trimming a barefoot horse

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Jericho

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My mare has now been barefoot for about 6mths and I hack out once a week - some roadwork, some very stony tracks (unavoidable) and some grass tracks. She was trimmed last week and I rode her for the first time yesterday since the trim and she felt very footy and it really made me doubt my decision about going barefoot. She seemed to be doing very well with only the occassional tippy toe steps on really stony tracks and this was becoming less and less plus when I knew we were going on the stony tracks I started using hoof boots which worked really well. Her feet are in fantastic condition and dont really chip and she moves a lot better generally and for the amount I ride her the upside of shoeing dont really outweigh the negatives so I would like to keep her shod.

However I have noticed that when the farrier came to trim her he took a lot of her sole off and I thought with barefoot horses you need to almost let the sole reallyy callous and become hard as that is what they are stepping on. He also said she'll be a bit sore for a day or so out hacking!!!

Now I really like my farrier, he is great with the horses and really knows how to shoe a horse, is reliable etc so I really really dont want to change him so please can someone who trims barefoot explain what a barefoot trim should be and how I can broach the subject with my lovely farrier if needs be?
 
Jericho said:
However I have noticed that when the farrier came to trim her he took a lot of her sole off ?
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You have your answer. You don't touch the sole in a barefoot horse. Get yourself a farrier who knows how to trim a horse for work barefoot, or a barefoot trimmer. Dump this farrier immediately no matter how much you like him, he has just lamed your horse and that should speak for itself about his inability to manage a barefoot horse.
 
I would not be pleased if my barefoot horses were footy after trimming :eek:
I trim them myself once a week and they are looked at/checked by my farrier who comes to do my shod horses ... but the way I see it - horses are sound on all grounds (full felt over stony tracks) and feet are solid and look "right".
 
Confused me there! I think you mean "full pelt over stony tracks ":) and so are mine, though I have to restrict daytime grass for one of them to keep him like it in spring and summer.
 
My farrier never touches the soles, and only does a tiny bit of a tidy on Farra's frogs because I ask him to so I can easily clean the clefts, but Stinky's never need doing so are left.

Sounds as if your farrier is doing a trim to prepare for a shoe to be fitted rather than for the horse to go unshoed.

Touch wood, mine are never footy, but my farrier does a good trim, even my fussy vet likes the way their feet are.
 
However I have noticed that when the farrier came to trim her he took a lot of her sole off and I thought with barefoot horses you need to almost let the sole reallyy callous and become hard as that is what they are stepping on. He also said she'll be a bit sore for a day or so out hacking!!!
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Aagghhh! I'd have gone mad! And it sounded like he KNEW he shouldn't be doing it.

THIS is the reason there is a market for 'trimmers'. As much as many people scoff at them and think they are a waste of space, whilst there are farriers about doing stupid things like this (all because they followed proceedure without actually THINKING about it) then trimmers are needed.

Don't worry - her sole will grow back. Try and get out on hard but smooth surfaces are much as possible (tarmac) and within a couple of weeks she'll be back to normal.

Barefoot trim should ONLY be taking off excess wall length to level with the sole callus, and keeping the heels short. The sole should never be pared and the frogs should ONLY be trimmed to remove any tatty dead stuff that will harbour thrush.
 
ohh poo - I had a feeling that he shouldnt have taken the sole off and didnt have the guts to speak up then and there. Right, so now how do I say to him this and not sound like I am questioning his profession. I feel I ought to give him the chance to explain / do it differently rather than just 'discontinue his services' .....
 
I went on a Barefoot seminar once, and there were a few farriers there. They said that it is just automatic for a farrier to pick up a horse's hoof and scoop it out - so they can get at the hoof wall I suppose, to trim it down level to receive the shoe.

A barefoot trimmer on the other hand doesn't touch the sole, apart from maybe scaping a bit of loose. And they just trim the frog to keep it clean.
 
Jericho said:
ohh poo - I had a feeling that he shouldnt have taken the sole off and didnt have the guts to speak up then and there. Right, so now how do I say to him this and not sound like I am questioning his profession. I feel I ought to give him the chance to explain / do it differently rather than just 'discontinue his services' .....
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Being cynical, if he knew the horse would be sore after his trim, why did he do it? Could it be a case of it being more profitable for him to shoe?

Asking questions is the way forwards I think, get him to explain what he is doing and his reasons and tell him you'd like to leave the sole alone and see what he says. At the end of the day you are paying for his services to trim your horses in the way you prefer, if he is against doing that or at least trying to work with you for the best outcome for the horse then I think you need to look elsewhere. One of the best things is to do your own research so that you have a good understanding of the hoof and trim yourself and can discuss things more comnfortably with him.
 
Shod or barefoot, if a farrier leaves a horse lamer that before more than once then I think it is time to look for someone else.

One time when mine was shod, the farrier is question took a bit too much off and left Frankie really sore. The farrier is question was absolutely mortified and was texting daily to see how he was and it didn't happen again. He learnt from that that was the right way to trim that horse.
 
cptrayes said:
You have your answer. You don't touch the sole in a barefoot horse. Get yourself a farrier who knows how to trim a horse for work barefoot, or a barefoot trimmer. Dump this farrier immediately no matter how much you like him, he has just lamed your horse and that should speak for itself about his inability to manage a barefoot horse.
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Have to disagree with this. A barefoot trimmer will remove what shouldn't be there - so if there is dead sole then it should be removed. In the wild this dead sole would be removed naturally by exfoliation and abrasion, but unless you keep your horse on a Paddock Paradise system or do lots of work on rough terrain they are unlikely to get enough exfoliation of the soles naturally. What shouldn't ever be touched is live sole, which includes sole calluss. The distinction can be difficult to make which is why you should always make sure your trimmer or farrier has been trained to know the difference. Leaving dead sole can cause as many problems as taking live sole - dead sole can become compacted, causing pressure on the pedal bone and altering the balance of the foot... so to say sole should never be touched is inaccurate. Live sole should never be touched is what we are saying.

A horse should certainly not be lamer after a trim than before - but before you blame your farrier entirely just double check nothing else has changed e.g have you changed her diet, has the grass she has access to suddenly put on a growth spurt (particularly if its been very dry and suddenly you get lots of rain? Also for mares I have found over and over that coming into season can make mares become footy - it's got to be related to hormone levels though no one is quite sure exactly what is going on, just that it can be a factor.
 
What MrDarcy said - always spot on

I would think about skipping a trim - give it the full 12 weeks for everything to recover - and make sure that you are feeding a good mineral supplement (adequate copper etc)

I trim my own guys and never ever touch the sole or frogs except in two cases - my TBxID gelding tends to get corns on the inside and is grateful when these lumps are removed, and the laminitic pony sheds "false sole" in the autumn which needs gently removed over the course of a few weeks leaving a beautiful new concave sole underneath.

Afraid I'm one of the "trim only when it is absolutely necessary" brigade - not into the regular scheduled trims which in my opinion are the source of a lot of the problems holding back horses from getting really good feet.

If a bare horse is getting enough work on abrasive surfaces he does not need trimming - I have trimmed one of my guys once since October '09 and that was just a light tidy up to remove some raggies.

Ideally they grow what they wear, and wear what they grow.
 
Actually, there are so many differing trimming schools out there with conflicting information on what should and should not be done during a trim it is very confusing especially to those new to barefoot.

I trained with KC La Pierre - a different trim again I believe to what mrdarcy, kallibear and ORANGEHORSE are talking about.

Im not going to get into the whys and wherefores of one trim versus another other than to say most reasonably experienced people know what a good foot should look like and what looks 'right' or 'wrong' - does your horses foot look like this?

It does sound as if your farrier was preparing the foot to recieve a shoe, not function without one. I would speak about this with him and try to find out why he did what he did - if your questions aren't satisfied or you have any doubts I would consider your options and look elsewhere.

I do agree that they should be no more lame after a trim than before one.
 
thanks for all your replies. I find the topic of barefoot fascinating and am learning so much. They are being trimmed every 8 weeks at the moment and on the last trim he took a fair bit from the wall as well as the sole as the length had grown so much. She was more footy but certainly not lame on smooth flat surface and this as Mrdarcy suggested we have had 6 weeks of no rain and no grass growth and then in the last few days lots of rain and the grass has visibly shot up so the increase in sugars may have contributed.

I have been using the keratex on her soles again to help harden them off again and she has been having Formula4feet which I think has helped lots but am shortly changing her to TopSpec AntiLam (due to cost mostly).

The real issue is that I need to have chat with the farrier about leaving the sole alone. I think I will say that she was footy last time and I think it was due to the sole coming off and could we try leaving it to see how she gets on.
 
Careful with the TopSpec Antilam - I had one go laminitic on that. I don;t like the TopSpec products - they never agreed wiht my four.

Have a poke around ont he UKNHCP forum and seek information on the MBP diet - that will give your horse a safe diet. Don't trust the labels on the bags of feed.

Im not going to get into the whys and wherefores of one trim versus another other than to say most reasonably experienced people know what a good foot should look like and what looks 'right' or 'wrong' - does your horses foot look like this?
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That's the point I was making Laura - a horse's foot can look "wrong" to a trimmer/owner/farrier - but actually funciton very well for that horse. When the theory and the horse disagree who are you going to believe? If the hoof works for the horse, however "wrong" it looks this is "right" for that horse.

The horse will grow what it needs to support what is above the hoof - and if that means deviation and a hoof that looks "wrong" then that is something we have to acknowledge.

There is no "right" hoof shape - only a hoof that works for the horse. That is a fundamental shift in thinking - and why I can never accept a system of trimming that is dependant on measurement and angles.
 
As ever, these discussions are so interesting. I think that what is "right" comes with experience. To start with a learner trimmer would be taught this way or that way and stick to it, but with experience, handling different horses, different hooves, they would find that every horse is an individual and one would need some sole removed.
What is the MBP diet?

I use TopSpec Comprehensive supplement and I love it. I feed my horse and companion pony on it. The latter never does any exercise and is a chunky pony, but he has never had laminitis, although he was on the brink of it earlier this year when I had run out of TopSpec and he was getting a bit more grass than usual. I agree with the "leaky gut" reason for laminitis and Top Spec has digestive yeasts which I am sure help (but if you know of a cheaper souce I would be intersted!).
 
I feed MBP (Magic Barefoot Powder!) based diet

Unmollassed beet
Linseed
Brewer's yeast
Yea-sac (for the lami's)
MagOx
A local made mineral supplement for our soils
seaweed

They look great, have pretty good feet, and inerestingly I never groom them other than to detangle manes - never have to.
 
brucea said:
That's the point I was making Laura - a horse's foot can look "wrong" to a trimmer/owner/farrier - but actually funciton very well for that horse. When the theory and the horse disagree who are you going to believe? If the hoof works for the horse, however "wrong" it looks this is "right" for that horse.

The horse will grow what it needs to support what is above the hoof - and if that means deviation and a hoof that looks "wrong" then that is something we have to acknowledge.

There is no "right" hoof shape - only a hoof that works for the horse. That is a fundamental shift in thinking - and why I can never accept a system of trimming that is dependant on measurement and angles.
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Oh I totally agree with you and thats why I chose to train where I did - the HPT trim trims to where the pedal bone sits within the hoof capsule, not to set angle and measurements of the capsule such as the Strasser trim etc.

If your pedal bone is not level within the capsule neither will your hoof be but you will have a sound and functioning horse as the limb will be loading as nature intended.

It goes much deeper than just with what is going on with the hoof though because if you have a weakness further up the limb you will get compensatory movement which can be exacerbated if the hoof is allowed to continue to grow following a pattern. This is where I think it is important for bodyworkers to also be involved and also where a trimmer needs to have an excellent understanding of biomechanics and know exactly what is going on with the horse at any particular time. Its also why I will always walk and trot a horse up before and after a trim.
 
the HPT trim trims to where the pedal bone sits within the hoof capsule
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Without x-rays how do you know that you have the balance correct? Reality is that one can't, so the solar plane is the only thing we can trim to and hope that the internal location of P3 reflects what you see in the solar plane

But what about a horse who consistently grows one wall higher for example? Should one keep removing this wall height - recognising that it is compensatory for the weakness further up the limb, thus throwing the horse off of the balance he has made for himself?

Agree on getting a good body worker - better to solve the problem and then look for the hoof adaption to disappear on its own, than to keep addressing the adaption.
 
Im sorry to hijack this post.
My old mare has lumps of sole, about 3mm thick which i can sometimes if it's rainied, skim off with a hoofpick whilst picking her feet out (she is Bfoot). Is this live sole, and should i be doing this?

Also, when looking at her from the side, her feet look as if they need a trim (HPA slightly out) but underneath, there is nothing to nipper off, just the rolled edge i maintain with a rasp once a week.
 
lurobsam2 said:
Im sorry to hijack this post.
My old mare has lumps of sole, about 3mm thick which i can sometimes if it's rainied, skim off with a hoofpick whilst picking her feet out (she is Bfoot). Is this live sole, and should i be doing this?

Also, when looking at her from the side, her feet look as if they need a trim (HPA slightly out) but underneath, there is nothing to nipper off, just the rolled edge i maintain with a rasp once a week.
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Like Brucea says - if it comes off with a hoof pick it's dead sole and doesn't need to be there. I took the shoes off a new client's horse a few months ago and you could literally pull lumps of sole off with your fingers. Who knows what the farrier was thinking?! But the horse's feet look great now!

If you're worried about whether her feet need a trim why don't you get a qualified trimmer over to look at her? If she has lots of dead sole then there may be hoof wall that can taken off but if you are not 100% sure of the difference between live sole and dead sole then you should get a pro in.
 
lurobsam2 said:
Also, when looking at her from the side, her feet look as if they need a trim (HPA slightly out) but underneath, there is nothing to nipper off, just the rolled edge i maintain with a rasp once a week.
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One of mine was like this - he has been barefoot for six years but has never had a good hoof-pastern axis. Since discovering all the stuff about performance barefoot, he has been on the mix mentioned above, and he is growing in a tighter, better angled hoof. I think it's the mag ox that is making the most difference. It should be completely in by the end of the year and I have high hopes (*fingers tightly crossed*) for his feet once that happens.
 
Generally in the autumn my lami pony will shed his sole - it peels off leavign a lovely concave sole underneath. I know he builds this up because he does not really do enough out on the rougher ground
 
brucea said:
Without x-rays how do you know that you have the balance correct? Reality is that one can't, so the solar plane is the only thing we can trim to and hope that the internal location of P3 reflects what you see in the solar plane
By a lot of research done in the US - they found that at the widest part of the foot (the area of least distortion) there is a uniform depth of live sole above the pedal bone. Once you have put the heels to the correct height (providing there is enough heel to do this of course) or decided where the correct height should be and found the live sole at the widest part of the foot you then have the live sole plane on which to take your toe too.

It works consistently well and has been proved via x-ray in trials time and time again. I have tested it myself with my navicular rehab I have had x-rayed.

If you want more info I suggest reading 'the chosen road' by KC La Pierre.

Obviously using this method you can deduce why a horse may be growing one wall higher than another - whether it is the pedal bone itself of a physical issue higher up the limb.

I am very open to learning about other methods too however and reasons why or why not certain things are done/not done. So far KC's method based on research sits best with me but thats not say it will always be that way :)
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