Trigger stacking in horses

[Caol Ila]

I started thinking about this when a friend fell off the other day. They were cantering over a ground pole, and her horse was getting increasingly wound up as they lapped around the arena at speed. When someone started a car, that pushed the horse over the edge. He spooked and bucked, and that was her on the deck.

That was also my entire ride yesterday (see post in weekend plans thread). We encountered quad bikes in the park early on in the day (he's frightened of quads because he was rounded up by them), but he was actually okay-ish about it and seemingly settled quickly once I got away from them. Then we had the scary smoky BBQ with lots of kids running around and screaming. Then we had the motorcycle racing on the A809. Then we had golf. He got subsequently more reactive and dramatic at each thing. And up until the BBQ, he'd been so calm and happy.

In my friend's case, she could have de-escalated by taking him to walk and trot. But when you're out there, two hours from home, you're just out there. You don't always know what you'll encounter or how your horse will react. I guess all you really can do is hope that with more mileage and experience, the horse's threshold for dealing with scary things and trust in you will increase. And maybe work on getting him used to golf.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: irrelevant

 

[SibeliusMB]

I guess all you really can do is hope that with more mileage and experience, the horse's threshold for dealing with scary things and trust in you will increase. And maybe work on getting him used to golf.

I found that a lot of good groundwork at home, and teaching the horse to think through a question with an object or obstacle is critical for those "away from home" situations. It's been game changing for my horse. He's found his brave and though he may still be insecure about the scary thing, he is so much more relaxed and willing. Groundwork plus lots of kind, supportive, patient support.

Whatever "it" is for the horse, just make sure you introduce it at home first. As Warwick Schiller says, "create a tool before you use a tool."

 

[Highmileagecob]

Totally agree, especially if you have a native. The first scary object puts them on high alert, which doesn't diminish, as they start looking for danger. My old nag was terrified of quad bikes (traveller background, probably rounded up with them) and then we met a local farmer moving his cattle with a quad down the lane that we were on. He had no option but to follow the quad as it slowly inched down the lane, and the farmer was talking to us as we proceeded. At the farm gate, the cattle turned in and the farmer got off the quad and came over and patted the horses. This totally diffused the situation and I never had a problem after that. It is difficult to prepare for everything you might meet - golf we have never mastered, sounds too much like a whip cracking, and pigs are a total no.

 

[sbloom]

I found that a lot of good groundwork at home, and teaching the horse to think through a question with an object or obstacle is critical for those "away from home" situations. It's been game changing for my horse. He's found his brave and though he may still be insecure about the scary thing, he is so much more relaxed and willing. Groundwork plus lots of kind, supportive, patient support.

Whatever "it" is for the horse, just make sure you introduce it at home first. As Warwick Schiller says, "create a tool before you use a tool."

100%.

I love the philosophy of Dan Wain, a rehab trainer and think it's strongly related to trigger stacking. Our horses have a residual "temperature" and it's our job to keep them as "cool" as possible, because boiling point means a physical (ie they get injured) or emotional/behavioural breakdown. Environment, health issues, tack that isn't right, training they don't understand...a million things contribute to your horse's temperature at any one time. Improve as many factors as you can so that you have as much headroom as possible to allow for the unexpected.

 

[smolmaus]

I like thinking about it the way Warwick Schiller explains it; too many rabbits in the tank. Me and a friend use it for ourselves too. Just too many damn rabbits today!!!

I do see more people seem to be trying to "teach relaxation" through groundwork patterns recently, as you say SibeliusMB. I like the theory myself but haven't tried to apply it yet in a stressful situation. Sadie will do the movements but it doesn't actually seem to relax her. I've also done the basics of "if you touch the scary thing or look at it calmly I'll give you a treat" but again, haven't had much chance to try that away from home yet.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I found that a lot of good groundwork at home, and teaching the horse to think through a question with an object or obstacle is critical for those "away from home" situations. It's been game changing for my horse. He's found his brave and though he may still be insecure about the scary thing, he is so much more relaxed and willing. Groundwork plus lots of kind, supportive, patient support.

Whatever "it" is for the horse, just make sure you introduce it at home first. As Warwick Schiller says, "create a tool before you use a tool."

This 100%. And then some.

It makes me laugh quietly now when the people that years ago laughed at me doing groundwork, in-hand work or general 'prep for life' are the same people now telling me how lucky I am to have a good hacking pony ? Don't get me wrong, he *is* a brilliant hacking pony as he happily hacks alone, in company, in the countryside, on roads and even over motorways and he does prefer hacking but there's less blind luck involved than they might think.

 

[Gloi]

If things start stressing my pony stopping and rooting in my treat pocket usually defuses it a lot. He has to stand still politely to get a treat and he normally soon forgets what was bothering him. The other day he was far more interested in what I might have for him than the 50 vintage motorbikes passing him.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I like thinking about it the way Warwick Schiller explains it; too many rabbits in the tank. Me and a friend use it for ourselves too. Just too many damn rabbits today!!!

I do see more people seem to be trying to "teach relaxation" through groundwork patterns recently, as you say SibeliusMB. I like the theory myself but haven't tried to apply it yet in a stressful situation. Sadie will do the movements but it doesn't actually seem to relax her. I've also done the basics of "if you touch the scary thing or look at it calmly I'll give you a treat" but again, haven't had much chance to try that away from home yet.

I also like the rabbit analogy. A yardmate and I both use it all the time now and so far I think we're the only two on the yard in on the joke.

I don't know if it's so much "teaching relaxation" as it is teaching the horse to think of a solution and build confidence. It's like helping them learn to control their reaction. For my horse, Sig, he can still be relatively insecure about approaching or walking past the scary thing, but after lots of patient groundwork, slowly building up the obstacles he has to navigate, he is much more likely to stand and observe the scary thing rather than spook. Or walk by it in control of himself with an attentive ear on it, versus scooting sideways. When I'm in the saddle I just keep the reins loose, keep my own breathing slow and calm, and give him the time he needs to look at it and consider it while I offer some calm words. None of that "snatching up the reins and squeezing/kicking them toward or past it because horses should just do what we want when we want it" robotic mentality.

Sig used to be petrified of the oversize exercise ball the barn at home had. We did a groundwork clinic, taught him some concepts, and by the end of that clinic he was willingtly walking up to and pushing the ball around slightly. I'd just do ground work with him once or twice a month, and he got to the point he'd push that ball all around the arena and had to drag him away from it when the session was over. Water trays/liverpools? Yeah, he sees one and goes immediately to stand on it and nap. I swear having him push that ball around once a month did more for his confidence and self control than anything else has. He's super reliable now despite his natural insecurity. Good groundwork works, period.

 

[ycbm]

I wish trigger stacking was more generally understood by owners with horses struggling with low grade pain that "only misbehaves when we are at a competition so he must be trying it on".
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I wish trigger stacking was more generally understood about by owners with horses struggling with low grade pain that "only misbehave when we are at a competition so he must be trying it on".
.

Yessss. This.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I personally think the natives are less likely to be distracted by ground work patterns when already on alert although they can help empty the worry cup a bit on the way up the trajectory. Click and treat, thus lowering the head, can also help.

for the quad fear CI have you tried the 'following the scary thing' technique? I am rather proud of the fact that I have my Exmoor coping with very scary slurry tank - tractor combo and quad + trailers using this method (thanks to a couple of tame farmers). I also learned on a podcast that this was the way they taught horses to boldly charge in battle etc. I now need to find a motobike rider as he had a big fright with them when he was younger.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

My young native isn't that distracted by groundwork stuff when something exciting or scary has happened but is very easily distracted by my hand going into my pocket incase a treat is going to appear.

I did a tiny bit of clicker training just teaching him to stand politely and to target whatever I point at so when we go walking in hand I point at random stuff and he happily goes to investigate it. It makes odd things on verges into a fun game rather than something to be scared of and he did his standing politely while we met our first ever tractor which also had a massive trailer rattling along on the back he was worried but his need for tasty treats won out and he stood perfectly.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I personally think the natives are less likely to be distracted by ground work patterns when already on alert although they can help empty the worry cup a bit on the way up the trajectory. Click and treat, thus lowering the head, can also help.

for the quad fear CI have you tried the 'following the scary thing' technique? I am rather proud of the fact that I have my Exmoor coping with very scary slurry tank - tractor combo and quad + trailers using this method (thanks to a couple of tame farmers). I also learned on a podcast that this was the way they taught horses to boldly charge in battle etc. I now need to find a motobike rider as he had a big fright with them when he was younger.

Yes yes yes!
This is what I do when backing or training on with anything, works v well (usually!) particularly with the natives.
B Fuzzy completely got over pheasants her 1st summer with me (never seen one before) by being asked to follow, then chase it/them down and ended up at her 1st RC camp cantering across a field margin with pheasants lifting all over the place. Same with deer, cycles, prams, joggers etc etc.
She's always been pretty good with farm machinery and the like, but a previous one was helped enough by this to be able to stick his head in a tractor bucket etc or follow it down the lanes happily.
DH will bring motorbikes to the yard if required, tho we have no need as b also ok after a 2 session training on them.

CI, hope some follow/chase training can help x

 

[sbloom]

I wish trigger stacking was more generally understood by owners with horses struggling with low grade pain that "only misbehaves when we are at a competition so he must be trying it on".
.

"Can't be saddle as he only does it in the school"

 

[bouncing_ball]

I started thinking about this when a friend fell off the other day. They were cantering over a ground pole, and her horse was getting increasingly wound up as they lapped around the arena at speed. When someone started a car, that pushed the horse over the edge. He spooked and bucked, and that was her on the deck.

That was also my entire ride yesterday (see post in weekend plans thread). We encountered quad bikes in the park early on in the day (he's frightened of quads because he was rounded up by them), but he was actually okay-ish about it and seemingly settled quickly once I got away from them. Then we had the scary smoky BBQ with lots of kids running around and screaming. Then we had the motorcycle racing on the A809. Then we had golf. He got subsequently more reactive and dramatic at each thing. And up until the BBQ, he'd been so calm and happy.

In my friend's case, she could have de-escalated by taking him to walk and trot. But when you're out there, two hours from home, you're just out there. You don't always know what you'll encounter or how your horse will react. I guess all you really can do is hope that with more mileage and experience, the horse's threshold for dealing with scary things and trust in you will increase. And maybe work on getting him used to golf.

I guess you could get off and walk or hand graze, or halt on board and offer some treats. With the idea of promoting relaxation. Or singing out loud works. Idea being to lower the rabbit / stress threshold back down.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I wish trigger stacking was more generally understood by owners with horses struggling with low grade pain that "only misbehaves when we are at a competition so he must be trying it on".
.

I had a horse for three years, where we were constantly chasing issues round his body, and little was really diagnosed, but he was never right. A lot of heartbreak, time and money was spent trying to diagnosed and rehab various things/ His thresholds were totally different to other horses that I have had, and he had much lower tolerance. I did listen to him, but I do also understand more now.

 

[Horseysheepy]

The pheasant and tractor chasing idea is a brilliant idea! If something scary goes past me and a horse on a hack, as long as horse hasn't totally gone crazy, I say
" come on let's get it"! And push them into a trot as if to run after it and scare it away!!!. Horse gets a great ego boost in return!.
I used the chasing method once on a young gelding, to get him used to behaving in fields of sheep at home by leading him amongst them. He soon learnt that they are scared and move away quite hurriedly from him, he's the boss lol!
The system bit me in the bottom though, when I leant down to unfasten a gate with some typical baling twine knot that wouldn't undo. In the meantime, young horse was getting a bit rattled next to me as a 30 head flock of ewes crowded behind us thinking they were being let into a fresh field of yummy grass!!! I had to jump up and wavey arms towards them whilst the gelding looked slightly bemused at the end of the rope!!.

 

[pistolpete]

I love this so much. The understanding of behaviour is such a revelation. Horses aren’t devious or plotting they are just reactive. Thy can learn how to control their emotions when taught well. It’s the biggest gift we can give them

 

[HashRouge]

I imagine that the rider's reaction also plays a part too. I.e. if the horse spooks and the rider gets worried and stays worried, that will contribute to the horse's reactions. It may even be that the rider thinks they've relaxed but actually they are tensed up/ holding the horse too tightly.

This is why I think there is no shame in getting off/ turning round/ taking a different route/ slowing down/ accepting that it's just not happening today. Sometimes it is just about managing the situation safely - riding isn't a battle between horse and rider.

 

[Red-1]

I find that simply being still and allowing them time to process is what is missing in a lot of cases.

Mine isn't allowed to spin or run off, but standing still is fine. He is a lovely horse but not the bravest, so we have worked a lot. Firstly they have to be obedient, as in understand the aids, not safe out there if they aren't. This is taught in a non pressure place though.

Mine was, at one point, worried about some sheep on the ride. he would always go past, but with that kind of walk where it is like someone has stuffed a brush handle up their backside. If he had then walked it off, I wouldn't have worried too much about it, as after time the amount of time he would be worried would have diminished and the anxiety would have naturally extinguished. The worry, however, was enough that he would then worry about other stuff, like the bag or whatever.

I sorted it by walking to that place and standing still before we got to the point where he would worry. When he was board, I allowed a few more steps and stopped again. We proceeded up the road, he was allowed to stand still until board. Boredom is the opposite of worried. That time, we took over 20 minutes to do 50 yards of road. I have taken longer with other horses, but this one hasn't had any particular issues in his training, so less worry to work on.

He has never looked at the sheep since. And we never did exactly look at them, just stayed in that zone until it was boring.

He had an issue with bins. I didn't let him stop and sniff or anything, but he was allowed to go slowly or even stop. I steered him a wide path, but that was me steering it, not him shying.

When we got home, we did have a play with our own bin. I dismounted so we could examine it together, I think dismounted is often better for this. The bin lid was opened and closed, the bin dragged next to him. Then, I re-mounted and we did the same. I have a video of us taking the bin for a walk, from his back. Bins no longer a problem, but the same could have been achieved by waiting it out, I think.

For cow training, we started by watching for a while from a safe distance. Then, when he was relaxed, we did a bit of schooling where he would have to pay attention to me, then, when that was OK, the cows were released so we could follow them around and push them. He now loves cow working. Thinks it is fun, is proud that he can work them.

I find people are prepared to force them close, which is not really effective as a long term confidence building solution, and a lot more effort, but seem unwilling to simply wait it out or set the situation up for success.

When I get a horse, usually the first day I 'ride' for an hour. Oftentimes, it is simply a lesson in mounting. Not many horses seem to come trained to be relaxed and understand being moved around the arena, from both sides, to line up to a mounting block, to wait while I faff, etc etc. Usually the first ride is all about that! People have said that they don't know how I can be bothered, but done properly it is a lesson that sticks and mounting is easy.

I do wonder why it is that people can't give time to let them work it out. I think it was a visiting trainer (can't remember exactly who) that explained it that, by letting them have time to work it out, you give them the dignity and confidence that they did work it out, rather then being shoved along.

I don't use treats in training. I use the luxury of time for them to work out their own thought processes.

Not sure I have explained that well/

 

[Caol Ila]

I've been trying to round up a tame quad bike for months, but no luck so far. Finding a yard staff member who is allowed to handle it and also has the time and inclination to help is like finding the Loch Ness Monster. Fixing it would fix a lot of the other stuff -- once he's seen a quad, he's on the lookout for danger. I know we had a pig issue a few weeks ago, but once I got away from the pigs, he resumed normal service and was fine for the rest of the ride (22k!). If 0 is completely calm and 100 is galloping down the road, quads put him at about 50. They used to put him closer to 90, so it's better than it was, for sure. But it still doesn't give you many rabbits if anything else worries him.

When he panicked at the motorcycle racing, I moved further from the road and let him hand graze, and he settled significantly. Just as I was getting ready to get back on and head off, another quad rolled past. It was one of those days where everything that could go wrong did. The golf took me by surprise, though. We'd been on that trail loads of times. I'd got him feeling a lot better after all the other things (clearly not 100% calm, though!), and I was feeling pretty good, then someone must have whacked a ball, and before I knew it, we were at Defcon Four.

After reading Red's post, I told OH that we need to go to the golfy part of the WHW, preferably on a sunny weekend when the golfers are likely to be there, and spend a lot of time hanging out.

I also said we need to steal Hermosa's giant exercise ball and show it to Foinavon.

I suppose it's not terribly helpful that he didn't learn how to not be reactive as a youngster, but a lot of domestic horses miss those lessons too. I keep reminding myself that Gypsum could be pretty wild on trails for the first couple years I had her.

 

[Caol Ila]

It would also be useful to have a buddy horse who I know can deal with quad bikes, sudden loud popping noises, pigs, fire, high-speed vehicles…. Oh, wait. I own that horse. It’s just not at the same yard….

 

[Red-1]

After reading Red's post, I told OH that we need to go to the golfy part of the WHW, preferably on a sunny weekend when the golfers are likely to be there, and spend a lot of time hanging out.

I would do the halt before he gets to the bit where he is worried though, as soon as he is thinking about what is ahead. I'm not always sure that hanging out where they are over threshold is very helpful. It is about blurring the line between what is OK and what is worrying.

 

[SEL]

I wish trigger stacking was more generally understood by owners with horses struggling with low grade pain that "only misbehaves when we are at a competition so he must be trying it on".
.

I've come to the conclusion that's why my symptomatic PSSM mare can be so unpredictable. It's not always easy to tell when she's struggling from her physical appearance but personality wise she's pretty chilled when she's well but really reactive when she's sore.

 

[Caol Ila]

I would do the halt before he gets to the bit where he is worried though, as soon as he is thinking about what is ahead. I'm not always sure that hanging out where they are over threshold is very helpful. It is about blurring the line between what is OK and what is worrying.

I hear that. They just fight you when they are over threshold. I guess the tricky thing with the golf is that you don't know. He was okay, and then he wasn't. It's some people milling about on the other side of a small woodland, which isn't a big deal, then a horrible cracking whistling noise happens and it all goes wrong. How would you manage that?

 

[Red-1]

I hear that. They just fight you when they are over threshold. I guess the tricky thing with the golf is that you don't know. He was okay, and then he wasn't. It's some people milling about on the other side of a small woodland, which isn't a big deal, then a horrible cracking whistling noise happens and it all goes wrong. How would you manage that?

I had one that was over sensitive to a whip noise. We did a lot of whip noises, starting small. By the end, I could (and did) tie 2 lunge whips together and skip at canter over them, with a whoosh round the ears. The horse was seriously scared, by the end, he simply wasn't.

I tend to do that sort of stuff on the floor, I get them to want to interact first, be walking away and do a random, small whoosh, and keep walking, not even acknowledging that something has happened. I just play with them, often with no halter or anything. Until the come stand with you even when random things happen.

I find that, in the end, they generalise that whatever silly stuff you do, it is Ok and interesting rather than a threat. My horses have a lot of silly stuff go on! Baby horse has even done a lance and quintain, as well as the tarp, flag, fitness ball etc. It isn't about proofing him to those items, it is helping him to generalise that stuff will be OK. As I said, he was not the bravest and I spent from September, when I got him, until the Xmas holidays, doing the same 35 minute ride, over and over, as I needed to address other stuff before we could strike out.

It is difficult to describe.

But, to be fair, if it is the noise of golfers, that are unpredictable, I would sort the noise part out at home where stuff is controllable. Just hijacking him with the noise that is unseen and unpredictable would likely cause more issues.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Following this with interest.
Dave finds life a bit worrying sometimes & things which are normally fine, can some days mean spinning & running. I am planning to restart clicker training with him, but interested in all your stories.

 

[Caol Ila]

We seem to have a golf club. OH says it came with the flat (as these things do?). If we got a ball, I guess we could whack it around the outdoor, but gently. There's no safe place where we could really thwack it, plus it's not like either of us can do a proper golf swing anyway.

I should add that we have to do everything on lead. We are not allowed to turn horses loose in any arena. So we have to work around that rule, unfortunately.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I should add that we have to do everything on lead. We are not allowed to turn horses loose in any arena. So we have to work around that rule, unfortunately.

That would drive me crazy. I’m forever parking my horse in the arena whilst I adjust or fetch things. He’s got park pretty well trained!

But he’s strange when he was on box rest i let go of him to adjust the potties for the raised poles in hand ground work. Said box rest horse stood there licking the potties! No running about or rolling! (He did both once allowed back in field even with some sedation).