Twitch...... Cruel or better than fighting?

bensonthewonderhorse said:
If anyone fancies coming to 'train' my horse to accept injections, then be my guest! P.s. I won't be accepting any liability for harm done!!! :D
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Lol! I'm sure there are horses with whom the fear and fight response is so ingrained retraining would be very long and difficult.

Re foals. My ideas and experience of only two foals is... generally getting them used to handling in small short sessions, being touched all over and in the neck area both sides. Ask vet to pet and touch foal or even give it a treat when he visits so the foal gets used to vets and associates him with nice or non scarey stuff. Play with syringes near foalie and his neck, bum and wherever he is likely to have a jab. Let foal smell syringe etc. Make a fist and make a jabbing motion at his neck building to a minor thump... the ideas are endless imo and if done in day to day handling are something youngsters just accept as part of their life.
The other thing to think about (this was a biggie for me) is keep yourself calm and expect the horse to take it all in his stride. If I'm nervous and expecting problems this seems to transfer to my horses.
 
the problem in my mind amandap is that you can do all of the above but you aren't desensitising to the injection itself so a horse scared or injections will be fine for all of the above but as soon as you jab they know about it!

you can take them by surprise a few times but after that they know and all the playing with syringes does no good if they are truly scared- imagine a person with a needle phobia; they may be fine after a while of you playing with the syringe and looking at their arm but will still hit the roof when the needle actually goes in!
 
Nothing wrong with twitching if done correctly - and with a decent rope. Having seen a horse being twitched with old bailer twine, put on too tightly which then snapped, leaving the horse with it's muzzle tightly bound and needing a vet to sedate him for it to come off, I cringe when I see frayed bailer twine used!

As for horses being scared of the vet - some horses only encounter a vet *in their space* when they are injured, so associate vets with pain. My horse is like this; come into his stable smelling like a vet and he goes apoplectic....even the dentist has to do him first, without hibiscrub in his bucket, otherwise Ted is off. However, lead him out of stable and inject him, no probs whatsoever. It is not his fault and it is not something I will ever be able to change....he associates the smell with pain, end of!
 
You don't even have to smell like a vet to spook our pony. Daughter is a vet student, decided once to listen to pony's heartbeat so went into stable with a stethoscope. Cue pony she has owned for over 10 years freaking out at the back of the stable, once she had got hold of her and told her not to be so stupid she was okay, but obviously stethoscope is an instrument of tortue.:p
 
millitiger said:
the problem in my mind amandap is that you can do all of the above but you aren't desensitising to the injection itself so a horse scared or injections will be fine for all of the above but as soon as you jab they know about it!
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That hasn't been my experience tbh. I had a horse who we had to twitch (or rather the vet did) when I first got her for injections. She never got totally happy with injections so I thought. She later went to my sister and jabbed herself in the chest with a branch so needed flushing and anti b jabs. A female vet came and injected her no problems. I injected her myself (i/m)for the next six days with no problems whatsoever. Looking back it seems she mistrusted male vets more.
So long as the needle is a new one (ie. sharp. Over here I have to insist on this, that's another story!) and the technique is good and quick generally there is little pain from the jab but some of the stuff injected really stings.
 
but that seems like that mare had more of a male issue than an injection issue- mine doesn't discriminate, he hates them all! :)

I am fine with injections and know they aren't painful on the whole and i think most people would agree with that but there are still some people who have a huge fear of being injected- it has nothing to do with how painful the injection is imo.
 
bensonthewonderhorse said:
If anyone fancies coming to 'train' my horse to accept injections, then be my guest! P.s. I won't be accepting any liability for harm done!!! :D
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My lovely Equine vet has shown me how to bring the vein up and told me that a gentle pinch to it will stimulate the same feeling as a needle.

She did say not to hold the vein up for longer than a minute but i do this with my girl from time to time and she is as good as gold to do.
 
Oh yes but do horses think of and hear about injections the way we do? Horses seem to learn by experience not hearsay or grusome tales.
I know I've had vets who are obviously expecting trouble so I wonder as well how much this transmits to the horse.
Having said all this I'm sure there may well be horses frightened of the needle or the injection with no reason we can fathoim and have to be injected the quickest, least traumatic way possibe. I've only babbled on because I don't believe these hores are as common as the number that are routinely twitched.
This is my opinion don't forget not a fact.:)

Mta... I was replying to millitiger btw.
 
I totally agree with Glenruby, we routine twitch at work, I've just come back from doing health tests for horses going to Singapore, this involves scoping, wind testing, a nasal swob (the long one that horses hate). And the vet brought his own special twitch, it worked a treat, no hassle no barging and no danger caused to any of us! Now it is a completely different matter at the livery yard where I keep my horse. Most people seem to think it is acceptable for horses not lift their feet properly, push you around etc. I work with 'mad' TBs at work and most would not dare do any of that to us, yet riding horses are a totally different kettle of fish. The twitch is not the problem it is more the 'operative' of the twitch. And yes we do routine ear twitch (we our own hands) foals for the farrier but are alll very experienced at doing it and we don't do it if not necessary. None of my foals are head shy, testament to the fact that it was done correctly.
 
I have seen people use a twitch and they seem to work the horses dont seem in pain but just fidget because it may be new to them in most cases a twitch is a good option
 
Horses have memories like elephants
It only takes one bad experience and they do not forget

Cuffey came from Ireland head shy and rather prickly, it took a lot of patience to overcome that

When his vaccs were started and dental checks the first vet was brilliant, absolutely no bother for a couple of years until a different vet came who managed to cut his tongue while rasping his teeth.

Many years later he still does a double take at strange cars on the yard
When vetted at competitions it had to be a female if there was a choice

Now my own vets have a lady she enters stable with apple in hand, job done without stress!!
This after years of Comanche twitch, only needed for vet, he loves farrier
 
Having sparked quite a discussion, I feel inspired to try my best to get my boy over his vet fear, jabs due in a couple of weeks so if the vets willing we will try him without the twitch first. Failing that I feel happy that having the twitch on for a minute will not do him any harm. Thanks for all your thoughts, and i'll let you know how I get on.
 
Just to clarify in case anyone is wondering - I have only ever twitched one horse for vaccination - at owners suggestion - and after getting thrown against his stable wall first, I was surprised at just how easy it was. I had suspected he was one who would still react when twitched. now if i have a known "nightmare" horse I may suggest it.
Laafet - those nasopharyngeal swabs are a nightmare - I usually bring y own twitch for those and have yet to have an owner complain - however if I tried to swab a fidget without one and made the horse bleed im sure they may well complain!! Its also cheaper and less after care than sedation for a quick procedure like that. Also with racing thoroughbreds you cant sedate so close to racing so a twitch on a young horse for scoping can be very very helpful (though many of course can be done without).
Enfys - yes, I agree a chain over the nose is a useful method of control but unfortunately most british people do not own one of these and a rope just doesnt have the same effect. PS when i said Ive seen bruised gums, I didnt actually bruise them myself - I was far too wary of that to use them strongly!Takes a bit of practice to avoid pinching the gums but imo the handler needs to be much more competent than for twitching even.
A skin twitch can also be useful but rarely is effective enough to do anything a horse actually resents. This I do routinely use when vaccinating to take the horses' mind off the pinch.
 
I twitch B to get certain parts of him clipped......it saves my head being kicked in, him being nicked by the clipper blades, and I can get the job done quickly.

I only nose or gypsy (neck) twitch. I cannot afford sedation every time I need to trim legs or clip bellies.


Horse is not headshy and I have had no adverse reactions to twitching.
 
bensonthewonderhorse said:
Having sparked quite a discussion, I feel inspired to try my best to get my boy over his vet fear, jabs due in a couple of weeks so if the vets willing we will try him without the twitch first. Failing that I feel happy that having the twitch on for a minute will not do him any harm. Thanks for all your thoughts, and i'll let you know how I get on.
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Two weeks isn't that long if she is really, really scared, best of luck.

I never do stuff like this in a stable unless the horse can't be brought out for any reason. I've found that horses seem to feel less trapped in an encloded yard where they can see etc. Mine are in the yard for vet, farrier and dentist etc. Just the way I've found works best for us.
 
I think it is much better to use a twitch for 10 minutes at a time than struggling with a horse or getting hurt. The twitch causes the horse to release endorphines and so they relax. When you apply the twitch you should always stand to the side because they can sometimes strike out. I know someone who lost their front teeth when the horse struck out.Depending on the horse, some do seem to respond well to holding an ear, again I think they release endorphines, but this is no good if they are head shy.
 
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