Trouble with buying dispute

[cptrayes]

Verbal agreements are not worth the paper... air they're dispelled on! It's similar in a way to buying a car, if you put down a deposit and then the next day you change your mind, you forfeit your deposit (which you've done) and you walk away trouble free as you have not had any written agreements or contracts, and should you then leave and you have advised the owners that you have no intention to buy, then you are not obliged for any further costs from the day that you walked away and told them of your intentions.

This is not true. Verbal agreements are the same in law as written contracts. If you put a deposit on a car agreeing to pay the balance, then you owe for the balance. The same is true of this horse.

The key here is in what the agreement was, but the OP has said she agreed to buy the horse, and if this is correct, then they are entitled to sue her for the balance if she will not pay it.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks all!

I rang a solicitor specialising in equine this morning. She was great and talking to someone who knows what they're talking about legal-wise and has horses of their own was fab.
She's advised me to write a letter notifying of termination of purchase, as given the circumstances (them leaving the horse in my care when they left despite me not paying full balance) means that if they wish to pursue matters I can claim back all the costs I had for her over that time - totalling almost £900.
I am now hoping they will take the passport back and not wish to take things further - as it would seem a lot of stress and hassle just to break even.

In any other circumstance I would happily pay and accept that I have taken the horse on and it's now my responsibility, however as the horse was simply left with me without me having paid in full - which would have been done had they given me the bank details in the first place, I am not happy to back down and pay the money for a horse which I don't have room, time or money for on top of everything else.

Thanks everyone for your opinions and suggestions

Dear Santa, for Christmas could I please have a magic spell that will protect me from buyers from hell?

I would LOVE to hear the other side of this story from the sellers, because I'm wondering just how many times over the last few months they have tried to get you to sign that contract agreeing to pay for her.

 

[EbonyIV]

This is not true. Verbal agreements are the same in law as written contracts. If you put a deposit on a car agreeing to pay the balance, then you owe for the balance. The same is true of this horse.

The key here is in what the agreement was, but the OP has said she agreed to buy the horse, and if this is correct, then they are entitled to sue her for the balance if she will not pay it.

Apologies then, this is not something I am an expert in as I did fore mention.

I think this would be useful reading for the OP and I agree, that the best place to get the right advice would be via a solicitor.

http://www.contractsandagreements.co.uk/law-and-verbal-agreements.html

 

[HarlequinSeren]

I'm on the fence with this one. On the one hand, you agreed to buy the horse, as you said above. So you should have paid in full as soon as possible after you decided and paid that £250 deposit. There should have been contracts and receipts written and signed at that point.
On the other hand though is that not the purpose of a deposit? So that if you change your mind the seller keeps the deposit and the horse? And I'm sure on other threads here I've seen it written that the horse doesn't legally change hands until the balance is paid in full..
I don't know really. Definitely get legal advice. It's difficult though because unless you/they have independent witnesses how can they prove what exactly you all said with regards to the sale of the horse. It could all quite easily turn into a he said/she said debate with no proof either way.

 

[Archiesmummy]

Is it not the purpose of a deposit to hold until full payment can be made. During the deposit period is it not possible for a buyer to change their mind and lose their deposit? This deposit period appears to be excessively long. When I bought Archie I paid a £500.00 deposit. If I changed my mind I would have, quite rightly, forfeited the deposit as recompense for the sellers time and trouble.

However, if the £250 was a down payment would that be more legally binding? A down payment is part payment, whereby you would become owner and the rest of money owed paid at a mutually agreed time.

It is sad and adds a complication that the horse showed signs of pain whilst in your care and you have decided to back out of the sale. I suspect you will come out of this the better off of the two of you, the original owners having a crocked horse handed back although in fairness you have paid for it for some considerable time, saving them livery bills.

Sadly I think both of you were naive. One you should have gotten the horse vetted and perhaps problems would have been highlighted and two, the owner should have had documents drawn up to make both parties fully aware of their positions and obligations.

Had you paid the full price for this horse, what would you be doing now you do not have the time, room or money? Would you have sold him on? It sounds as if you knew your circumstances were going to change before you agreed to buy, deposit left or down payment made.

Poor horse, what will happen to him?

 

[Honey08]

This is another example of why you should never pay in installments! There are never any examples of it going smoothly. When you buy a horse you should decide, get it vetted if you want, pay, and (unless huge issues/problems) take your horse away.

 

[cptrayes]

On the other hand though is that not the purpose of a deposit? So that if you change your mind the seller keeps the deposit and the horse?

Is it not the purpose of a deposit to hold until full payment can be made. During the deposit period is it not possible for a buyer to change their mind and lose their deposit?

The purpose of the deposit is to stop the owner selling the horse to someone else while there is a wait for full payment. Anyone who has taken a deposit and the buyer fails to pay in full, other than in agreed circumstances like a vet failure, can sue the buyer for the balance. But no-one usually bothers because they care too much about the future of the horse, or it's too much trouble.

And I'm sure on other threads here I've seen it written that the horse doesn't legally change hands until the balance is paid in full..

Not owning the horse does not absolve the buyer from paying the balance. The contract is to pay the balance and hence own the horse.

 

[fidleyspromise]

This is another example of why you should never pay in installments! There are never any examples of it going smoothly. When you buy a horse you should decide, get it vetted if you want, pay, and (unless huge issues/problems) take your horse away.

I paid for my first horse in installments and didn't put down a deposit or have a contract BUT I knew the person I bought him from and he was staying on the same yard.
I fell in love with him and same as my horses now, if anything happened to them that they can only be companions, then they still have a home for life with me

Just to let you know that it can go smoothly.

 

[HarlequinSeren]

Cptrayes (sorry can't quote as on my phone),

Surely the point of the deposit (as well as preventing the seller selling the horse to someone else) is so that if the buyer pulls out of the sale for any reason the seller keeps the deposit as well as the horse. As far as I'm aware that's what deposits are for in any purchasing arrangement, not just horses. In property (in Wales at least) the buyer can pull out at any time up until completion, and they would have to forfeit their deposit. So is this not the same principal? Sorry if I'm wrong but that is what I have always been led to believe.
The horse still belongs to the seller until the final balance has been paid in full. So as standard, if a buyer for example wanted to move the horse to another yard when only a deposit had been payed, the seller would be quite able to say no because they still own the horse until they receive the final payment (as long as there's no lwvtb type arrangements, or payment in instalments already agreed). I know I wouldn't consider one of my horses to be legally sold (and therefore no longer my responsibility) until I had final payment for them, mainly tbh for exactly this reason, in case the buyer later decided to pull out and I would be left to pick up the pieces.

IMO I think the seller should have given their bank details as soon as the OP agreed to buy the horse so that full payment could have been made and then this situation would never have had the opportunity to arise. And also the fact that there was no written contracts at the time the OP paid the deposit makes things more difficult. Verbal contracts may hold weight but like I said before, if there's no independent witnesses to exactly what was said (if there was agreement to instalments etc) then it's going to be hard to prove either way.

Personally I think this is also highlighting the importance of getting a horse vetted, as it sounds like the main reason the OP wants to return it is because of the pain issues, but that's by the by now.

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes (sorry can't quote as on my phone),

Surely the point of the deposit (as well as preventing the seller selling the horse to someone else) is so that if the buyer pulls out of the sale for any reason the seller keeps the deposit as well as the horse.

It would be possible to reach this as an agreement but in the vast majority of sales the deposit is to secure the purchase and the sale. If the deposit was made on the basis that the balance was to be paid in full at a later date, eg when the horse passed the vet, then the balance is due whether the buyer changes their mind for another reason or not.

The fact that the vast majority of people don't sue is irrelevant. If they did, the law would be on their side if they can prove it. If you were to look at sales of £1m+ horses, I doubt they would settle quite so easily for the buyer just changing their minds as ordinary sellers with less to lose and an easier resale do.

As far as I'm aware that's what deposits are for in any purchasing arrangement, not just horses. In property (in Wales at least) the buyer can pull out at any time up until completion, and they would have to forfeit their deposit.

Property law is different. In Scotland, the offer is binding once made and accepted. In England, the contract is not made until it is exchanged. In buying other goods, the contract is struck and confirmed by the deposit.

In selling goods like a horse or a car, if you have made a deposit and agreed to pay the balance at a later date then you owe that money whether you change your mind or not.

The horse still belongs to the seller until the final balance has been paid in full.

This may, or may not, be the case. But when ownership of the horse passes is not relevant to owing the money.


You'll note that in the advice that she has received from a solicitor, there is little dispute that she owes the money. The advice instead is that she "counter claims" for the livery and therapy costs of keeping a horse which was not hers. That sounds like dodgy advice to me, since the agreement between the parties was that the keep of the horse would be at her expense once she took responsibility for it.


I'd love to hear the sellers side of this story. By the buyer's own admission they have been trying to get her to pay for some time. I wonder just how long they have been chasing her? She also took on a sound horse, which became unsound in her care and now she wants to return them a crock. Would they really have taken such dodgy payment terms on an unsound horse? It was sound when they sold it. There is also some wierd property dance going on with the stables.

I really feel for the sellers in this case.

 

[Rileyboy]

Honestly as said by others i dont fee for you but the seller, They cld of sold that horse while you changed your mind. That is the worst feeling having someone back out. I would give you maybe some money back wbut would keep the rest for advertising again, if it has moved yard then petrol money etc.

Nothin worse than ditzy people backin out last minute