone offering a similar deal near you!
She is small so really has to work on her legs (looks a bit like me on anything 17hh+!). Maybe a lunge lesson would help her too.
I would suggest only ever one day off if you usually ride every day as that is her routine and she is young and fit and needs exercise! But that you could bring in in hand walking as well. Just go for a nice walk with her for a while, enjoyable for L and pony and good for bonding and manners :)
You want to find a good instructor who will give you homework and also understand the problems, isn't afraid to say the good as well as the bad and someone you like and also like their way of riding/teaching :)
Contact is important for youngsters, but being taught how much is more so. If in doubt don't jab instead grab mane. A good teacher will help her gain control over her body and that will help her gain control when on pony :) without contact pony will be feeling insecure and may lack confidence, but without actually being there and watching it is hard to fix, hence local instructor :) (I don't know where you are based so can't suggest anyone, but the BHS website has a find an instructor search function that might be usefull :) )
 
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