TURNERS ABBATOIR - RED LION

[Natch]

I have to ask again why the minority think that they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations? Fundraise for them by all means, sign the petitions etc, but if there is something you think is obvious that they aren't doing (like campaigning to close turners) then its worth asking whw or bhs why they aren't already campaigning for it before you do. Chances are there's a good reason that's worth listening to. I worry that well intentioned groups such add the Facebook one mentioned here actually do more harm than good when it comes to actually making a difference to horse welfare.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

I have to ask again why the minority think that they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations? Fundraise for them by all means, sign the petitions etc, but if there is something you think is obvious that they aren't doing (like campaigning to close turners) then its worth asking whw or bhs why they aren't already campaigning for it before you do. Chances are there's a good reason that's worth listening to. I worry that well intentioned groups such add the Facebook one mentioned here actually do more harm than good when it comes to actually making a difference to horse welfare.

Why do you think the "minority" think they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations? No other bodies have done such a fantastic job as the welfare groups you have mentioned. I think these smaller fb groups are doing a fantastic job to alert some ppl who are unaware of such other bigger organisations. I for one had not heard of Hillside until January this year and this was brought to light by social media. These smaller groups share a lot of information and hear a lot of cruelty cases (with appropriate evidence) that are then filtered to the said organisations.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself.

My comment was aimed at the fact that you seem to be including 'blood', 'guts' and the fact that the meat we eat is muscle, in the whole debate surrounding the INHUMANE methods used in the footage of Turners. Why is the fact that there is an abundance of blood and guts raised? It's like saying that it's shocking and puts you off going to hospital because operating theatres have lots of blood and guts in them! Of course there is!!

Also, you are making a judgement on eating meat based on one set of footage from one abbattoir.

The two slaughterhouses I actually shot cattle in were very welfare minded and sympathetic.

I think my quote regarding blood guts, etc is totally justifiable after seeing the footage at Turners and any other abbatoirs footage. Of course this is part and parcel of the process. The hospital quote, I find, is totally irrelevant in the discussion about abbatoirs?

My view to change my eating habits are based on the footage I have seen from the whole processing of the system from field to slaughter house. Yes of course I am aware (as do others) that the meat does not magically appear on the supermarket shelves. But having watched the whole process, the welfare of some animals, the fact that these animals have no choice but to go to slaughter and the fact that they panick like crazy (from the footage I have seen), then yes it has opened mine and a lot of other peoples eyes.

I have called a local meat suppliers who assure me that they stay with their animals until the end, and say it is a peacful process, the animals are calm, i am happy about this. And so will buy meat from my farm shop and not from tesco.

What I am saying is there is a way to do this humanely. The welfare of animals, to the death. see the footage on Hillside for their latested investigations.

 

[Bertieb123]

I think my quote regarding blood guts, etc is totally justifiable after seeing the footage at Turners and any other abbatoirs footage. Of course this is part and parcel of the process. The hospital quote, I find, is totally irrelevant in the discussion about abbatoirs?

My view to change my eating habits are based on the footage I have seen from the whole processing of the system from field to slaughter house. Yes of course I am aware (as do others) that the meat does not magically appear on the supermarket shelves. But having watched the whole process, the welfare of some animals, the fact that these animals have no choice but to go to slaughter and the fact that they panick like crazy (from the footage I have seen), then yes it has opened mine and a lot of other peoples eyes.

I have called a local meat suppliers who assure me that they stay with their animals until the end, and say it is a peacful process, the animals are calm, i am happy about this. And so will buy meat from my farm shop and not from tesco.

What I am saying is there is a way to do this humanely. The welfare of animals, to the death. see the footage on Hillside for their latested investigations.

Crazy horse lady I agree with Moomin about the blood and guts thing the dramatization of the process by media and mis-informed people is what gives others a horrific idea of what goes on in an abattoir. You say having watched the process, the welfare of some animals, and the fact they have no choice but to go to slaughter and they panic like crazy from the FOOTAGE you have seen, perhaps ask your local meat suppliers to arrange a day for you to spend in an abattoir and see it for yourself in the flesh (pardon the pun). Most of the footage people are seeing on the net are focusing on the bad things (and yes it does need highlighting) it is not a true picture of MOST abattoirs.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Crazy horse lady I agree with Moomin about the blood and guts thing the dramatization of the process by media and mis-informed people is what gives others a horrific idea of what goes on in an abattoir. You say having watched the process, the welfare of some animals, and the fact they have no choice but to go to slaughter and they panic like crazy from the FOOTAGE you have seen, perhaps ask your local meat suppliers to arrange a day for you to spend in an abattoir and see it for yourself in the flesh (pardon the pun). Most of the footage people are seeing on the net are focusing on the bad things (and yes it does need highlighting) it is not a true picture of MOST abattoirs.

There seems to be a huge issue with my grammatical format. Perhaps I should have chose a different representation for my argument.

I would never go to an abattoir. Why would I? I have seen enough evidence, yes the majority of it is of course the worst the media can find. I have also seen decent abattoirs .

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Lets not forget the issue at hand here. This company is breaking the law and must be prosecuted.

 

[paisley]

I would never go to an abattoir. Why would I? QUOTE]

And thats absolutely an understandable choice.

However, those of us that have been to an abattoir (including the Red Lion), would tell you there is quite a difference between the sort of footage you have chosen to watch (good and bad) and actually witnessing the process first hand.

You may feel you don't need to gain this sort of experience, and again, understandable, but for me personally, this makes your arguments or point of view about the matter slightly less valid.

 

[Alec Swan]

Lets not forget the issue at hand here. This company is breaking the law and must be prosecuted.

Were every Company, in this Land, who broke the law, prosecuted, then we'd be as bankrupt as the Cypriots.

The word "Must", shouldn't apply. Within the industry, as modest as it is, we need a reinstatement of principles. Shutting down 50% of a National and needed industry will result in far more equine suffering than having a monitored and correctly administered business.

Alec.

 

[Natch]

Is anybody bringing a prosecution against turners though? I am not sure that a court would recognise the evidence of the film, as it was obtained illegally. It is quite possible that there is no legally valid evidence against them, and that a case for prosecution cannot be built. In which case we had better hope that turners are willing to talk to welfare organisations, and that quite possibly won't be hillside (because would you, in their shoes?!).

Crazy horse lady my comment above was made because somebody mentioned the group were calling for turners to be shut down. That's the type of action that isn't what the likes of whw are trying for, the reasons why already having been covers in this thread at length.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself.

.

I for one would not boast online about that

One slaughter house I knew of................... every time they killed you could tell they had killed as there was a pool of blood running down the gutter in the road.


You would never catch me working in an abattoir doing any of the jobs.
*shudders at the thought*

I think CCTV should be in abattoirs and have signed the petition saying so.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Is anybody bringing a prosecution against turners though? I am not sure that a court would recognise the evidence of the film, as it was obtained illegally. It is quite possible that there is no legally valid evidence against them, and that a case for prosecution cannot be built. In which case we had better hope that turners are willing to talk to welfare organisations, and that quite possibly won't be hillside (because would you, in their shoes?!).

Crazy horse lady my comment above was made because somebody mentioned the group were calling for turners to be shut down. That's the type of action that isn't what the likes of whw are trying for, the reasons why already having been covers in this thread at length.

Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances? They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law. If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade. Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?

 

[Crazy horse lady]

I would never go to an abattoir. Why would I? QUOTE]

And thats absolutely an understandable choice.

However, those of us that have been to an abattoir (including the Red Lion), would tell you there is quite a difference between the sort of footage you have chosen to watch (good and bad) and actually witnessing the process first hand.

You may feel you don't need to gain this sort of experience, and again, understandable, but for me personally, this makes your arguments or point of view about the matter slightly less valid.

Was it a "good" day that you went to the red lion? If I chose to not go to witness the killing by sight rather than from footage, what is the difference. Like I said on previous posts I have seen good and bad. Do you really think that by me seeing these killings in the flesh would make a difference? I do not feel the need to gain any visual findings to make my point any more valid. I have seen how killings are done, good and bad. turners are doing it BAD!

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Were every Company, in this Land, who broke the law, prosecuted, then we'd be as bankrupt as the Cypriots.

The word "Must", shouldn't apply. Within the industry, as modest as it is, we need a reinstatement of principles. Shutting down 50% of a National and needed industry will result in far more equine suffering than having a monitored and correctly administered business.

Alec.

Really?

I stand by my word, as this issue is close to my heart. This company must be prosecuted! Are you saying this company supplies 50% of the nations equine slaughter?

Perhaps to reduce the feed of horses to this vile trade would be to reduce the unnecessary breeding of horses, leading to a vast majority of the horses being abandoned and mistreated. But this is another issue...

Are you saying that horses passing through turners gates are correctly administrated?

 

[Bertieb123]

Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances? They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law. If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade. Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?

So if Turners is shut down what do you think is going to happen to all the horses and ponies that usually go through places like this? are we going to rescue them all? or perhaps send them on a horrendous journey through Europe to their final destination? WHW have had a campaign highlighting the horrors of this for a number of years. OR do we try and work with Turners and even open more welfare friendly Horse Abattoirs in the UK, if not believe me we will see more Spindles Farms and the like (one more exposed in Wales I understand). Look at the bigger picture.

 

[Moomin1]

I for one would not boast online about that

One slaughter house I knew of................... every time they killed you could tell they had killed as there was a pool of blood running down the gutter in the road.


You would never catch me working in an abattoir doing any of the jobs.
*shudders at the thought*

I think CCTV should be in abattoirs and have signed the petition saying so.

What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!!

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse. I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods. All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned. They should be correctly monitored.

 

[Bertieb123]

What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!!

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse. I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods. All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned. They should be correctly monitored.

Moomin1 I wish there was a 'LIKE' button on that comment.

 

[Natch]

Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances?

Because we need one less equine slaughterhouse in the UK like we need a hole in the head. Because I don't believe (happy to be corrected) that there is any legally obtained evidence.

What we need, is the facility for every equine in the UK to have it's life ended artificially in an affordable and humane way. We NEED Turners, and we need it to be run well.

They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law.

Where is the evidence that they have been breaking the law for years and years

If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade. Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?

Because without evidence collected LEGALLY Turners cannot be stopped. Nor can they be shut down because you or I think that horse meat slaughtered there has been illegally processed into the human food chain. There needs to be evidence, and the evidence needs to be legal. That's the way our justice system works.

I stand by my word, as this issue is close to my heart. This company must be prosecuted!

You're baying for blood without legally permissable evidence. They CANNOT be prosecuted without it.

Are you saying this company supplies 50% of the nations equine slaughter?

Others may well correct me but I believe that this is correct. I know of two slaughterhouses in England. One in Cheshire (Turners), one down south (Potters). Close Cheshire, the horses who would have had a short journey to Turners would be travelled for an additional what, 4+ hours and a doubled waiting list. Can you see why some of us are so keen to keep Turners open, as long as their activities are monitored and brought up to standard if necessary?

Perhaps to reduce the feed of horses to this vile trade would be to reduce the unnecessary breeding of horses, leading to a vast majority of the horses being abandoned and mistreated. But this is another issue...

It's all part of the same issue. There is a huge need to stop producing "unnecessary" horses.

Are you saying that horses passing through turners gates are correctly administrated?

We can't know on the basis of a few minutes of video evidence, if all the horses are slaughtered incorrectly, if it's 50/50, or if 99% are okay and the ones in the video are the unlucky 1%. NOT that I condone incorrect slaughter methods at all, but in an emotive subject I think it's best to stick to the concrete facts that we know. All we do know is that SOME horses, SOME of the time, are not slaughtered properly, and that the evidence gained is not able to be used in a court of law because it was gained illegally. I am not defending turners, I'm just trying to keep to facts.

The bottom line is this:

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned. They should be correctly monitored.

 

[igglepop]

igglepop, I have never at any time supported any form of lack of care for any animal facing slaughter. Are you threatening me?

Alec.

Hi, not at all, i simply came across a post on fb for you and copied it for you incase you were interested, hence the reason me saying "From FB incase you care." and why i edited the post to remove the name of the person so i could not get reported but stated in the reason for editing "Reason: remove fb persons name, pm me if you want the link to post.". I actually agree with what you are saying but thought you may want to reply to a post directed at you.

 

[Alec Swan]

igglepop,

thank you for your explanation. I obviously misunderstood your words.

Alec.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!!

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse. I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods. All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned. They should be correctly monitored.

Once again! I will reiterate, the horses that are killed in humanely (as in turners footage) do look panicked. The horses that are killed humanely, as in your mention above, do not panick. I ideally this is how it should be.

You have my sympathy for doing such an awful job.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Because we need one less equine slaughterhouse in the UK like we need a hole in the head. Because I don't believe (happy to be corrected) that there is any legally obtained evidence.

What we need, is the facility for every equine in the UK to have it's life ended artificially in an affordable and humane way. We NEED Turners, and we need it to be run well.

Where is the evidence that they have been breaking the law for years and years



Because without evidence collected LEGALLY Turners cannot be stopped. Nor can they be shut down because you or I think that horse meat slaughtered there has been illegally processed into the human food chain. There needs to be evidence, and the evidence needs to be legal. That's the way our justice system works.



You're baying for blood without legally permissable evidence. They CANNOT be prosecuted without it.



Others may well correct me but I believe that this is correct. I know of two slaughterhouses in England. One in Cheshire (Turners), one down south (Potters). Close Cheshire, the horses who would have had a short journey to Turners would be travelled for an additional what, 4+ hours and a doubled waiting list. Can you see why some of us are so keen to keep Turners open, as long as their activities are monitored and brought up to standard if necessary?



It's all part of the same issue. There is a huge need to stop producing "unnecessary" horses.



We can't know on the basis of a few minutes of video evidence, if all the horses are slaughtered incorrectly, if it's 50/50, or if 99% are okay and the ones in the video are the unlucky 1%. NOT that I condone incorrect slaughter methods at all, but in an emotive subject I think it's best to stick to the concrete facts that we know. All we do know is that SOME horses, SOME of the time, are not slaughtered properly, and that the evidence gained is not able to be used in a court of law because it was gained illegally. I am not defending turners, I'm just trying to keep to facts.

The bottom line is this:

Agree and disagree.

 

[Natch]

So if turners does get shut down, what do you think is going to happen to the horses who would otherwise have been sent there?

 

[Crazy horse lady]

So if turners does get shut down, what do you think is going to happen to the horses who would otherwise have been sent there?

I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat. The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds. The pets, again shoot them at home? give them to the hounds. And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses. This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever.

 

[AmyMay]

Hounds with guns. Now there's a thought.

 

[Patterdale]

How many hounds do you think there are???? They'd be super obese on your plan....

Hunts already go out and PTS horses for the hounds. However it would be neither fair nor practical to expect them to do this for free! The hunts wouldn't last very long financially if that happened.

Also, there is no such thing as a 'feral' horse. They all have owners.

The question of 'where would the horses go instead of slaughter?' Has been asked on FB many times, but always just results in a ban for the asker

The truth is that more would be either exported or left to die in the field, neither if which are fair for the horse.

 

[Alec Swan]

I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat. The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds. The pets, again shoot them at home? give them to the hounds. And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses. This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever.

Yes, you're right, it could!!

The problem with presenting horses to the kennels is that because of our new found, righteous and protective world, no part of the animal is to be buried. There are perceived, though minimal, risks of undesirable elements of the carcass, contaminating our world. It's absolute nonsense, of course, and it's the result of our passion for clinging to ever greater legislation which whilst theoretically protecting us, in reality creates an ever increasing burden. Much of this nonsense originates from the EU directives which by and large the French ignore, and we seem to welcome.

I've rather "run-on"! but the result of a non burying policy is that all waste now has to be incinerated at and by licensed premises, and because of cost of installation, and the massive costs of diesel, few kennels can afford such luxury.

Every abattoir in the country has buyers who attend markets to source sheep and cattle. Why should Turners be any different? Why shouldn't horses meet with the same end as do our other farmed livestock?

Alec.

 

[amandap]

Surely it's better for horses to be slaughtered here than travel to the continent live?
With the amount of waste horses in UK surely slaughter is a necessity. For me the way to go is get all slaughter improved, humane and respectful.

If slaughter was banned what on earth would happen to the thousands of waste race, competition and domestic horses that no one wants?

Ps. They can't all live in well meaning peoples living rooms! lol We would end up with an unimaginable welfare problem.

Imho, until breeding is restrained there is no choice but slaughter those unwanted.

 

[AmyMay]

Horses lined up to be shot and processed by the hunt.

Horses lined up to be shot and processed by Turners.

The difference is???

 

[Crazy horse lady]

How many hounds do you think there are???? They'd be super obese on your plan....

Hunts already go out and PTS horses for the hounds. However it would be neither fair nor practical to expect them to do this for free! The hunts wouldn't last very long financially if that happened.

Also, there is no such thing as a 'feral' horse. They all have owners.

The question of 'where would the horses go instead of slaughter?' Has been asked on FB many times, but always just results in a ban for the asker

The truth is that more would be either exported or left to die in the field, neither if which are fair for the horse.

I have seen quite a few ferral horses and ponies lately. This "description" has been quoted on numerous occasions on here.

How about ppl geld the stallions of these horses that are left in fields to stop the over breeding.

 

[Crazy horse lady]

Ask yourself this, where are the horses going to go for slaughter, when Turners does shut down, when he gets the planning permission for his 5 residential dwellings? There are 7 other horse slaughter houses in the UK, who probably do a better job than this place.