Twin foals

Whilst we all appreciate that you are taking the advice of your vet and being the professional, who wouldn't take advice from your vet, please be aware that all the posters on this thread only have the interests of your mare, her unborn foal(s) and you, at heart. As SSM says, seeing a mummified foetus is hideous! Even a premature foal is hideous and it's worse when they are born without their hair and their feet not fully developed (these are the last things to develop in the womb), yet are alive and fighting, but you have to put them down, as they are completely non-viable. It's utterly heartbreaking!!! Let alone hideously expensive! There is enough risk involved in producing a single live foal!
 
Having lost my much longed for foal at birth, then having my mare hospitalized for 3 days because of the distress it caused her, there is no way i would even consider for 1 second letting her continue with a twin pregnancy.
 
I have followed this post with interest as I am surprised that despite the VERY best advice being offered as yet, there still seems to be resistance to follow what has been suggested which is to act immediately and abort the pregnancy.
It seems to me if you ask a question, and the feedback is consistent why bother asking the question in the first place?

Horses are very emotive, and breeding can be risky. While you might want to follow your heart - please follow your head. There are potentially three lives at risk here which you are responsible for - please lower the stakes for your mare and do what must be done.
 
I am sorry that you didn't like the tone of my post, but I had hoped that it would at the very least get you to take note of all the replies offered. I know I am new here, but have lurked a long time, however there sometimes seems to be a culture of asking a question, reading the responses from those who have been there then totally ignoring, deprecating even, the answers and doing what you were always going to do in the first place.

If you didn't like what I said then I'm perfectly sure you won't like some of those that follow on.

I don't know of this new technique, and I am always willing and wanting to learn, so any more information on it, and its outcome in this case would be welcomed.
 
djhope120 said:
Hi, I had my mare re scanned today, and she is still carrying both twins, alive and growing. The vet has suggested scanning her again at 100 days to see what is going on and see if she looses one naturally between now and then, she is currently 47 days
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If they're on separate horns, that's bad advice IMHO!! The likelihood of her losing one naturally before 100 days is LOW - which leaves you facing a late termination - which is NOT without risk!

I see your vet has recommended ultrasound guided twin reduction - although your description of the technique is more than a little woolly!

She phoned me this morning after being in contact with a vet who uses a new technique at removing a twin using a very long needle which basically goes in one side of the mare and sucks out the fluid surrounding the mare. Although this is a new technique apparently the success rate has been high. My vet has organised the equipment and the vet for monday.
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It's actually not THAT new! Versions of it have been around for nearly as long as u/s machines. It's MOST likely to be successful in a pregnancy of 45-50 days - but I would want to know what % success rate this vet has had with the technique and what it's going to cost!!
 
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OP please dont take the response's as critisisum, I send my mares away to a good stud because I do not have the experience of breeding that studs do AND the stud I use have a wonderful vet so I know I will not find myself in this situation.
My primary concern when breeding is my mares, if I lose the foal so be it, as long as the mare is ok.

I honestly think you should seek a second opinion about your mare. Just because a vet practice does AI and stud work, doesnt mean they are any good. This is the reason I dont use my own vets for stud work on my own mares.
 
I'm a great believer in fate. I had a stillborn foal from a beloved maiden mare last year. Totally heartbroken,and not over it yet. I have put her back in foal and she will (if holds) be foaling down at stud next time.

I honestly believe that you have your mare's best interests and that you seem to trust your vet. Twin pregnancies can work,but it is rare as you well know.

I would let the vet do her job,if she wishes to abort at 100 days then go with it. Otherwise,keep a close eye,send mare away (early) for foaling to ensure everything is being done.

In short,let nature take its course,it may surprise you....
 
Im a little confused as to why people think i want twins, im doing everything i can to get rid of atleast one foal, hence this other technique, which i was told is new, apologies if not but i hadnt heard of it before so trusted what i was told.

Please do not assume either that i have never seen dead foals/animals before. I grew up and live on a farm and strongly believe that if you cant deal with deadstock DONT have livestock.

The last thing i want to do is cause any harm to this mare, hence we are doing all we can, no expense spared. She has succesfully had 4 foals before and we managed to look after all concerned perfectly well!

I posted on here for advice, and am greatful for ALL opnions and have taken alot on board regardless of what people think. Its such a shame that many 'horsey people' , and i dont mean everybody by any means, instantly jump to the conclusion that i am an idiot, with no regard for my mare or her unborn foals, if that were the case i wouldnt have had her scanned in the first place and i certainly wouldnt be trying everything possible before terminating the pregnancy.
 
djhope120 said:
Im a little confused as to why people think i want twins, We don't think you want twins, we think that's what you will end up with and possibly losing all of them in the process. im doing everything i can to get rid of atleast one foal, The obvious is to abort! hence this other technique, which i was told is new, what are the percentages?, apologies if not but i hadnt heard of it before so trusted what i was told.

Please do not assume either that i have never seen dead foals/animals before. I grew up and live on a farm and strongly believe that if you cant deal with deadstock DONT have livestock so if you grew up with it you should know how deal with it.

The last thing i want to do is cause any harm to this mare, hence we are doing all we can, no expense spared. She has succesfully had 4 foals before and we managed to look after all concerned perfectly well!

I posted on here for advice, and am greatful for ALL opnions and have taken alot on board regardless of what people think. Its such a shame that many 'horsey people' , and i dont mean everybody by any means, instantly jump to the conclusion that i am an idiot, with no regard for my mare or her unborn foals, if that were the case i wouldnt have had her scanned 16 and 40 days what is that all about? in the first place and i certainly wouldnt be trying everything possible before terminating the pregnancy. what by waiting till 100 days bloody rediculous! (SP).
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Sorry don't know how to pick out the bits I wanted to comment on.
 
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Well said Simsar but I feel we are wasting our breath.

Anyone who knowingly lets twins go this far is irresponsible in my book.

PG'ing should have occured at the 40+ day scan when they were still present. The OP may say they care about the mare but their behaviour is showing just the opposite.

As for 'letting nature take it's course...you may be supprised' yep thats true it's an awful supprise to walk in to check the mare and find a dead foal/foals and or mare.

Enough said I think.
 
reading this has made me so sad.

im not a breeder and had one chance to breed ' a horse of a lifetime' last year. i had 3 scans before 30 days and none of them picked up twins. my mare, who is my geldings dam, aborted twins in april. i was in australia looking after my dying father, so my poor non-horsey OH and my (brilliant) YO and a livery had to deal with a *very* distressing view in the stable and the mare was very very very upset. She retained her foetal membranes and was quite ill for around a week. I had no idea she was carrying twins.

I would never have wished that on the mare, my OH the livery or the YO. Why on earth anyone would want to risk what my mare went through knowing that there were twins is beyond me.

:(
 
I had no idea that twins were so risky.
A friends highland mare had twins and all went well there, i don't think they knew it was going to be twins until later though. There was quite a big deal made about them because it was so rare. There was a feature done in Scottish farmer about them. He did say at the time that they were really lucky at how it all turned out.
I hope all goes well for your mare, whatever you decide to do.
 
My mare had been put in foal before I had her. The result was 2 chestnut colts- no scan. She misscarried them at 10 mths, the previous owner was very upset. So was the mare, as they didn't find the one foal at first as she had buried it in her bed!
It upset the mare alot, the owner put her up for sale as she couldn't afford to keep her and so I bought her.
I put her in foal a few yrs later and just one foal but I had scans to make sure, 40 and 50 days too!
If you want to wait, its up to you but I would rather lose the foals than the mare. I have seen many orphan foals and mares that lose foals, very distressing for both and the humans involved.
just my opinion
 
well breeding is a very risky game.i would never do it again! if breeding intentionally buy a good stud/vet package which gives you all the scans you need til you know the mare is in foal, safely (as safe as you can be!) with ONE foal! and if unsure get asnother scan! dead mares and dead foals are not good and should be avoidable! but the op is obviously used to dealing with dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? so hoping all will be well! second opinions are always good if in doubt! vets dont like you to question or debate their diagnosis but at the end of the day it is you paying the bill.
 
has anyone actually thought that twins CAN survive? Risky,yes. But we are not vets. The OP has done what she can.....she has gone under veterinary advice. It's what we all would do.

Some ppl are becoming too belligerent and 'all knowing' on this forum and it must be upsetting for the OP who came on here for constructive advice,not a barrage of insulting comments about her vet and indeed her way of dealing with this.

This post has an awful 'bitchy livery yard' air about it.

*sits back and waits*
 
At the end of the day we rely on professional help. The vet knows better than anyone what is going on. We can question our vet and get a second vets opinion but we do not know better than them.
It is easy to give advice but as none of us are vets who have seen the mare i can understand the op taking the vets advice.
I do wish you luck and the mare well. I do hope it all turns out alright in the end.
I do think some support is needed here for the op.
 
I am sure that the OP can use all the support she can muster, but why ask if you think that your vet knows better than a huge percentage of equine vets who would tell you was basic - twins, abort if nature hasn't done it for you. Yes twins can survive, people on here have had experiences of that, but they all agree that they were indeed the fortunate ones.

If the OP has live twin foals she will be with that group.
 
Cazza525 said:
has anyone actually thought that twins CAN survive? Risky,yes. But we are not vets. The OP has done what she can.....she has gone under veterinary advice. It's what we all would do.

Some ppl are becoming too belligerent and 'all knowing' on this forum and it must be upsetting for the OP who came on here for constructive advice,not a barrage of insulting comments about her vet and indeed her way of dealing with this.

This post has an awful 'bitchy livery yard' air about it.

*sits back and waits*
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The OP was given constructive advice from knowledgable people. this twin pregnancy has already been allowed to progress too far. The OP's vet is in the minority, I can't think of another single person in horse breeding who would knowingly allow a twin pregnancy to progress. If you can't safely remove one then remove them both is definitely the usual action.

Disagreeing with somebody, even quite strongly, is not being 'bitchy' If you think it is that says more about you than the other posters here.
 
Cazza525 said:
has anyone actually thought that twins CAN survive? Risky,yes. But we are not vets. The OP has done what she can.....she has gone under veterinary advice. It's what we all would do.
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Yes, twins have survived but they are in the minority, a very small percentage too but they are certainly not the norm and certainly, if known about early enough, it is not the norm to continue the pregnancy owing to the dangers to both mare and foals; it's certainly not something that is strived for in a mare's pregnancy, they're the last thing anyone wants.
As my vet said to me last night when I told him about this, his view is the vet is not putting the mare's best interests at the centre of this pregnancy - which is what most of us have been saying all along.
If you think this is coming across as belligerent and all-knowing, I can assure you it is not, it is done with the mare's best interests at heart and those of the owner because to lose a foal or the mare is heartbreaking enough which we have seen far too many times this year for people who have taken every possible care so to allow the risk of twins seems foolhardy in the extreme.

...and it must be upsetting for the OP who came on here for constructive advice,not a barrage of insulting comments about her vet and indeed her way of dealing with this.

This post has an awful 'bitchy livery yard' air about it.

*sits back and waits*
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We HAVE given our advice which she has chosen not to take.
End of story. We all hope we are proved wrong as I said in my earlier post but I for one, am not holding my breath.
 
Maesfen said:
We HAVE given our advice which she has chosen not to take.
End of story. We all hope we are proved wrong as I said in my earlier post but I for one, am not holding my breath.
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... and hope no-one here has to ever say "told you so" - because none of the people who told the OP so want to hear about yet another dead mare & foal story after the year a lot of people have had... :confused:
 
I really do hope nobody says 'I told you so' or has that attitude because, I for one, would not want the OP driven away from here and the experienced advice available if she should need it; I hope we can all be bigger than that, put this behind us and start again.
The advice given on this forum, not only with this thread but many others, is second to none, it would be a great shame if the OP thought she wasn't welcome to come on here again if she does indeed, need further help with anything.

I keep saying 'she' but don't actually know so hope I haven't offended the OP!
 
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One of my YO's mares (in Argentina- coincidentally Sofanor's mum although the year prior to his birth) was carrying twins and the vet did an Embryo Transfer on one of them and so he was able to keep both. They were a colt and a filly and were very very similar except the colt was a chestnut and the filly a bay.
Would this be a viable option for you? I know ET is rather expensive in the UK and comparatively very cheap in Argentina.
 
Maesfen said:
I really do hope nobody says 'I told you so' or has that attitude because, I for one, would not want the OP driven away from here and the experienced advice available if she should need it; I hope we can all be bigger than that, put this behind us and start again.
The advice given on this forum, not only with this thread but many others, is second to none, it would be a great shame if the OP thought she wasn't welcome to come on here again if she does indeed, need further help with anything.

I keep saying 'she' but don't actually know so hope I haven't offended the OP!
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Can I say I never meant anybody would actually say "I told you so", it was more of a figure of speech. And agreed, I hope everyone always feel free & comfortable asking for advice.

Papafrita - that is very interresting. I asked my vet whether that was possible and he said the likelyhood of infection/abortion of the twin remaining in the mare during the procedure was too high to take the risk... But of course, like all these things, it probably depends on the conditions and the knowledge/experience of the vet carrying out the procedure.
 
GinnieRedwings said:
Papafrita - that is very interresting. I asked my vet whether that was possible and he said the likelyhood of infection/abortion of the twin remaining in the mare during the procedure was too high to take the risk... But of course, like all these things, it probably depends on the conditions and the knowledge/experience of the vet carrying out the procedure.
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Well, my YO is not known for the standard of care he gives his broodmares so I guess he thought it was worth the risk. That said, the vets have performed several (successful) ETs this year on the yard and out of the back of their car, so they are a fairly canny bunch.
 
cazza525 said:
has anyone actually thought that twins can survive? yes but they are probably not diagnosed risky,yes. But we are not vets no but we have seen enough scans and understand what goes on as breeders. the op has done what she can.....she has gone under veterinary advice yes sack the vet. It's what we all would do er no!.
some ppl are becoming too belligerent and 'all knowing' we are not all knowing but we are experienced in this matter on this forum and it must be upsetting for the op who came on here for constructive advice and we have all advised for the safety of the mare,not a barrage of insulting comments about her vet and indeed her way of dealing with this.

This post has an awful 'bitchy livery yard' air about it. i think you will find we are mostly breeders not livery! We are just all shocked as to what she wants to do can you not see that.
*sits back and waits* waits for what an argument
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andy pandy your advise would help right now can you comment please??
 
I would put the welfare of my mare above anything. I can't imagine losing her. Putting her in foal at all would not be worth the risk to me, let alone allowing such a potentially dangerous state of affairs continue.

Cut your losses while they are small, and consider buying a foal. There are plenty out there. Do you really need to breed yet another? Where are her previous foals now?
 
djhope120,

I was rather hoping that following your last post, you may have recovered some lost ground. Apparently not! I may be alone, but I understood your response.

As you would seem to have an agricultural background, you have to understand that others don't view horses as most would cattle. The success rate of equine live twins being reared is so remote, as to be not worthy of any consideration.

Before we had ultrasound scanning, twins were considered to be very rare. From this, we can conclude that twinning was just as likely then, but the "success rate" through to birth was extremely low. Few today, I would suggest, would be prepared to risk the eventual disaster. If there is an embryo separated by being in the second horn, then I would think that growth, through to a stage where risk became a factor, would be far more likely than that of twins which are lying beside each other. Those twins, which are effectively as one, would be far more likely to produce one normal foal, with a possible mummified remains of the twin, the food supply being inadequate to supply both foals.

Sheep to a greater extent, and cattle to a lesser are designed to feed twins. Horses aren't, and in that I would suggest lies the problem. If a mare isn't designed to feed twins, then the chances of her producing surviving foals would be exceptionally rare.

Others have rather "told" you what you should do. I wont, but what I would say to you is that if your mare were mine, and you were still at the stage where emptying her were an option, then that is what I would do. With an embryo in "each" horn, and I'm not a vet, but I would suggest that you're running a dreadful risk. It's your choice.

Maesfen, I thought that your last post (well the last that I read!), was both charitable, and very well put.

Alec.
 
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