tried the tom thumb bit.............

Two points here: firstly, this isn't about cross-country or hunting; it's about show-jumping, which I'm sure you will agree requires a greater degree of finesse and collection, and good seat-control can pay dividends.

Secondly, about the severity of bits: what you've said about bits being no harsher than the hands that use them (isn't that a Monty Roberts quote?) is more-or-less what I'm arguing, but whilst you argue that you have very light hands (and I am happy for you) the concern here is that this thread seems to be about 'getting control now', and that a snaffle hasn't established that control so perhaps more severe bit will? But here's my concern: apply 2lb of pressure on a snaffle and it's 2lb of pressure on the bars/tongue. Apply 2lb of pressure on a pelham with 2" levers and (depending on precisely how it's set up) you're actually exerting around 5lbs of pressure. This may end up as 3lb on the bars, 1lb on the poll and 1lb on the curb, or any similar division of that labour (with the majority going to the bars since these act as the fulcrum). Apply 2lb of pressure on a Tom Thumb bit with 4" levers and you're exerting close to 10lb of pressure, which again, depending on the bit set-up, may divide into 6lb bars/4lb poll or whatever. This can fool the rider into thinking that they're riding with a very light touch, but they could actually be exerting the same, or even far more force than they would in a milder bit. Essentially then all that's happened is that the bit has made it far easier for the rider to haul on the horse's mouth without ever appearing to do so, and if the rider uses the bit as their primary 'control' device, this can work out very badly for the horse.
 
Forgive me, I should have included sj as well - but Im sure you will agree that a good degree of control is needed. And also, that unless one is schooling in the arena, or has a horse with the concentration of Einstein, they would not be able to rely on just their seat to slow or sop the horse - horses get excited at competions, it happens. I wouldnt want to risk not having effective brakes in a place where my horse could cause injury to others is he was out of control - beleive me, I have been there with a pony I was competing for someone, and who's bit I was not allowed to change.
Nowhere have I said I have light hands
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I'm sure theyre as heavy as the next person's
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And I have quoted nobody - am not a MR fan and if he does lay claim to that philosophy then I am sure there are a great many people who could contest it - the phrase has been around for as long as I can remember.
 
I don't think it's possible to rely just on seat-control when they're all fired up, but I guess I'm advocating lots of flat-work/seat-control - heck, even outright dressage lessons first (since I'm under the impression that there's is no particular timeframe) and thinking about changing bits second. Good seat-control can really only help, but I do think that harsh bitting, especially if it is compensating for weak seat-control, could actually hinder and potentially even cause other problems along the way.

Randomly, I'm going to apologise for suggesting you have light hands
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. I totally take that back, and if it helps I'm sure you have terrible hands
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(jk). Likewise I'm not a MR fan - I recall reading that in his Horse Whisperer book and snorting at the implication that he'd thought it up himself. (I was supposed to be reading it without bias - know thy enemy and all that - but it didn't turn out so well.)
 
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Apply 2lb of pressure on a Tom Thumb bit with 4" levers

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Tom thumbs have nowhere near 4" levers. My tom thumbs shanks are fractionally longer than the diameter of my horses loose ring snaffle, so actually do not offer as much leverage as say a continental (bubble) gag or a pelham. However, they are a little bit more direct as they have a smaller diameter ring attached to the mothpiece so any movement reachs the mouth in a more direct manner. I hate continental gags with a passion, as I feel they are too widely used and encourage a horse to go around with its head in the air, and very rarely allow them to soften as the action is so woolly!

Also, putting an elevator bit such a a tom thumb or a gag on a horse and then adding a martingale is counterproductive. If your horse throws it head up, dont use an elevator bit. Sortening martingales beyond the "correct" length (so it reachs the horses gullet/withers when relaxed) is unnecessary in ANY circumstances.

To the OP, have you though of trying a universal? With a curb strap they have the action of a mild pelham, and encourage the horse to carry themselves in a softer outline but slightly uphill. Worth a try?
 
Odd. I was under the impression that you can buy Tom Thumbs with varying lever lengths. Whilst I hope that many won't be as drastic as 4", the example given was just that - an example, and the point was to emphasise that lever-length has a huge impact on how much pressure is created.
 
Yep I agthered you were just getting your point across
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However, I was just pointing out the tom thumbs I have come across (and that is a few!) have all been of similar dimensions to mine. The tom thumbs being referred to should never be confused with the american curb tom thumb which does indeed come in varying lengths
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[ QUOTE ]
Odd. I was under the impression that you can buy Tom Thumbs with varying lever lengths. Whilst I hope that many won't be as drastic as 4", the example given was just that - an example, and the point was to emphasise that lever-length has a huge impact on how much pressure is created.

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I think you might be thinking of the US tom thumb with is like this...

tom%20thumb%20snaffle.jpg


As opposed to the UK tom thumb, which is like this (and I use)

loztomthumb.jpg


Then again, I might be wrong
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