Turnout and no hay outside…

[FALABELLA43]

I have got a share horse which I pay to ride about 4 days a week normally…

The lady that owns the yard is in my opinion crazy with no care for the horses at all and it is all for selfish purposes and money reasons… I’d really like to hear what you think and if this is a normal thing?

Today there was a post in the Facebook group for the yard stating that there is no more grass in the fields now and that the horses have nothing to eat whilst they are out so a maximum of 4 hours turnout is recommended but she also recommends that it’s better if they stay in all day and that turnout is just a leg stretch… she stated that if the horses are exercised there is no need for them to go out… she also stated not to expect the horses to go and ride straight after coming in cause they haven’t had anything to eat all day and to feed them first…

Now I grew up in Sweden and I’ve been riding and having horses since I was 3 years old… snow, rain, sun, the horses are out with appropriate rugs, fly spray etc of course and I have grown up making sure the horses have as much time out as humanly possible cause they are horses and they need to move around and grase for most hours of the day to keep their stomachs going… it’s important for them to be turned out to avoid stomach issues, leg issues, abscesses , airway issues etc… unless any issues horses are designed to be outside and I feel like us humans are taking the easy way out… the horses in this yard don’t get let out if it’s raining?? Like what it’s always raining here?? The fields are closed in any snow cause again there is not allowed to be hay out in the field and when I ask why it’s for aesthetic reasons and nothing else… I just feel like if you clean the field up in the spring what’s the issue if the horses get to be horses??

The only person turning out in all weather is the lady that owns my share horse…

The owner of the yard talks about grass not growing and horses don’t have any food… but you’re not allowed to feed in the field… is that a thing? In Sweden they have 4-5 meals a day and 2-4 were fed outside or we’d put a round bale in for them to eat? Problem solved? I really don’t understand this rule at all and it’s making me really angry…

It might be a really controversial topic but aren’t horses supposed to be horses??

 

[Birker2020]

I have got a share horse which I pay to ride about 4 days a week normally…

The lady that owns the yard is in my opinion crazy with no care for the horses at all and it is all for selfish purposes and money reasons… I’d really like to hear what you think and if this is a normal thing?

Today there was a post in the Facebook group for the yard stating that there is no more grass in the fields now and that the horses have nothing to eat whilst they are out so a maximum of 4 hours turnout is recommended but she also recommends that it’s better if they stay in all day and that turnout is just a leg stretch… she stated that if the horses are exercised there is no need for them to go out… she also stated not to expect the horses to go and ride straight after coming in cause they haven’t had anything to eat all day and to feed them first…

Now I grew up in Sweden and I’ve been riding and having horses since I was 3 years old… snow, rain, sun, the horses are out with appropriate rugs, fly spray etc of course and I have grown up making sure the horses have as much time out as humanly possible cause they are horses and they need to move around and grase for most hours of the day to keep their stomachs going… it’s important for them to be turned out to avoid stomach issues, leg issues, abscesses , airway issues etc… unless any issues horses are designed to be outside and I feel like us humans are taking the easy way out… the horses in this yard don’t get let out if it’s raining?? Like what it’s always raining here?? The fields are closed in any snow cause again there is not allowed to be hay out in the field and when I ask why it’s for aesthetic reasons and nothing else… I just feel like if you clean the field up in the spring what’s the issue if the horses get to be horses??

The only person turning out in all weather is the lady that owns my share horse…

The owner of the yard talks about grass not growing and horses don’t have any food… but you’re not allowed to feed in the field… is that a thing? In Sweden they have 4-5 meals a day and 2-4 were fed outside or we’d put a round bale in for them to eat? Problem solved? I really don’t understand this rule at all and it’s making me really angry…

It might be a really controversial topic but aren’t horses supposed to be horses??

I was at a very famous SJ yard for a time with my previous horse and the SJ had rented the yard out whilst he was abroad to this dressage woman.

The woman running the yard let me stay as an assisted DIY basis but would, when questioned, say my horse had been turned out in one of the paddocks when it had not. I knew she was lying because she'd always look at my feet and never my face and also because the groom would tell me "it's been raining today, horses stayed in". The temporary y.o didn't want the paddocks 'muddy' because it was in the contract she had with the SJ that they couldn't look anything but spotless all year round

So instead they'd go on the walker for two hours at a time, twice a day.

 

[meleeka]

I think this is more common than you realise on yards. Plenty of yards don’t allow hay in the field and the reason is sometimes given is to prevent fighting, but it’s usually because where there’s hay, there’s mud.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Alot of livery yards don't allow hay in the fields some for cosmetic reasons as its messy, it can also cause conflict some liveries want to put hay out some don't in large herds it can cause aggressive behaviour with horses fighting over it.

Personally I don't see any reason not to hay in fields but mine are at home so I can do as I please, I do prefer mine out living a natural life but unfortunately when your on someone else yard you have to abide their rules.

 

[ycbm]

It's very common in the UK, sadly.

But also unless the fields are completely brown, the horses are eating. The temperatures so far this winter, barring the last 2 days, have been high enough to keep grass growing. If the field are green but very short it's because the horses are eating off what has grown.

The livery owner is trying to keep the fields from becoming muddy, it sounds like. That's also very common.
.

 

[ycbm]

The lady that owns the yard is in my opinion crazy with no care for the horses at all and it is all for selfish purposes and money reasons… I’d really like to hear what you think and if this is a normal thing?

If she owns the yard I think it's a bit much to call her crazy and selfish with no care at all for the horses. She is at least saying that horses should be exercised if they are not going out, many yard owners don't even do that. If she owns the place she can make whatever rules she likes about how it runs and how much people pay for it, if people don't like it they can leave, or not keep a horse.

Welcome to the forum, even if it was a bit of an explosive first post

 

[twiggy2]

I dont agree with horses being in 24 hrs a day, that said she sounds like one of the more sensible owners saying this, she is saying the horses should be exercised, she is giving owners the choice and she is promoting the idea of not exercising them on an empty stomach.
I dont agree with hay in the fields in fields where all the horses are not owned by one person, individual needs vary and conflict between owners can arise over who puts what hay out, how much each horse gets and who's horse hurt who in the squabbling over the hay.
Am I right in thinking that less rainfall and lower will ter temperatures in Sweden mean less mud and damage to the ground over winter?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have got a share horse which I pay to ride about 4 days a week normally…

The lady that owns the yard is in my opinion crazy with no care for the horses at all and it is all for selfish purposes and money reasons… I’d really like to hear what you think and if this is a normal thing?

Today there was a post in the Facebook group for the yard stating that there is no more grass in the fields now and that the horses have nothing to eat whilst they are out so a maximum of 4 hours turnout is recommended but she also recommends that it’s better if they stay in all day and that turnout is just a leg stretch… she stated that if the horses are exercised there is no need for them to go out… she also stated not to expect the horses to go and ride straight after coming in cause they haven’t had anything to eat all day and to feed them first…

Now I grew up in Sweden and I’ve been riding and having horses since I was 3 years old… snow, rain, sun, the horses are out with appropriate rugs, fly spray etc of course and I have grown up making sure the horses have as much time out as humanly possible cause they are horses and they need to move around and grase for most hours of the day to keep their stomachs going… it’s important for them to be turned out to avoid stomach issues, leg issues, abscesses , airway issues etc… unless any issues horses are designed to be outside and I feel like us humans are taking the easy way out… the horses in this yard don’t get let out if it’s raining?? Like what it’s always raining here?? The fields are closed in any snow cause again there is not allowed to be hay out in the field and when I ask why it’s for aesthetic reasons and nothing else… I just feel like if you clean the field up in the spring what’s the issue if the horses get to be horses??

The only person turning out in all weather is the lady that owns my share horse…

The owner of the yard talks about grass not growing and horses don’t have any food… but you’re not allowed to feed in the field… is that a thing? In Sweden they have 4-5 meals a day and 2-4 were fed outside or we’d put a round bale in for them to eat? Problem solved? I really don’t understand this rule at all and it’s making me really angry…

It might be a really controversial topic but aren’t horses supposed to be horses??

I wouldn't put my horse on that yard. Ours live out 24/7 with hay available as necessary. If the reason they can't have hay out is just aesthetics, would YO allow something like Eazi-grazer bins to hold the hay? She's mad, because the seeds that drop grow into grass in the field. She might not want the land to get churned up round the hay but if the bins are moved every day and there are enough of them, that isn't a problem.
Some of YO's advice isn't complete rubbish, she is right that the horses need to eat before being ridden but if she allowed hay outside........

 

[Ample Prosecco]

My old YO did not allow more than 1 hour a day in winter as a leg stretch. I left for a yard with unrestricted turnout all year round. There is always hay in the mixed herd fields and no-one fights because it's not a scarce resource. They are hayed by the YO in a bugggy several times a day.

It's common in the UK to restrict turnout to protet fields. I don't like it but it's inevitable consequence of a small island, with high land prices and with low livery fees which means that there are too many horses for the amount of land. But reducing numbers makes yards finanically unviable unless you are lucky enough to own large amounts of land. My YO farms sheep and cows and has 200 acres to play around with. But that is rare.

 

[FALABELLA43]

I dont agree with horses being in 24 hrs a day, that said she sounds like one of the more sensible owners saying this, she is saying the horses should be exercised, she is giving owners the choice and she is promoting the idea of not exercising them on an empty stomach.
I dont agree with hay in the fields in fields where all the horses are not owned by one person, individual needs vary and conflict between owners can arise over who puts what hay out, how much each horse gets and who's horse hurt who in the squabbling over the hay.
Am I right in thinking that less rainfall and lower will ter temperatures in Sweden mean less mud and damage to the ground over winter?

Trust me we get plenty of rain and mud in Sweden too and it’s never an issue.. we have kept our horses all year round in the same field all year round and there has always been grass in the summer…

When it comes to feeding hay in the field with multiple horses from different owners that’s also never ever been an issue for us… we’ve moved our horses around in Sweden a lot and most of the times been in fields with horses from different owners and as long as you put out hay piles more than the number of horses in the fields and spread it around there has never been issues… they might fight them off but then they will go to different piles…

The lower temperatures make the ground freeze a bit more than here but trust me there is the same amount of rain and mud I just feel like we’ve adapted a lot better to what we can do to make sure the horses stay out and be horses as much as we can… I just feel like a lot of excuses are made here which is not in the best interest of the horses…

 

[FALABELLA43]

I wouldn't put my horse on that yard. Ours live out 24/7 with hay available as necessary. If the reason they can't have hay out is just aesthetics, would YO allow something like Eazi-grazer bins to hold the hay? She's mad, because the seeds that drop grow into grass in the field. She might not want the land to get churned up round the hay but if the bins are moved every day and there are enough of them, that isn't a problem.
Some of YO's advice isn't complete rubbish, she is right that the horses need to eat before being ridden but if she allowed hay outside........

Yes I am really contemplating stopping riding there and share the horse anymore cause it goes against my morals and I don’t know how I feel about supporting it anymore…

I’ve given so many suggestions that I’ve used before and they just get shut down… the owner of the horse doesn’t even feed hay in the morning just feed and then shove them out the field without grass for a full day and give them hay that runs out within a few hours and does not want to hear when I say they need to eat hay and have their stomachs going for 20-22 hours a day… they basically get fed hay once a day in the evening…

I don’t know it just doesn’t feel right at all…

 

[criso]

I think part of the problem is that land is so expensive and under pressure from other needs that many yards have more horses than ideal. The other side to that is many people would not be prepared to pay what livery would cost if you drastically reduced numbers of horses per acre.

Re feeding in the field, it gets difficult due to different needs. Some of the needs:- a horse that can't even be near hay even soaked due to allergies; another whose stomach can't cope with haylage; a horse on high calorie rich forage to put on weight and another overweight and a laminitis risk who needs 24 hour soaked hay.

Then you have the owners some of whom are happy to pay for extra hay to go in the field and some aren't. When I had a horse living out 24/7 I had to bring him into a separate area each day to give him hay as the the other owners didn't want to.

It's not a uniquely UK thing though. There are various systems around the world with different levels of turnout.

 

[Cortez]

How are the horses on the yard? Do they have any problems because of the regime?

 

[dottylottie]

whilst we all want our horses out as much as possible, i do sympathise with yard owners being put in an impossible position with winter turnout sometimes.

if there aren’t enough fields to rotate, chances are by putting hay out and in turn having the horses out more often, the fields will end up being absolutely wrecked and worse off.

i’m very lucky that where i am, we all have our “own” fields that we’re allowed to manage as we see fit, but a couple of weeks ago we all got told to keep them in for a week or so until the fields had chance to drain off. we can and do put hay out in the fields, but there’s no denying that it makes a mess and the ground conditions worse!

whilst less than ideal, i actually think your yard is better than many over here - i know of loads of yards local to me, and only a few of them have winter field turnout! at least in my area, i take it as a given that winter turnout is going to be more for mental well-being than anything else, and if the horses aren’t all milling at the gate looking fed up then they’ve probably found something to eat!

ETA: my ponies are in pens still from being on box rest, and they look trashed no matter how often i move them around, but the hay piles are still being pretty much ignored because there’s grass to pick at

 

[FALABELLA43]

How are the horses on the yard? Do they have any problems because of the regime?

There have been a lot of leg issues for standing still so much… lots of abscesses and the horse that I ride gets really swollen legs from standing still all the time… one of the horses the owner of the horse I ride has got a lot of feathers and get reoccurring more issues in the winter and stomping and scratching like crazy but she refuses to wash or shave the feathers off… last year she did shave them after a lot of arguing with some other people at the yard and honestly I’ve never seen legs like it… so swollen and so many wounds on that poor horses legs…

But yes a lot of leg issues and runny tummies I’d say! And that’s not just for the horses the owner of the horse I ride that goes for a lot of leg issues all around the yard…

 

[FALABELLA43]

whilst we all want our horses out as much as possible, i do sympathise with yard owners being put in an impossible position with winter turnout sometimes.

if there aren’t enough fields to rotate, chances are by putting hay out and in turn having the horses out more often, the fields will end up being absolutely wrecked and worse off.

i’m very lucky that where i am, we all have our “own” fields that we’re allowed to manage as we see fit, but a couple of weeks ago we all got told to keep them in for a week or so until the fields had chance to drain off. we can and do put hay out in the fields, but there’s no denying that it makes a mess and the ground conditions worse!

whilst less than ideal, i actually think your yard is better than many over here - i know of loads of yards local to me, and only a few of them have winter field turnout! at least in my area, i take it as a given that winter turnout is going to be more for mental well-being than anything else, and if the horses aren’t all milling at the gate looking fed up then they’ve probably found something to eat!

ETA: my ponies are in pens still from being on box rest, and they look trashed no matter how often i move them around, but the hay piles are still being pretty much ignored because there’s grass to pick at

I’ve not realised how bad it is here… as much as I can understand it’s a tricky situation I do feel like a lot of decisions are made from a perspective of the owners point of view rather than the horses…

The owner of the yard here used to have a massive probably 10 acre field at the back of the yard and a few other fields that she owned but she’s sold them off and now leasing fields about a 10 min walk from the yard which a lot of people don’t want to do so they let the horses stay in for their convenience instead…

The thing is as well when they are inside there isn’t enough mental stimulation for them at all… they get their hay and feed twice a day but nothing else… they get their hay in haynets but constantly eating from haynets rather than eating from the floor is going to cause neck problems in the long run and the whole thing of being able to roll in the mud, eating and foraging of the grass is taken from them… I only ride 4 days a week and he doesn’t really get ridden much else so that’s another 3 days inside where he’s not getting out…

I just don’t think it’s fair..

 

[honetpot]

Yards tend to stock at more than the recomended horses per acre, because land is expensive, and they are trying to make a living and that means making money. Some yards if they have enough space have winter and summer grazing, winter grazing is a thrash paddock and has all summer to recover. One local to me does this but the acreage is sub divided in to one or two horses per plot.
No one likes mud, mud seems to infer that you are not managing your land properly, and animals on it are not well kept, when often this is not the case. I would just make sure they have enough hay overnight so there is a bit left over, and let them pick at what they can in the day. I find if there is enough hay in the turnout they never fall out, I use round bales in a net,they are never hungry, and a bale of straw as well to pick at.

 

[FALABELLA43]

Yards tend to stock at more than the recomended horses per acre, because land is expensive, and they are trying to make a living and that means making money. Some yards if they have enough space have winter and summer grazing, winter grazing is a thrash paddock and has all summer to recover. One local to me does this but the acreage is sub divided in to one or two horses per plot.
No one likes mud, mud seems to infer that you are not managing your land properly, and animals on it are not well kept, when often this is not the case. I would just make sure they have enough hay overnight so there is a bit left over, and let them pick at what they can in the day. I find if there is enough hay in the turnout they never fall out, I use round bales in a net,they are never hungry, and a bale of straw as well to pick at.

As you say it’s going to be muddy whatever you do… they are heavy animals in the end of the day and the rain and clay is just not a good match at all.. there is no way you can get away from it unless you take it away from the wellbeing of the horses…

In Sweden it’s very common with winter and summer fields but we also have had horses in the same field all year round and there is still grass in spring and summer and everything.

I just feel like if it’s your field and you’re the sole user if you make sure to manage the field correctly there is no issue if you want to feed outside… the thing is and I put this in a previous post but the horses owned by the lady I ride with only gives them hay in the evening… they get feed in the morning but then go out and sometimes don’t get turned in until 7 in the evening etc… there would be a whole day without any food except for the tiny amount of grass in the field which is none existent at this point…

The other day I got up at around 7 in the evening and one of her horses had finished his hay… that would mean he’d be inside until he got fed around 7:30 in the morning with nothing and then get some feed and go outside the whole day… if I wasn’t up no one would have fed him…

We’ve always had a round bale out for our horses and there has never been an issue… moved space when the bale was finished to avoid too much mud in one space etc… if there was hay we’d throw piles out more than the amount of horses and far apart so if there was an issue they could move aside…

And then in spring if needed we’d clean it up…

 

[honetpot]

As you say it’s going to be muddy whatever you do… they are heavy animals in the end of the day and the rain and clay is just not a good match at all.. there is no way you can get away from it unless you take it away from the wellbeing of the horses…

In Sweden it’s very common with winter and summer fields but we also have had horses in the same field all year round and there is still grass in spring and summer and everything.

I just feel like if it’s your field and you’re the sole user if you make sure to manage the field correctly there is no issue if you want to feed outside… the thing is and I put this in a previous post but the horses owned by the lady I ride with only gives them hay in the evening… they get feed in the morning but then go out and sometimes don’t get turned in until 7 in the evening etc… there would be a whole day without any food except for the tiny amount of grass in the field which is none existent at this point…

The other day I got up at around 7 in the evening and one of her horses had finished his hay… that would mean he’d be inside until he got fed around 7:30 in the morning with nothing and then get some feed and go outside the whole day… if I wasn’t up no one would have fed him…

We’ve always had a round bale out for our horses and there has never been an issue… moved space when the bale was finished to avoid too much mud in one space etc… if there was hay we’d throw piles out more than the amount of horses and far apart so if there was an issue they could move aside…

And then in spring if needed we’d clean it up…

Its mainly a land money issue, and balancing the books. It may not be best practice, and I do not like it, but unless there are a glut of livery yards its not going to change. The only livery yard I have been on where we had enough winter grazing, was a farmer who had more land than he knew what to do with, so his spare around the house was used for shooting, fishing, and the liveries were just pocket money.

 

[Cortez]

I wonder how many people criticizing their livery yard's policies has ever had to manage land and grazing over an extended period? It's easy to say that land will recover after being trashed, and that is often (but not always) true, but it takes extensive work to restore heavily poached and compacted soils. Horses don't tend to do well in mud, and they certainly don't like being left out in it. There are many conditions caused by being out in wet and mud (mud fever, rainscald, hoof abscesses, softened hoof/sole) that are potentially as bad as or worse than those resulting from being kept in. And whilst it is convenient to blame yard owners, ultimately if your horse is being left in a stable for too long that is the owner's responsibility. No horse should be kept confined for 24,23,20,18, however many hours, so the yard owner is quite correct to tell people they should exercise their horses appropriately.

As for hay out in fields, hay trodden into mud is an absolute nightmare to clean up and can result in extensive bare patches that don't regrow, even with reseeding, which is most likely why yards don't allow it.

Really you sound as if you'd be better off buying your own land and managing it as you see fit, or moving to a yard that better aligns with your theories. Good luck with that.

 

[twiggy2]

I wonder how many people criticizing their livery yard's policies has ever had to manage land and grazing over an extended period? It's easy to say that land will recover after being trashed, and that is often (but not always) true, but it takes extensive work to restore heavily poached and compacted soils. Horses don't tend to do well in mud, and they certainly don't like being left out in it. There are many conditions caused by being out in wet and mud (mud fever, rainscald, hoof abscesses, softened hoof/sole) that are potentially as bad as or worse than those resulting from being kept in. And whilst it is convenient to blame yard owners, ultimately if your horse is being left in a stable for too long that is the owner's responsibility. No horse should be kept confined for 24,23,20,18, however many hours, so the yard owner is quite correct to tell people they should exercise their horses appropriately.

As for hay out in fields, hay trodden into mud is an absolute nightmare to clean up and can result in extensive bare patches that don't regrow, even with reseeding, which is most likely why yards don't allow it.

Really you sound as if you'd be better off buying your own land and managing it as you see fit, or moving to a yard that better aligns with your theories. Good luck with that.

I agree, I wouldn't have a horse if I couldn't turn out with grass or hay avaliable but I also wonder how many people complain about the winter turn out options and then complain if the fields are rutted and bare in the summer, I have also seen people allow fields to be completely trashed Iver winter and then move yards in spring complaining about the state of the fields.

 

[Goldenstar]

I never put hay in the field, my horses live out when it’s possible and come in for some hay daily, if they are in at night they go out in the day and move about looking for food by the end of February there’s very little in the winter field .
They have to get on with. Theres no point in turning horses out to move about and having them standing in one place stuffing their faces.
At the moment we have them in at night that’s unusual but we gone from minus five with snow to everywhere flooded.It’s going to be a challenging winter to manage the land .
Poaching is bad for the soil structure it does not just recover particularly where you have red clay with little top soil.
Horses being hard worked can be managed without turnout and sometimes that’s not a bad option as long as you have riders prepared and able to work them enough.
It’s not easy to manage horses in winter in wet conditions like this.
What works one place won’t another.

 

[Surbie]

I’ve not realised how bad it is here… as much as I can understand it’s a tricky situation I do feel like a lot of decisions are made from a perspective of the owners point of view rather than the horses…

The owner of the yard here used to have a massive probably 10 acre field at the back of the yard and a few other fields that she owned but she’s sold them off and now leasing fields about a 10 min walk from the yard which a lot of people don’t want to do so they let the horses stay in for their convenience instead…

The thing is as well when they are inside there isn’t enough mental stimulation for them at all… they get their hay and feed twice a day but nothing else… they get their hay in haynets but constantly eating from haynets rather than eating from the floor is going to cause neck problems in the long run and the whole thing of being able to roll in the mud, eating and foraging of the grass is taken from them… I only ride 4 days a week and he doesn’t really get ridden much else so that’s another 3 days inside where he’s not getting out…

I just don’t think it’s fair..

My cousin keeps her horse on a DIY yard in Norway. The horses have to be out by 7am (with hay) and come in around 3-4pm. All winter. The rest of my largely non-horsey family think I am bonkers for getting up at 5.30 to help her when I am over there, but it's one of my holiday highlights.

I'm at a yard with unrestricted turnout in theory - if you can get down the track you can turn out. Many live out 24/7 and those fields are hayed each night by the YO. They are muddy, but they do bounce back because we aren't overstocked.

I do know several yards locally that shut their fields/tiny individual paddocks in winter and use walkers or an hour's turnout in the arena instead. It's not something I would choose for my horse.

It is a tricky situation you're in - unfortunately you are sharing rather than owning or loaning so I am assuming your influence is limited. And while in an ideal world you might be able to change things, this might be a situation you have to walk away from.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Mine have hay in the field but I have hard standing so the nets are put on there, on occasion I have just chucked it on the grass when it's snowed as hard standing gets slippy so don't want them on it, the hay does make a real mess though afterwards and I have to go out and pick up what is left.