Caledonia
Well-Known Member
I can't now open the link either, but it was all in there.
ETA, seems to be the farrier website that's down, so it should return at some point.
Trimmer prosecuted for 'shoeing'
- Thread starter SusieT
- Start date
I can't now open the link either, but it was all in there.
ETA, seems to be the farrier website that's down, so it should return at some point.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Iamsanta that's awful, if that's what's happening it's good his name has been brought to light.
Iv got 5 bare and 1 shod, tbh I think the owner is to blame just as much, to leave a horse lame for that long is disgusting and what was the vets views on the horse?why was it lame? Tbh I wouldn't use things like the wraps I feel if you need to start using things like that the horse isn't coping and you need as a owner to work out what's best.
I perfer barefoot and yes it is fair better for the horse if they can cope and the owners can " cope" as it's not easy to provide the enviroment that some horses need but if one of mine couldn't cope I would have to put front back on after trying to find out why it wasn't working but wouldn't leave a horse sore.
BUT on the other side one of mine was lame after every shoeing by different farriers and was on box rest/bute and barefoot has given him a extra chance in life. He's off bute and sound and coping well.
You will always get bad farriers and trimmers and owners as this horse should not have been kept for that long lame but I don't see it has anything to do with the " them" "us" as there's bad farriers as well like I said. But it's interesting to hear about these things and hopefully somebody will learn something from it
Iv got 5 bare and 1 shod, tbh I think the owner is to blame just as much, to leave a horse lame for that long is disgusting and what was the vets views on the horse?why was it lame? Tbh I wouldn't use things like the wraps I feel if you need to start using things like that the horse isn't coping and you need as a owner to work out what's best.
I perfer barefoot and yes it is fair better for the horse if they can cope and the owners can " cope" as it's not easy to provide the enviroment that some horses need but if one of mine couldn't cope I would have to put front back on after trying to find out why it wasn't working but wouldn't leave a horse sore.
BUT on the other side one of mine was lame after every shoeing by different farriers and was on box rest/bute and barefoot has given him a extra chance in life. He's off bute and sound and coping well.
You will always get bad farriers and trimmers and owners as this horse should not have been kept for that long lame but I don't see it has anything to do with the " them" "us" as there's bad farriers as well like I said. But it's interesting to hear about these things and hopefully somebody will learn something from it
ester
Not slacking multitasking
SC, my belief is that the wraps are not rigid.. like a cast but are made from a polymer which flexes http://www.lindsaydaep-equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/#/poly-flex-wraps/4559942182 I might be wrong though because I don't really know enough about it.
My thought on it is that the wraps alone aren't wholly different to a poultice or similar applied to the foot..
Screws... given what the law is in this country.. er nope.. prob pushing the boundary too far.
The issue of temporary glue on easyboots is perhaps an interesting one though.
eta quirky Im not sure vetwrap would give the same effect and presume that someone has designed and patented this as an all in one product so they use what is out there even if it were possible to apply the polymer separately.... although having read the IHDG thread your suggestion is how someone describes the application!
The wrap moulds to the hoof, it is squirted on as liquid and wrapped in wet bandage.
Read more: http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gh11&action=display&thread=124252&page=5#ixzz26cnymfPF
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
then others say not... there are different ones 
*gives up 
*gives up 
Oberon
Well-Known Member
They are not a shoe or a rigid structure that prevents the hoof from flexing. They can be pulled off with a pair of scissors and your hand....so the vet saying they needed tools to do so (which was a corner stone of the judgement) is bull.
The use of casts are as a stop gap from shod to barefoot where a horse is not suitable for boots (due to hoof shape or owner compliance) and to go with nothing would be unkind to the horse. After a few weeks the horse would have built enough sole to be more comfortable.
Having said that, there are better boots nowadays and other options to use.
What bothers me is the way the FRC are targeting trimmers before getting their own house in order and where it's going next.
BTW - getting the vets on board with trimmers??? How many of you who have rehabbed barefoot have done so WITH the blessing of your vets? Not as many as we'd like
Also, as far as training to be a farrier.....I have studied farrier training as part of one of my exams with the ESA and I have no intention of going there thank you.
The use of casts are as a stop gap from shod to barefoot where a horse is not suitable for boots (due to hoof shape or owner compliance) and to go with nothing would be unkind to the horse. After a few weeks the horse would have built enough sole to be more comfortable.
Having said that, there are better boots nowadays and other options to use.
What bothers me is the way the FRC are targeting trimmers before getting their own house in order and where it's going next.
BTW - getting the vets on board with trimmers??? How many of you who have rehabbed barefoot have done so WITH the blessing of your vets? Not as many as we'd like
Also, as far as training to be a farrier.....I have studied farrier training as part of one of my exams with the ESA and I have no intention of going there thank you
.SusieT
Well-Known Member
Can I ask how it is acceptable to those defending these wraps for the horse to be lame with bruising, an abscess developing and a loose screw under a fixed cast on the hoof? Or any of the above?
Assuming we're not accusing the FRC of lying about those details? Reading the IHDG thread there, the owner appears happy that the horse had loose screws etc. .... Not what I'd be happy with. Besides which a cast is rigid, stops movement and has the potential for serious abuse.
A vetwrap is seriously different as it's not rigid.
Assuming we're not accusing the FRC of lying about those details? Reading the IHDG thread there, the owner appears happy that the horse had loose screws etc. .... Not what I'd be happy with. Besides which a cast is rigid, stops movement and has the potential for serious abuse.
A vetwrap is seriously different as it's not rigid.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
I think it's impossible to speak about the horse in question without knowing the full circumstances and seeing the horse in person.
The trimmer plead guilty to contravening the Farriers Act on the basis that they are considering wraps to be a type of shoe.
The welfare of the horse was not investigated - so we don't know the full story about the horse's condition before and after the trimmer got involved.
I think people are getting confused over the word 'cast'. They are not rigid and will allow the hoof to flex when loaded by the horse.
Would I use them? No I wouldn't.
But we need to keep perspective and not get hysterical or lose the facts of what wraps really are - a temporary tool to make the horse more comfortable while the hoof heals.
The trimmer plead guilty to contravening the Farriers Act on the basis that they are considering wraps to be a type of shoe.
The welfare of the horse was not investigated - so we don't know the full story about the horse's condition before and after the trimmer got involved.
I think people are getting confused over the word 'cast'. They are not rigid and will allow the hoof to flex when loaded by the horse.
Would I use them? No I wouldn't.
But we need to keep perspective and not get hysterical or lose the facts of what wraps really are - a temporary tool to make the horse more comfortable while the hoof heals.
brightmount
Well-Known Member
I have used these wraps on my horse and would not hesitate to use them again. They are not a shoe and have their own place inthe whole field of hoof care.
In my case, my horse had been barefoot 5 years but due to some bad environmental conditions at the time had a badly rotten heel (pics below). After treating the infection with Cleantrax, the hoof was protected for two six-week cycles with the Perfect Wear wraps used by DAEPs. The other front hoof was also wrapped for balance.
At the end of this, during which the horse was fine to be turned out and ridden on soft surfaces, the infected area had almost grown out and my trimmer was able to tidy the hoof up, and we got back to normal.
The wraps as you can see are paper thin, and I can bend them with my hands, which I can't do with shoe, so of course a half-ton horse will have flexibility in its foot wearing these wraps. You can also see in the last photo that two small screws were attached to the outside of the hoof wall just to assist the purchase of the wrap. The screws are so small, they came away with the wraps when they were removed, with no damage and in any case, the screw area was right at the bottom; the bit that is trimmed off with the next trim when the wraps have encouraged all the therapeutic new hoof growth.
I would choose this method for transitioning a horse from shoes to barefoot if they had crumbly feet, like they often do from all the farriers nail holes. I suggest critics of the method have never seen it in action.
In my case, my horse had been barefoot 5 years but due to some bad environmental conditions at the time had a badly rotten heel (pics below). After treating the infection with Cleantrax, the hoof was protected for two six-week cycles with the Perfect Wear wraps used by DAEPs. The other front hoof was also wrapped for balance.
At the end of this, during which the horse was fine to be turned out and ridden on soft surfaces, the infected area had almost grown out and my trimmer was able to tidy the hoof up, and we got back to normal.
The wraps as you can see are paper thin, and I can bend them with my hands, which I can't do with shoe, so of course a half-ton horse will have flexibility in its foot wearing these wraps. You can also see in the last photo that two small screws were attached to the outside of the hoof wall just to assist the purchase of the wrap. The screws are so small, they came away with the wraps when they were removed, with no damage and in any case, the screw area was right at the bottom; the bit that is trimmed off with the next trim when the wraps have encouraged all the therapeutic new hoof growth.
I would choose this method for transitioning a horse from shoes to barefoot if they had crumbly feet, like they often do from all the farriers nail holes. I suggest critics of the method have never seen it in action.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Given that the FRC have clearly shown they are happy to prosecute trimmers and that there is now a case law precedent for them winning where these wraps with screws are used, I can't help thinking posting pics of your horse showing someone has done the exact same thing on an open Internet forum, and on a thread that the FRC are bound to be monitoring is naieve in the extreme. I hope your trimmer doesn't mind being next in line for a solicitor's letter!!
Oberon
Well-Known Member
True
But in that case I would also expect the FRC to be fair and investigate all the 'My horse has just been shod and is crippled' threads too
.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Ah but their answer to that would be that as you are using a reg farrier they can only act on a complaint (which FWIW I think is far too hard to bring against a farrier, not least because you need other farriers willing to stand up and be counted and they tend to close ranks), whereas vs trimmers they 'have' to prosecute as no other options open because no regulatory body 
Oberon
Well-Known Member
Ah but their answer to that would be that as you are using a reg farrier they can only act on a complaint (which FWIW I think is far too hard to bring against a farrier, not least because you need other farriers willing to stand up and be counted and they tend to close ranks), whereas vs trimmers they 'have' to prosecute as no other options open because no regulatory body
Damn you and your legal brain.
Brightbay
Well-Known Member
Does this imply, in principle, that a vet may be prosecuted for applying a cast to a hoof?
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
No, vets are covered by the farriers act I think. I am sure there is explicit mention of vets in it.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
No. Vets are exempt from the Act.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
And by covered I mean explicitly allowed to do things which are otherwise illegal unless you're a farrier.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
ps- I don't defend bad farriers, far from it! So maybe if the barefoot lot don't defend bad trimmers just because they are trimmers and try and turn it on farriers this would make it less of an us and them job?
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Thank goodness for the FRC. Some of these trimmers are very deluded in their competence. All credit to KC too, who declined to pay this guy's legal expenses.
This ruling will hopefully prevent specialised procedures being done by other trimmers without proper training.
Tiding up an unshod hoof by an amateur is one thing, but prescribing treatment is quite another.
This ruling will hopefully prevent specialised procedures being done by other trimmers without proper training.
Tiding up an unshod hoof by an amateur is one thing, but prescribing treatment is quite another.
Brightbay
Well-Known Member
Thanks for clarifying
Agree about bad farriers vs bad trimmers - in fact I currently use neither, since I can't find anybody local whose work reassures me enough to use them.
The current situation is not good. The FRC does not provide a good mechanism to deal with poor farriery (or we'd have at least some evidence of them taking action rather than endless threads on here of dire shod feet) and the trimmers are fragmented and do not have a single regulatory body to reassure clients and uphold standards.
This is a bad situation for horse welfare, let alone a cause of constant confusion and anxiety for many owners - and then having the two sets of professionals at one another's throats over petty definitions of what consitutes "shoeing" doesn't help move the situation forward at all.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Have to say I do agree that the FRC needs to be more heavy handed on welfare cases, e.g the mutilation-he should have been struck off and it does open the door to claims of protecting their own.
SusannaF
Well-Known Member
Ah, link broken. Does anyone have another? I can't get the site to work.
Zuzan
Well-Known Member
the charge was that the Wraps applied constituted shoeing... as this wasn't contested (due to lack of funds as stated elsewhere) the application of wraps is still unclear and is quite a grey area as the Farrier Act was drawn up before such things existed.
There was no charge of welfare etc.. the court decided not to bring this charge. Probably as there was no proof...
Interestingly the legality of using wraps was discussed back in 2008 on the EPAUK forum and it was felt too much of a close call and that the problems that application of the wraps could be addressed using other less contentious methods.. effectively the only trimming school that uses wraps is that aligned to K C La Pierre (not the EPAUK or UKNHCP, AANHCP)
Really the FRC are as much use as a "chocolate kettle" as they clearly do not protect the horse from malpractice by farriers they only protect farriers ..which given they are a professional body is hardly surprising.. most prof bodies seem to be far more interested in protected their members .. which is why we have regulators I guess ...
I would love to see a equine regulator that looked after the interests of horses whether it was vet / physio / farrier / trimmer / breeding etc
this case really demonstrates that equine professional bodies don't work as far as equine welfare is concerned as the action was only brought to protect farriers and not the horse.
There was no charge of welfare etc.. the court decided not to bring this charge. Probably as there was no proof...
Interestingly the legality of using wraps was discussed back in 2008 on the EPAUK forum and it was felt too much of a close call and that the problems that application of the wraps could be addressed using other less contentious methods.. effectively the only trimming school that uses wraps is that aligned to K C La Pierre (not the EPAUK or UKNHCP, AANHCP)
Really the FRC are as much use as a "chocolate kettle" as they clearly do not protect the horse from malpractice by farriers they only protect farriers ..which given they are a professional body is hardly surprising.. most prof bodies seem to be far more interested in protected their members .. which is why we have regulators I guess ...
I would love to see a equine regulator that looked after the interests of horses whether it was vet / physio / farrier / trimmer / breeding etc
this case really demonstrates that equine professional bodies don't work as far as equine welfare is concerned as the action was only brought to protect farriers and not the horse.
TigerTail
Well-Known Member
One thing that surprises me on this thread is those creating over the tiny screws used with the wraps - if I presume you have shod horses do you realise the size of the nails bashed into your horses feet?? And the tiny tiny room for error in their placement before they hit live tissue? In comparison a 3mm screw that is only on hoof wall for a bit of wrap to grip to is small fry surely?!
I would also suggest you read the comments on the farriers forum - it basically seems that the farrier had fitted the shoe, the owner decided they wernt happy with it, had it removed and wraps instead, farrier returned and saw someone had undone his work and threw his toys out of the pram! The viciousness of some of the posts on that forum towards trimmers is astounding - this is a clear example of farriers feeling threatened by the progression in barefoot and trying to create a lot of bad press to protect their living.
http://www.farriery.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=898
I would also suggest you read the comments on the farriers forum - it basically seems that the farrier had fitted the shoe, the owner decided they wernt happy with it, had it removed and wraps instead, farrier returned and saw someone had undone his work and threw his toys out of the pram! The viciousness of some of the posts on that forum towards trimmers is astounding - this is a clear example of farriers feeling threatened by the progression in barefoot and trying to create a lot of bad press to protect their living.
http://www.farriery.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=898
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
First, I don;t agree with what that trimmer did.
But you are labouring under a common misconception, Mrs M, that trainee farriers are taught about how to keep hardworking horses without shoes. They aren't, routinely. It is not in the syllabus. The only time an apprentice will see horses like mine, doing stuff without shoes that would be expected to have to wear shoes to do that level of work is if, by chance, their master happens to have some on his books. That's the only reason trimmers exist in the first place, because the FRC fails to train its apprentices comprehensively.
This needs changing!
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SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
It's not that those of us who shoe as required have an issue with the screws per se, it's the blatant hypocrisy of a movement that spends so much time telling us how damaging something which damages the hoof wall is then seemingly perfectly happy with the idea of doing the self same thing. One can argue the degrees of damage as much as one likes, but the principle still stands.
Given how many trimmers effectively accuse all farriers and those who shoe of pushing horses to an early grave I'm not surprised the farrier forums aren't tolerant. A bit of tolerance in both directions wouldn't go amiss.
Given how many trimmers effectively accuse all farriers and those who shoe of pushing horses to an early grave I'm not surprised the farrier forums aren't tolerant. A bit of tolerance in both directions wouldn't go amiss.
quirky
Well-Known Member
Every credit to my farrier, who has never got it wrong (well horse has never been lame/foot sore) in the 4 years I've had her
ester
Not slacking multitasking
SC I do think it is worth noting that the 'movement' as such has several quite different factions.
When deciding what to do with F I did discount someone locally based on the fact that they use wraps and preferred the UKNCHP approach to trimming.
When deciding what to do with F I did discount someone locally based on the fact that they use wraps and preferred the UKNCHP approach to trimming.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
One of the major problems IMO is all the factions. I spent a lot of time researching 'barefoot' (in all its guises) for a horse I had, including spending a day with a trimmer etc.
Not everyone who routinely shoes (as I do) is completely closed minded to the idea, but I'm afraid until it is properly regulated and there is some kind of industry standard the whole thing runs the risk of being a house of cards which it is very easy for organisations such as the FRC to knock down in this manner.
I don't think there should be any difference in the trim given to a horse in work (of whatever level) vs a horse just out in the field, and personally I wouldn't use anyone who did think that. I will continue to use a farrier for the current horse (now shoes off), because the idea which is perpetuated by trimmers that no farrier knows how to trim except as a precursor to fitting shoes is a nonsense. If they can't trim well then I certainly wouldn't let them do something as delicate and precise as nail on a shoe.
Not everyone who routinely shoes (as I do) is completely closed minded to the idea, but I'm afraid until it is properly regulated and there is some kind of industry standard the whole thing runs the risk of being a house of cards which it is very easy for organisations such as the FRC to knock down in this manner.
I don't think there should be any difference in the trim given to a horse in work (of whatever level) vs a horse just out in the field, and personally I wouldn't use anyone who did think that. I will continue to use a farrier for the current horse (now shoes off), because the idea which is perpetuated by trimmers that no farrier knows how to trim except as a precursor to fitting shoes is a nonsense. If they can't trim well then I certainly wouldn't let them do something as delicate and precise as nail on a shoe.
TigerTail
Well-Known Member
WestCoast
Well-Known Member
. . . And yet the alternative practitioner still managed to **** it up.