Twitch...... Cruel or better than fighting?

Just felt I had to reply to whoever said they didnt understand why horses were afraid of the vet and seemed to suggest it was the vet's fault. I have never in my life seen so many ill-mannered bargey horses as I have in the UK among the "amateur" population. (most professionals have better handling skills in my experience).
Countless times i have turned up to examine of inject a horse and be told hes so good or "he's an angel" only to have it barge through the door, walk all over the client or attempt to double barrel me. I always start with having a chat with the horse (which they always accept) so its not "me" they object to. Having spoken to many many vets this is a problem every one has come across. A couple of senior vets have said they find this is because people do not tell their horses who is boss - they seem to forget that horses are big potentially dangerous animals and should (to an extent) to be seen as such. I've seen so many of these owners then being dragged back to the field afterwards - and never have i ever seen any of them make the horse stand still until it behaves before allowing it to walk on. To be fair, I would bet that many of these people with badly behaved animals wouldnt accept that behaviour from other people's horses but its hard to be hard on your own horses. Basically what I mean is most of our vets cant stand horses who dont behave but some of their own horses behave very similarly! :P

As regards the twitch, as long as it isnt left on for too long and the horse is given a break every 5 minutes if its needed for longer then twitching is a very usefultool. It doesnt work for all horses, some just blow up and for those, sedation is the best solution. Any horse twitched or under sedation can still kick so handlers should never stand in front and should always beware. However I think sedation is overused and twitching is definitely undeused in this country. Every yard should have a twitch but in my experience very very few have, and even fewer know how to use them correctly. As for vets insisting on using them. You might think your horse is a saint but an experienced vet can often assess a horse's attitude within a split second of walking onto the yard (just due to the number of different horses they see every day) and in most cases if he thinks it should have a twicth then it probably should (of course any good vet will ask the owner about the horse's temperament too). Another thing to think of is the vet is the person in control, it is their responsibility to ensure no one gets hurt - if that requires twitching, sedating etc then so be it. Better a quiet albeit probably uncomfortable horse for 5 minutes than a seriously injured handler and a courtcase.

I await the onslaught. :D
 
i don't see why you should "await an onslaught"

bad manners in horses/ponies seems the norm these days..you only have to read threads on here daily of people who have NO IDEA how to control their horses.

Having said that, no, i don't like the use of a twitch
 
My vets always amaze me when they come. They all seem totally terrified of horses (and it is a purely horse vets). I asked one, once, when she gave ME the staple remover, why she was so scared of my TBx who she'd already sedated and had me pin in the corner, and she said because she gets kicked once a week and bitten at least twice a day.

Who wouldnt be scared if owners let their animals behave like that?

I'm no better than anyone else but my yearling behaves for ANYONE. Dentist said she was the best behaved youngster she'd ever done (and shes on here so she'll hopefully back me up ;) haha), back lady loved her, vets have injected her twice now and shes stood like a dream both times. The farmkey lady couldnt get over her just being stood there and when she started to get bored, a quick growl from me made her stand like a statue again.

Its no wonder vets hate the horses they're dealing with if owners let their animals behave like that!
 
ust felt I had to reply to whoever said they didnt understand why horses were afraid of the vet and seemed to suggest it was the vet's fault.
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No - I wondered if some vets were incompetent - or in fact the owners were incompetent.

For every brilliant, brilliant, brilliant equine and large animal vet - there are several who are just bloody useless. But probably not more so than many of us amatuer owners, who as NP says, seem to have no idea on how to control their horses.

My own horses have always been impeccably behaved for the vets. Needing little attention from me really other than holding the rope - for forms sake. Equally I have fantastic equine vets who are used to dealing with large animals - but who are also not scared, own their own horses, cattle, etc, and have wonderful bed side manners.

I'm not a great horse person - so maybe I've been lucky? I don't know.

But as I said - expection to every rule etc. - why do so many horses have a problem with the vet? Usually they don't hurt them (the vet that is) and they are just another person. So does this mean that many of our fellow HHO's do in fact just have horses who are dangerous around people generally?????
 
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I have a twitch and I'm not afraid to use it ! !

In fact I don't use it very often at all it is well over a year since I did, but it has been a life saver many times, some mornings I rush down to the yard in a panic to check I've not misplaced it - as one day I will need it again I'm sure of it.
 
Yes, I do agree there are some very incompetent horse vets - but why would one use a vet like that? However, the number of ill behaved animals who have never been treated by an incompetent vet (or perhaps never been seen by a vet at all) would make me think the vets competence is only plays a small part in a small number of cases. Many owners get worked up about vaccs/injections etc and pass their nervousness onto their horses - this alone could make a usually well behaved horse very wary.
 
but why would one use a vet like that?
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Oh, I compltely agree. But another issue is that people seem unable to express their views to their veterinary practices and insist on a vet who knows how to deal with a horse. Or indeed move practices..........

Many owners get worked up about vaccs/injections etc and pass their nervousness onto their horses - this alone could make a usually well behaved horse very wary.
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Again - completely agree.
 
Nose twitching is fine for me.
Ear twitching is horrible and will not do it.

Nose twitching is fine if done properly, and saves a lot of agro when clipping heads.
 
as i said, i don't like to use a twitch, but i certainly wouldn't use one of those so-called "humane" twitches..they're akin to nut-crackers..awful things :mad:
 
amymay said:
But you do read on here quite often that a horse is afraid of the vet - and I just wonder really if this is the norm? Certainly my experience is that it isn't. And can only suppose that either the vets are incompetent or the owners are in dealing with their horses (problem horses aside).
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I don't think it is the norm either but it is not so black and white to blame the vet or the owner- the horse is a thinking animal with a mind of its own!

My vets are anything but incompetent- I only use vets who are proper horse vets, not the ones terrified of anything bigger than a shetland!

I have owned lots and lots of horses, lots of horses owned from foals and it is only this one that is a pain for the vet; my other 2 current horses don't even seem to notice the vet or the injections and I only put the headcollar on as a courtesy to the vet as they are so good.

So would you suppose it is incompetent vet or incompetent owner in my case?
 
I don't think it is the norm either but it is not so black and white to blame the vet or the owner- the horse is a thinking animal with a mind of its own!
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As I've said - there is always an exception to every rule.

And no, clearly you are not incompetent.
 
I tend to think the majority are exceptions actually.
The number of horses who beahve impeccably despite their owners faffing is amazing! :D
On a more serious note, of course there are many many horses who have an irrational fear of the vet, farrier - in some cases just any stranger. Quite like humans. And quite often, as in your case MT, the same owner has a number of very well beahved animals also. I find so many people get a horse who walks all over them and takes the piss, or is generally a wary animal and they tell me with conviction that the horse must have been abused/beaten in the previous home. I am convinced that half of them are not trained or controlled properly, the majority of the remainder are particularly sensitive or wary animals by nature and only a small percentage have had rough handling.
 
Used correctly it can be effective, although no relief can be given when the horse behaves.

I prefer a gum line myself, effective and only comes into action when required.
 
See, i think the gum line is much worse - mainly because Ive alwasy seen chains used and have on occasion seen a fair bit of bruising afterwards. (Ive only seen/used it on TB colts and stallions). Again I suppose it has its place but only in the hands of expereinced horseman.
 
I would just like to add, to anyone that doesn't understand why horses are frightened of vets, that they are very lucky!
My gelding will let you do anything to him, clip, teeth, farrier, box etc but for some unknown reason is petrified of the vet. I've owned him since he was three and he has not had a bad experience or any veterinary treatment he just doesn't like needles! This is not unlike many humans who atleast have the advantage of understanding that they are getting the injections for their own benefit.
So please don't assume there is incompetance on anyones part, just one of those things that makes horses the complicated, facinating creatures they are!
 
I have only had to use a twitch once after quite a bit of struggling for the vet to do a nerve block, must be honest it never worked very well on my newforest. However he seems to enjoy injections off the vet, he had his first vacination a few weeks after coming off the forest unhandled. I really was not sure that we would get it in him as at that time it could take a while to even catch him, but the vet gave him a apple and said hello to him for a few mins and then injected him, I have never had any problems since.
 
glenruby said:
On a more serious note, of course there are many many horses who have an irrational fear of the vet, farrier - in some cases just any stranger.
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The thing is, how do we know it's irrational? It may seem irrational to us, we know the vet is trying to help but does the horse know this? Many horses have unpleasant experiences of vets farriers and humans in general. If a horse isn't trained to accept an injection but just expected to accept it and is forced or twitched with no training if he objects, how do you think he views it? We can explain to children, so we should explain to horses by teaching them as younsters about all this stuff, it should be part of his basic education imo,we just expect a horse to comply. Often this is not done though or we think oh, he should know this at his age. How will he know if no one has taken the trouble to train/explain it? I'm convinced horses learn from watching other events around them as well, so observing a horse being forced to have an injection or wrestling with a farrier etc. will surely make him wary of vets and farriers. Vets and Farriers have a smell that horses can smell easily and as we all know smell is a very evocative sense and closely linked with memories good and bad. Why should horses be any different?

I'm just using vets and farriers here because they are often the ones that horses develop fears of that we all have enountered but I know of a pony who is afraid of anyone wearing a cap. Wonder why?

Sorry to ramble but re twitching, I don't like it and think it should be reserved for emergencies. It is up to us as owners to try and train our horses to be able to cope with the stuff we do to them. We choose to own them, they don't choose to be owned do they?
 
I wish people would accept a twitch is a tool in the same way a schooling whip or spurs are and used correctly causes minimum fuss and trauma. Too many people make too big a deal over it and quite frankly anyone who has several horses or has a wide field experience of horses would not be without one. It is no more unkind than pressure headcollars,chains over noses etc when used in the wrong hands.

It is less traumatic for a horse to be twitched and get the job done quickly and efficiently.

As for vets and farriers they have to put up with a LOT of ill mannered spoiled horses and I do not blame them when they lose patience or produce a twitch.
 
My mare can not be twitched she now knows whats behind my back and wont ever let me grab her nose and I only ever put it on for a few mins and never hurt her, but she will rear and try to kick you and isnt great with it on anyway!

The vets have a great new sedative which my friend tried the other day its like injectable sedation not sedalin, so u dont have to call the vet out for clipping/farriers! My mare just needs time and then she is fine
 
Irishlife said:
As for vets and farriers they have to put up with a LOT of ill mannered spoiled horses and I do not blame them when they lose patience or produce a twitch.
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I'm not blaming them. I can understand why they get frustrated. The point I was trying to make is that we as owners should train our horses then there might not be so many 'ill mannered' ones, that's all.
 
No-one has mentioned a good old "skin" twitch!! :)

Ear twitching is an evil practice IMO, i dont have a problem with nose twitching though would rather not if it can be helped, Obviuosly sometimes it cant and can save the horse a lot of stress.
 
I’ve used a twitch on my TB mare who is very highly strung but only when it is a true necessity. When she has her jabs I will warn the vet that she has a habit of rearing and that she needs to be jabbed outside or she will hit her head on the stable, which will make her worse. All vets have been more than happy with the warning and she is getting to be much better behaved every year and has surprised me the last couple of years by being a total star and just standing there! I will always warn a vet that she has a history of rearing though so that maybe they can expect it, as it is like a light switch just turning on. The rear just comes from nowhere if she decides. She was a rescue and had been neglected in past so has a few issues bless her. Her past from what I know is awful :(

I was using the twitch when she had a nasty cut on her hind very high up on the inside of her leg. It had got infected despite regular cleaning and antib’s. Vet said the scab needed pulling off every day twice a day and do hot compresses with salt water. You could only imagine how she reacted to that one! She hates it when I wash her heels (very prone to mud fever) so trying to sort this cut was a nightmare and still had to watch out for the flying legs even when twitched. If used correctly I don’t see too much of an issue with it. I also needed to use a twitch on my pony who had an eye infection and really hated the drops. Even though she is a tiddler she turned into a massive nightmare come eye drop time! Pretty sure she was thinking "No! Anything but the eye drops!" :) The rest of the time it just sits in a box and hoping it will stay that way.
 
amandap said:
I'm not blaming them. I can understand why they get frustrated. The point I was trying to make is that we as owners should train our horses then there might not be so many 'ill mannered' ones, that's all.
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I could not agree more, all my foals are thrown in at the deep end so when they are yearlings nothing surprises them and I have a lot of foals each year (too many:) - but I love it!) Sadly it seems a lot of basics have slipped by the wayside and a lot of people are afraid of giving a good old fashioned smack on the backside when needed. What is it these days that horses won't pick feet up, won't stand still, walk off and barge? Too much anguish and wringing of hands agonising whether to put an exercise sheet on a Welsh Cob! - rant over. Some horses are complete saints despite bad handling!!!
 
Irishlife said:
I could not agree more, all my foals are thrown in at the deep end so when they are yearlings nothing surprises them and I have a lot of foals each year (too many:) - but I love it!) Sadly it seems a lot of basics have slipped by the wayside and a lot of people are afraid of giving a good old fashioned smack on the backside when needed. What is it these days that horses won't pick feet up, won't stand still, walk off and barge? Too much anguish and wringing of hands agonising whether to put an exercise sheet on a Welsh Cob! - rant over. Some horses are complete saints despite bad handling!!!
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Brace yourself to be shot down in flames :D
 
i'm confused what are you all using to twitch? When our instructor clipped a nightmare one for us she just used her hand to hold his ear?
 
out of interest, how do you train a foal to be good for injections?

ime, 99.9% are fine but a few are adamant from the start that the needle ain't going in!

we have 'trained' my big boy to tolerate the vet by bribing lots of different people to come and fuss him, check his legs, teeth etc but i can't very well keep stabbing him with a needle until he is fine with it.
 
glenruby said:
See, i think the gum line is much worse - mainly because Ive alwasy seen chains used and have on occasion seen a fair bit of bruising afterwards. (Ive only seen/used it on TB colts and stallions). Again I suppose it has its place but only in the hands of expereinced horseman.
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You've got it there :) you need to know how to use one properly, it just sits in place if the horse is behaving. I suspect the trauma (bruising) to the nose is quite severe with a twitch but it just isn't as visible, the action is different though, the twitch releases endorphins, the gum line is just a reminder to behave.

I'll use a chain over the nose/under the chin before I would use a twitch anymore. Usually that is sufficient to remind most horses to mind their manners, but then, the majority of horses here are accustomed to them, they know that if they behave nothing happens, if they don't - well, their choice.
 
Irishlife said:
I could not agree more, all my foals are thrown in at the deep end so when they are yearlings nothing surprises them and I have a lot of foals each year (too many:) - but I love it!) Sadly it seems a lot of basics have slipped by the wayside and a lot of people are afraid of giving a good old fashioned smack on the backside when needed. What is it these days that horses won't pick feet up, won't stand still, walk off and barge? Too much anguish and wringing of hands agonising whether to put an exercise sheet on a Welsh Cob! - rant over. Some horses are complete saints despite bad handling!!!
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well said
 
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