two horses die at scottish grand national

Over2You said:
Thank you for not shooting me down. However, my opinion of racing will NEVER change. I cannot see anything from the side of people who find it acceptable to put animals at such high risk in the name of sport and entertainment. If racing were banned, I would have no sympathy for those who would be jobless. They earned their money out of the pain and suffering of animals. Instead, they could turn their facilities into sanctuaries/retirement homes for the horses and charge the public to go and see them. A lower income perhaps, but it would still be a much kinder way of getting money out of the horses. To put them under so much stress and making them jump those horrid fences is as cruel as it is barbaric. It is something that should be consigned to the history books.
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Sorry, Over2You, but that idea is completely ridiculous.

The horses would be SHOT and you know it. Thouands of them, mares, foals, in training racers, stallions. A few may find homes, but many of those would end up entering a spiral of neglect and die a lonely, starving death in some forgotten about fields.

The public would not pay to go and see a bunch of old racehorses. Nor would it make enough to keep them. So they'd be shot. That'd be acceptable, would it.

What about farmers? Riding schools? Dressage riders? Show producers? Showjumpers? They make their money out of animals, and I have seen much worse suffering in these places. So you want all these banned too then?
 
Teagreen is right.
There is no way those horses would be able to be kept. People are giving their horses away already due to not being able to afford them, what makes you think all the race horses are going to live wonderful lives, grazing in fields? there would be a HUGE cull, some may be re homed but most shot.
As it says in the H&H mag "what the race gives the horse population outweighs what it takes".
And i would also much rather be a race horse than a dartmoor pony.
 
Mrs B said:
There are far worse fates in life (for every being on the planet) than dying as a racehorse may.

IMO you can't (and shouldn't) bubblewrap every life-form on Earth. Or else, what's the point? It's called LIFE for a reason! You may as well dictate that everything comes into the world, lives an average lifespan in a hermetically sealed environment which is dictated by Man as to be the most suitable (and I do include Man himself here!) and then shuffles off at it's allotted biologically pre-destined moment.

Or is that what you wish for?
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I can accept horse deaths from natural causes and accidents. However, I will never accept the death of a horse if the cause was the result of racing. Racing is purely for human greed and glory. I am also for taking risks - just as long as I am only endangering myself. Not asking a horse to run his/herself to the point of collapsing or suffering a horrific fall.
 
Over2You said:
Thank you for not shooting me down. However, my opinion of racing will NEVER change. I cannot see anything from the side of people who find it acceptable to put animals at such high risk in the name of sport and entertainment. If racing were banned, I would have no sympathy for those who would be jobless. They earned their money out of the pain and suffering of animals. Instead, they could turn their facilities into sanctuaries/retirement homes for the horses and charge the public to go and see them. A lower income perhaps, but it would still be a much kinder way of getting money out of the horses. To put them under so much stress and making them jump those horrid fences is as cruel as it is barbaric. It is something that should be consigned to the history books.
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It would be interesting for you to ring the likes of Greatwood or Heroes (or any of the other existing racehorse rehabilitation centres) to ask them how much money they actually earn from charging people to go and see the horses...

The reality, and I'm sure, deep down, you realise this, is that if racing WERE to be abolished, a few famous horses MIGHT just end up in lovely retirement sanctuaries. The vast majority, however, would be shipped off to the likes of Potters and Turners in their thousands.

I really have to take issue with your statement about horses being 'made to jump those horrid fences.' If a horse doesn't want to jump, by and large, it will stop. There are occasional refusals in racing, and I actually feel heartened whenever I see this happen, as it seems to prove a point - if a horse doesnt want to jump, it won't. The same for horses refusing to start (not just racing, either - remember the famous eventing example of a year or so ago?) Look at King John's Castle in the National last year. Can't, shan't, won't - and he didn't.

Again, you'll probably come back and just tell me that horses are so conditioned they know no better - but what of the loose horses who continue to jump the fences with the rest of the field? Nobody is forcing them. Not in the true sense of the word 'force'.
 
Its impossible to have a proper debate with someone who feels all the racehorses could retire to a farm funded by the visiting general public.

So in your perfect world after banning racing and retiring them where would you next turn your attention eventing,polo, sj, dressage or perhaps plough horses.
 
teagreen said:
Sorry, Over2You, but that idea is completely ridiculous.

The horses would be SHOT and you know it. Thouands of them, mares, foals, in training racers, stallions. A few may find homes, but many of those would end up entering a spiral of neglect and die a lonely, starving death in some forgotten about fields.

The public would not pay to go and see a bunch of old racehorses. Nor would it make enough to keep them. So they'd be shot. That'd be acceptable, would it.

What about farmers? Riding schools? Dressage riders? Show producers? Showjumpers? They make their money out of animals, and I have seen much worse suffering in these places. So you want all these banned too then?
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So, the people you racing supporters say love their animals, and who apparently think the world of them, would have no qualms about having them shot. Are you now admitting that the horses are in fact seen as disposable commodities and are not actually loved that much after all? Please do not try to compare racing to other horse sports. None of them are as punishing, nor are any of them responsible for as many horrific deaths. If any of those sports killed as many animals, then yes, I would be all for having them banned too.
 
Over2You said:
I can accept horse deaths from natural causes and accidents. However, I will never accept the death of a horse if the cause was the result of racing. Racing is purely for human greed and glory. I am also for taking risks - just as long as I am only endangering myself. Not asking a horse to run his/herself to the point of collapsing or suffering a horrific fall.
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I was right then - the 'bubble-wrap' effect.
 
Over2You said:
....... Instead, they could turn their facilities into sanctuaries/retirement homes for the horses and charge the public to go and see them. A lower income perhaps, but it would still be a much kinder way of getting money out of the horses.......
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O2Y, whilst I genuinely have no intention of "shooting you down", you cannot be further from the truth. Perhaps a very small percentage of horses retire and enjoy that retirement. The bulk of those poor creatures which end up incarcerated in rescue centres, live lives of misery. Charging the public to gawp at them, should be an embarrassment.

I accept, without question, that your thoughts are founded upon a caring approach. The problem is that it if we are to put the well being, of the animal, before our own, and we have to accept that, to face our responsibilities, then we don't just foist them off onto a free disposal system, and in the main, that's what rescue centres are. I would that I was wrong, sadly I don't think that I am.

Alec.
 
One of the horses who died was from our yard. I can assure you all that we are greatly saddened by it. He was a lovely horse who died of a heart attack, which could of happened during a piece of work. Thank god the jockey is ok, we have had enough bad injuries happen just lately, Pete Toole being one who is still in a very bad way. I haven't read any other replys but it upsets me that the general opinion is that none of us in racing care, of course we do, but believe me there are worse things for the horses to be doing. As i have said in my other posts ' treated like kings' springs to mind
.
 
Over2You said:
I am also for taking risks - just as long as I am only endangering myself. Not asking a horse to run his/herself to the point of collapsing or suffering a horrific fall.
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Are you against horse riding full stop?

Everytime you set foot in the stirrup, you are risking yourself AND your horse, simply by the very nature of being the one 'in control.' Cases in point:

Last year, I took my mare out for a gentle hack around the lanes. We were hit by a concrete lorry who had been going far too fast. I fell off; my horse was injured. Did I endanger her? Yes - had I chosen not to ride on the road that day, she would never have been hurt.

Seven years ago, my horse and I suffered a horrific rotational fall during a schooling session; she came down on top of me, and although she suffered no long lasting injuries, it must have been pretty horrible for her. Not at all pleasant for her, but a risk of the sport. Did I endanger her? Yes - because I asked her to jump in the first place. But that is what she was bred for, and that is one of the reasons I ride.

Finally, a friend of mine took her beloved, peak-of-fitness 13 year old gelding out for a nice long hack one day, and he dropped dead beneath her as they galloped up a hill. Did she endanger him? Yes, because if he'd stayed in the stable, he would arguably have lived to see another day - although who knows for how long. Did she ask him to run himself to the point of collapse? Well no, because she didnt INTEND for him to drop dead, and he was fit, healthy and happy in himself. But ultimately, asking him to gallop led to his death, so....

Do you see what I'm saying? No person who agrees with horse riding in general could claim to be against racing purely because of the risk to the horse. We ALL risk our horses.
 
Over2You said:
So, the people you racing supporters say love their animals, and who apparently think the world of them, would have no qualms about having them shot. Are you now admitting that the horses are in fact seen as disposable commodities and are not actually loved that much after all? Please do not try to compare racing to other horse sports. None of them are as punishing, nor are any of them responsible for as many horrific deaths. If any of those sports killed as many animals, then yes, I would be all for having them banned too.
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Oh come on. Racing is a business. They are not pets. I have show horses, and if they couldn't be shown anymore and were simply eating up my money with no purpose, I couldn't keep them. I think you will find the same in all areas of equine business. Of course they are loved, but if they are not making money, do you really think people in this hard pushed climate could afford to keep them? My father is a farmer - he cares very much for his cows, but if they weren't making him money, he couldn't afford to keep them. It will be the same thing for all the show producers I know, the showjumpers, the dressage riders, the eventers, etc etc etc.

As Down said in the Racing Post - there is no tyrany as great as ignorance. Racings deaths are very public. Show horses and show jumpers and happy hackers deaths are not documented, so you can't see how many die of awful things. Why don't you go and protest about the dartmoor hill ponies we all saw being shot on Countryfile tonight? That's something you could make a difference about. Only people with little concern for animal welfare want racing banned, any professional will tell you that.
 
Over2You said:
. If racing were banned, I would have no sympathy for those who would be jobless. They earned their money out of the pain and suffering of animals.

To put them under so much stress and making them jump those horrid fences is as cruel as it is barbaric. It is something that should be consigned to the history books.
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So everyone that works in the racing industry are cruel, heartless barstewards? We earn our money by working our horses to the best of their ability so that when they do go out onto the track they perform at their best and stand the best chance of coming home, hopefully in front. We don't train them with pain and suffering. They say that a horses mood reflects it's riders - well considering that the people I work with a bunch of jolly muppets I would say that our horses are pretty darned happy and energetic too. They look forward to their work each day. They tow us up and down those gallops eyeing up their work partner and trying to out do them. They are competative, we are competative. We want our horses to do well but first and foremost we want them to come back in one piece so we give the best education you could possibly ask for.

The pain and suffering in racing is on the part of the stable staff. I can assure you that there is nothing more heart wrenching and gutting than running down the track to your horse knowing that you are going to be bringing home an empty bridle. We don't treat our horses as just another machine, they are well loved and well looked after - as if they were our own. Nore often than not we have to remind ourselves that we don't actually own them and the owners can send them to whichever racemeeting they wish to run them at.

As for those horrid fences - Hurdles flatten to the floor without much pressure. Chase fences are actually only 1.5ft high of solid material. The top few feet is just stacked birch that you can go through to your hearts content.

At least racing is open about their deaths and injuries. I'm sure if you delved deep enough you find many fatalities in eventing and show jumping. You would find more stress in a dressage yard and far more cases of laminitus in showing yards.

Over 2 You you are actually offensive in your comments. I see you come from Central Scotland. Please take the time to visit one of the trainers from that neck of the woods, Nick Alexander, Susan Bradburne, Lucinda Russell, Lucy Normile or from Glasgow Jim Goldie. You may also wish to visit Perth Racecourse and see first hand how happy and well looked after the horses there are.
 
_MizElz_ said:
It would be interesting for you to ring the likes of Greatwood or Heroes (or any of the other existing racehorse rehabilitation centres) to ask them how much money they actually earn from charging people to go and see the horses...

The reality, and I'm sure, deep down, you realise this, is that if racing WERE to be abolished, a few famous horses MIGHT just end up in lovely retirement sanctuaries. The vast majority, however, would be shipped off to the likes of Potters and Turners in their thousands.

I really have to take issue with your statement about horses being 'made to jump those horrid fences.' If a horse doesn't want to jump, by and large, it will stop. There are occasional refusals in racing, and I actually feel heartened whenever I see this happen, as it seems to prove a point - if a horse doesnt want to jump, it won't. The same for horses refusing to start (not just racing, either - remember the famous eventing example of a year or so ago?) Look at King John's Castle in the National last year. Can't, shan't, won't - and he didn't.

Again, you'll probably come back and just tell me that horses are so conditioned they know no better - but what of the loose horses who continue to jump the fences with the rest of the field? Nobody is forcing them. Not in the true sense of the word 'force'.
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I certainly did not feel "heartened" when I saw a horse slamming on the brakes, only to crash into a solid fence and snap his leg (if I can find that video again I will point you in its direction). Nor do I feel "heartened" when I know that the horse I just saw refusing will only be entered into another race.
 
Over2you, i agree wholeheartedly with you, i would love to see all animals free from exploitation. Unfortunately it aint ever gonna happen.

Ive said in other posts, that we are too deep in this ***** of using others, money, ego. We cant go back now. Its not possible anymore to undomesticate animals, and have them roam free. I would love to live in a world where we dont feel the need to use others, people and animals, but in reality, its not possible.

Maybe if man never thought about domesticating animals at the dawn of time, we would never be in this situation of animal abuse and neglect. Not just in racing, but for all animals. But like i said, we really are in too deep to change things around now. We just have to make the most of it now. Helping animals, charities, shelters, and all others who need our help.
 
Jennyharvey said:
Over2you, i agree wholeheartedly with you, i would love to see all animals free from exploitation. Unfortunately it aint ever gonna happen.

Ive said in other posts, that we are too deep in this ***** of using others, money, ego. We cant go back now. Its not possible anymore to undomesticate animals, and have them roam free. I would love to live in a world where we dont feel the need to use others, people and animals, but in reality, its not possible.

Maybe if man never thought about domesticating animals at the dawn of time, we would never be in this situation of animal abuse and neglect. Not just in racing, but for all animals. But like i said, we really are in too deep to change things around now. We just have to make the most of it now. Helping animals, charities, shelters, and all others who need our help.
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You haven't answered my question, JennyHarvey - but I take it as read that you support Animal Aid.

Are you 'aint ever gonna' answer honestly? And where exactly is this 'roam free' you talk of?

If you (and Over2You) wised up a bit, saw the world as it IS and tried to understand the way it works, you might be in a much better position to actually DO something for equines who are really in need (such as live exports or those abandoned in fields to their 'freedom') rather than belonging to Planet Fluffy and berating the areas of the horse world which are very well regulated already, but are easy targets for you because of their prominence in the media.
 
I wouldn't normally like to get involved in a debate but the 'racing' subject really gets me, It's seems people get wind of the press and go into uproar, horses die in low profile racing all the time, you just don't hear of it.

These horses are bred for a purpose, they are not pets, and as I believe somebody else has said, I bet a lot of people take their horses XC or SJ, is there no risk in that then? Hacking, no risk in that? I bet if somebody did figures, there would be an equal amount of horses that died in all the work you think is acceptable for them, and the racing environment.

I'm not normally argumentative, but this really get's at me! Of course I'm upset when I see a horse go down and know it didn't get up again, but jesus, they died doing what they loved. They where bred for that, if they weren't going to go into that sport, they wouldn't of been born, A LOT of people would be out of work. All airy fairy people think everybody that works with racehorses are evil, racehorses are probably looked after more than your bog standard horse, they are doing what they love to do every day, not just the day they go to race. Do all your horses not like a good blast? I bet thats what they enjoy more than schooling and a nice steady hack..
 
Mrs B said:
You haven't answered my question, JennyHarvey - but I take it as read that you support Animal Aid.

Are you 'aint ever gonna' answer honestly? And where exactly is this 'roam free' you talk of?

If you (and Over2You) wised up a bit, saw the world as it IS and tried to understand the way it works, you might be in a much better position to actually DO something for equines who are really in need (such as live exports or those abandoned in fields to their 'freedom') rather than belonging to Planet Fluffy and berating the areas of the horse world which are very well regulated already, but are easy targets for you because of their prominence in the media.
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Yes i do support animal aid, yes i do ride as well, yes im a hypocrite, which im fully aware off, i do have reasons in which i do still ride, so feel free to have a go at me if you wish. Obviously you didnt read my post fully, otherwise you would understand that i dont disagree with what others are saying. Will animals ever be free? NO. Will we ever stop exploiting animals? NO. I know that as well as any one else. Do i agree that we need to exploit animals? NO. But like i said, it really doesnt matter if i think that. Its never gonna change that. So i will happily have my views on it, others will have there views on it.
 
Ignition a very good blog. Everyone who supports racing has said the same thing over and over again but it falls on a few deaf ears. There is none so blind as those that wont see and they have a different agenda to the rest of us.

Without racing horse welfare would be a lot poorer as racing has poured thousands of pounds into things like grass sickness & laminitis to name but a few.

Animal Aid would rather pour their money into highlighting the downside of racing as they see it and not in helping Dartmoor hill ponies who is the biggest hyprocrite?.
 
I have been signed up to this forum for quite a while but just lurk and dont post but as i work in racing(obvious by the name i guess hehe :)!) i have been paying
alot of attention to all the racing posts at the moment and the same points keep coming out from both sides the one about
them being forced to do this more so than others.
racehorses love what they do and when they dont,boy let me tell you they let you know about it and i fully understand
from another perspective when people say they the only reason they come across as loving what they do is because its
all they know which is also true to a point but what alot of the anti racing peole are not seem to be grasping are that
these animals are bred for this and this only.They are not bred a pets/field toys/happy hackers yet they are treated with the up-most
care,love,time and attention equal to or even more to all the family horse/pony out there but they are still a working animal
at the end of the day not a pet.

sorry if this i a repeat of what others have previously said, im getting a bit muddled with all the national posts lately !
 
this is the scariest forum on the net i reckon. I dont like racing and i will never watch the gn again . I am soft and sentimental and my horse will be with me for life... however i did many moons ago work with tbs at stud and we just have to realise that most competetive equestrian folk view their horses differently to us sentamental folk. My horse had a long working life and his owner passed him on when he could no longer do his job. i picked up the pieces and now he is enjoying his life as a happy hacker with me. the two worlds are completely different but can compliment each other. sometimes without being bitchy.
 
Jennyharvey said:
Yes i do support animal aid, yes i do ride as well, yes im a hypocrite, which im fully aware off, i do have reasons in which i do still ride, so feel free to have a go at me if you wish. Obviously you didnt read my post fully, otherwise you would understand that i dont disagree with what others are saying. Will animals ever be free? NO. Will we ever stop exploiting animals? NO. I know that as well as any one else. Do i agree that we need to exploit animals? NO. But like i said, it really doesnt matter if i think that. Its never gonna change that. So i will happily have my views on it, others will have there views on it.
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NO horse rider should support Animal Aid. While it often comes across as a 'reasonable' animal welfare group it IS an extreme animal 'rights' group. It is campaigning against animal experiments, factory farming, wildlife culls, and the use of animals for sport and leisure That includes ANY form of horse riding!

That doesn't mean horse riders shouldn't be concerned about welfare aspects of racing or any other equestrian sport - but I'd be careful who you get into bed with! :rolleyes:
 
EKW said:
So everyone that works in the racing industry are cruel, heartless barstewards? We earn our money by working our horses to the best of their ability so that when they do go out onto the track they perform at their best and stand the best chance of coming home, hopefully in front. We don't train them with pain and suffering. They say that a horses mood reflects it's riders - well considering that the people I work with a bunch of jolly muppets I would say that our horses are pretty darned happy and energetic too. They look forward to their work each day. They tow us up and down those gallops eyeing up their work partner and trying to out do them. They are competative, we are competative. We want our horses to do well but first and foremost we want them to come back in one piece so we give the best education you could possibly ask for.

The pain and suffering in racing is on the part of the stable staff. I can assure you that there is nothing more heart wrenching and gutting than running down the track to your horse knowing that you are going to be bringing home an empty bridle. We don't treat our horses as just another machine, they are well loved and well looked after - as if they were our own. Nore often than not we have to remind ourselves that we don't actually own them and the owners can send them to whichever racemeeting they wish to run them at.

As for those horrid fences - Hurdles flatten to the floor without much pressure. Chase fences are actually only 1.5ft high of solid material. The top few feet is just stacked birch that you can go through to your hearts content.

At least racing is open about their deaths and injuries. I'm sure if you delved deep enough you find many fatalities in eventing and show jumping. You would find more stress in a dressage yard and far more cases of laminitus in showing yards.

Over 2 You you are actually offensive in your comments. I see you come from Central Scotland. Please take the time to visit one of the trainers from that neck of the woods, Nick Alexander, Susan Bradburne, Lucinda Russell, Lucy Normile or from Glasgow Jim Goldie. You may also wish to visit Perth Racecourse and see first hand how happy and well looked after the horses there are.
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If hurdles were as safe, then why do so many horses die from falls during hurdle racing? Why is that 69 horses died between the 13th of March 2007 and the 12th of March 2008? Why all those fatalities (which happened to be four more than chasing)? As for the 1.5ft of solid material. Let me picture horses jumping over something rigid and solid of about the same starting height as a puissance wall. Now let me picture them doing so from a fast paced gallop. Now let me picture the inevitable carnage. Oh, wait, I have already seen that far too many times to count!!

You say again about how much the people in racing love the horses (paragraph 2), but why involve yourself in a sport knowing fine well that retuning with an empty bridle is a strong possibility. On average, 1 out of every 35 NH horses starting the season will not see the end of it.

Please do not be offended if I do not take you up on visiting those trainers you named. Or Perth racecourse. I do not wish to see horses who could very easily end his or her life in the name of sport.

Please also tell me exactly what it is you love about racing. I was discussing this with a couple of friends and my Mother the other day, but we were all stumped to come up with a reason.
 
As non runner stated these animals are bred for racing, just like farm animals bred for meat/mlik and without these uses for them they wouldnt be alive, they are treated well in everyday life and if humans didn,t breed them to use then how many would be around,
 
Over2You said:
If hurdles were as safe, then why do so many horses die from falls during hurdle racing? Why is that 69 horses died between the 13th of March 2007 and the 12th of March 2008? Why all those fatalities (which happened to be four more than chasing)? As for the 1.5ft of solid material. Let me picture horses jumping over something rigid and solid of about the same starting height as a puissance wall. Now let me picture them doing so from a fast paced gallop. Now let me picture the inevitable carnage. Oh, wait, I have already seen that far too many times to count!!

Why do so many eventer fall? A simple mistep or wrong stride is all it take to come down. You can't compare jump racing to jumping a puissance wall. Racehorse are taught - yes funnily enough we do teach them things - to jumpat speed which means that they take off further out and land further away than in show jumping. To get over some of those show jumps you need precision as you need to leave the poles up. You don't get 4 faults everytime you go through the birch or knock a hurdle down, you just get a very annoyed fenceman.

You say again about how much the people in racing love the horses (paragraph 2), but why involve yourself in a sport knowing fine well that retuning with an empty bridle is a strong possibility. On average, 1 out of every 35 NH horses starting the season will not see the end of it.

Your horse could die anywhere, out hacking, eventing, even just playing in the field. Yes we heighten the risk for them to die but we accept that. I would love for every single horse to come home safe and sound but realistically that will never happen. We are not heartless for accepting this fact just realistic. We never get used to it and by heck you would never want to get used to it.

Also where are you getting these stats from? 1 in 35? No chance!

Please do not be offended if I do not take you up on visiting those trainers you named. Or Perth racecourse. I do not wish to see horses who could very easily end his or her life in the name of sport.

Please also tell me exactly what it is you love about racing. I was discussing this with a couple of friends and my Mother the other day, but we were all stumped to come up with a reason.

Do you never get a buzz from your horse working well? Does it then not make you proud when they go out and do well at your chosen discipline? We work our horses to the best of their ability at home and who would have goot fun galloping a game horse with a bunch of friends?
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Sometimes you need to get a reailty check.
 
pastie2 said:
No! it wont end, the last place I look for cruelty is on the racecourse, enough has been said about that already. I went to an auction yesterday, there was not one humane person there, be it vender or buyer, mares and foals, youngsters, the gelded and the entire were just moved around on the continuious(sp) spiral of a commodity. They were sold from dealer to dealer, low value animals nearly worthless. What chance will they have, none IMO. A lovely sec A mare, had laminitis and 13 yrs old, done all the PC jobs and sold for £150. I dont think that she will have an easy life from now on, she is a commodity. You Jennyharvey are a very silly and uninformed woman and I am getting very fed up with your anti-racing and animal aid posts. Please why dont you direct your anger about animal welfare away from racing, there is more a huge world out there of animal neglect.
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She didn't have laminitis at the auction? She has had it previously you mean? Poor girl, done her bit for kids no doubt.
 
Over2You - please answer my question regarding whether or not you are a horse rider yourself, and whether you do, indeed, agree with horseriding in general.

Because if you are, or if you do, then all of your pontificating claims about risk and endangerment reek of hypocrisy.

And I'm afraid your reply to EKW shows you for what you are - completely closed minded and, sadly, quite ignorant. The only reason you refuse to visit a trainer's yard or a racecourse is because you are frightened it will actually prove you wrong; you're scared you may actually see some compassionate, caring horsemanship from the people you have enjoyed ignorantly despising.
 
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