Two puppies - Same litter

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ItsAllPoppyCock

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We have two puppies from the same litter - Both boys.

One was for me and my family and one for my parents however their puppy has become to much for my retired father to deal with alone (my mother works away Mon-Fri). So I have stepped in and now have both puppies living with me.

Puppy 2, had become seriously attached to my father so I think that this is definitely the right thing to have happened but now we have one very stressed puppy and the boys fight - A lot!

We leave them to it as much as we can but puppy 2 has caused some wounds to our puppy's jowls (sp) and as they are fighting a lot these don't get to heal as that's always where puppy 2 will go for.

I understand that they are trying to establish who is Alpha dog but I just wondered if anybody had any advice for me please? They are 9 weeks old.

We are seperating them at night and when we are not home but what more can we do to get this sorted?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
 
If they are nine weeks old it will be more rough and tumble than actually fighting.
What age did you bring them home? If it was too early, their Mum maybe did not get a chance to box their ears for them, if that makes any sense.

TBH I would either step in and reprimand, either by using voice, distraction or isolation of the aggressor, or try and rehome one if possible. It should not be hard to stop baby puppies from getting at each other.

If it is too much to cope with at nine weeks it is going to be a hell of a lot harder once they are grown.

I had a pair of male/female siblings (we had the male, our other bitch died so we bought the female two months later) who initially fought a lot but grew out of it but we ended up moving the female on as we did not really gel and she never truly settled. Wouldn't do it again in a hurry, for a variety of reasons.
 
Pups were 6.5 weeks when we bought them home, so yes, too early.

It definately starts as rough and tumble but pup 2 goes too far and gets nasty. I wasn't sure whether to step in or leave them be but I will try distracting them with something when they start.

Last option will be to re-home pup 2 but it's not something we won't do if all else fails. It was our first night with the two last night so I'm sure it will get easier. I guess I'm just looking for tips really and if there is anything I definitely should, or shouldn't be doing.

Thank you.
 
My advice would be to place one of the pups in another home. Neither pup will develop to its full, emotional potential if you keep them under the same roof. At nine weeks you are already seeing a pattern of dominance and are having to separate them for their safety. Even if they were the best of mates, separate sleeping quarters are to be recommended to help establish their independence and individuality. At their tender age it will be easier to place one of the pups, than when they are older and, possibly, negatively affected by their present situation.

Good luck. I know that the decision to relinquish one of the babies will be a win-win outcome for all involved.
 
The bolder of the two puppies needs to learn who's Top Dog. It's you, and if you allow him to please himself just what he does, you'll be the next one who he tries it on with.

It sounds as if over the last three and a half weeks the puppy has been given free rein with your father. He's trying to establish himself as the Alpha dog? Under no circumstances allow that. YOU are the Alpha dog, and the sooner that he learns that, the easier life will be for him.

As C_C, "Box his ears"!! or re-home. As a matter of interest, what breed are they?

Alec.
 
this is only going to get a LOT harder Im afraid and are you ready to do all your training on a 1:1 with each pup separately? Even walking 1 at a time? Not trying to put a downer on things for you, it sounds like you did what you had to but if it was me Id be asking the breeder to take back one of them.
 
Although stepping in to take on your parent's puppy seems like the perfect solution, it can in fact turn out to be the worst option for you and your puppy and puppy number two. As a breeder I would never knowingly sell two puppies into one home and have never retained two from a litter I've bred.

Even for the most experienced dog owners two puppies of the same age are difficult to manage. They need to be treated as two individuals - played with and exercised separately in their formative months so that they actually bond with their human family and pack leader and not become reliant on each other and therefore independent of you.

I know that it is easy to say and not necessarily easy to do, but you really should look to rehome puppy two. In the first instance you should go back to the breeder who should take him back or at the very least help you find a new home. They may well have had a waiting list for their litter and therefore the perfect home could be ready and waiting. Failing that try the breed rescue as again they often have suitable homes available. (I'm assuming they are pedigrees - apologies if not as this probably won't be an option).

I'm sorry if this isn't the response you wanted, but remember that you took on one puppy and have the facilities and ability to look after that one and do so really well.

Best of luck and please let us know how things get resolved.
 
Thank you all for your comments - There are some great suggestions and I am willing to do anything to try to make this work but I am also a realist and if I don't see any improvement after I exurt (sp) myself as Alpha I will look in to rehoming pup 2.

The breeder is not an option as we took an 8 hour round trip to collect the puppies, and they are not 'breeders' as such so I expect they wouldn't have the knowledge to be able to help and they are not pedigree so no breed rescue to help re-home but I am sure I would be able to place puppy 2 myself with friends.

They are Springer x Labrador puppies so very intelligent dogs, which probably doesn't help either.

I've just gone and bought myself some water squirters to use as a distraction and I will start stepping in and putting them in their place.

I'll let you know how it goes and again, thank you for all your comments.
 
I have two pups from the same litter; I knew the breeder really well, and we had many convo's about this. Because we are working them in harness, it made sense to have two the same size and ability/drive. They are malamutes, a bred with very high adrenaline levels, so not the easiest dog by any stretch of the imagination :D We had waited 3-4 years for a pup from this litter, and it was the bitch's last one, so here we are with a dog and a bitch, now 10 months old (got them at 8 weeks).

It's been hard, very hard at times. We've had countless samoyeds over the years, never 2 young pups together, but we're fairly used to the 'sleddog temperament'.

However these two can be right little buggers! They are both so different in character; they both have the drive and working will we wanted, but around the house, the bitch is the boss and the dog just wants to bounce.

She can be very moody, especially after tea, and will start a nasty fight if her brother goes too close. He's learnt this, fortunately with little bloodshed, and now keeps his distance when she has 'the look'.

They play fight a lot, and we have to listen for the rising noises. If that happens, we use distraction, a bouncing tennis ball (that they aren't allowed to touch), a bottle with stones in it to rattle, an umberella opening, or dropping a metal bin lid, or just a squeaky voice. It has worked a treat so far.



If they do get to the fighting stage, we grab a tail and pull apart (not saying this is the best method, but it works for us) and using a very stern voice, lecture them on their bad behaviour for a second or two 'Just WHAT do you think you're doing' usually works :D
We separate them for a few minutes, and make them lie down (not held down, or forced!), and then release them, but keep watching. Any sign of repeated snarling, and we use the stern voice again which nips it in the bud.

Touch wood, we've had very little bloodshed so far. We are very fortunate in that one of our best friends is a behaviorist, specialising in sleddogs!
 
Hello Itsallpoppycock.

A friend of mine recently had a litter of springerdors, all black - I will ask if she had anyone on her list who didn't get one of hers. Where are you? I'm in Cheshire.
 
Please do not use adversives on 9 week old puppies ( water sprays/rattle bottles). you want them to trust you and want to work for and bond with you, not be scared of what you might do next that is scary. I would seperate them the moment things get heated and be consistant with this.

Having litter mates is never a great idea, particularly as they have come away from Mum too early. Personally I would rehome one of the pups, it does sound like they each need serious one to one input which is so hard when you have two pups the same age.

If you are determined to keep them both, I would contact a good local trainer asap, they are too young for puppy classes, but a good trainer will be able to advise on how to deal with them now.
 
We didn't intend on having littermates under the same roof and our puppy is actually very settled and prefers our company to that of pup 2.

As I've said re-homing pup 2 will be my last resort, I want to try first and if necessary get help before giving up and re-homing.
 
I can't advise on the 2 puppy problem, all I can say is when Harley was that age he was a little brat and would challenge me over things and I literally used to put him in time out like a child. I removed him from the situation, made him lay down and stay there until I said so. At that age he obv didnt have a great down stay/wait but it also helped with that! It really worked with him and he got over it pretty fast.
 
Teaselmeg said:
Please do not use adversives on 9 week old puppies ( water sprays/rattle bottles). you want them to trust you and want to work for and bond with you, not be scared of what you might do next that is scary. I would seperate them the moment things get heated and be consistant with this.

Having litter mates is never a great idea, particularly as they have come away from Mum too early. Personally I would rehome one of the pups, it does sound like they each need serious one to one input which is so hard when you have two pups the same age.

If you are determined to keep them both, I would contact a good local trainer asap, they are too young for puppy classes, but a good trainer will be able to advise on how to deal with them now.
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I agree with all the points here. While dominance, in its original meaning, exists amongst dogs, the kind of dominance/alpha relationship between dog and human that Cesar Milan etc. would have us believe in just does not exist.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

Rather than some complex theory about which one would rather take over the world, I would imagine it is a case of two young, boisterous puppies that have undeveloped social skills due to leaving mum too early, who do not know when to stop or when to communicate their desire to stop to each other and that is why things are suddenly tipping over from playfights to disagreements. It's a bit like toddlers, they may very happily share toys and bang each other with their Duplo blocks but inevitably one will end up bonking the other on the head or taking a toy that the other one wants and there will be tempers and tears.
While they are so young and still learning the appropriate manners, you will have to step in and take over their decisions for them. Watch their playing and split them up before they reach the stage of annoying each other, reward positive interactions, and don't ever leave them together unsupervised where you cannot enforce this control. This may mean babygates in doorways or two seperate crates, but the less they practice this underdesirable behaviour now, the more likely you are to avoid longterm problems.
I would count yourself fortunate that they are both boys - bitches tend to have more serious fallings out, though that's not to say boys can't either. Did they come from a reputable breeder, have you sought advice from them?
I would perhaps get the advice of a decent behaviourist who can visit, assess the situation and get a good training plan/household regime in place now to avoid further problems, because it will become a lot harder to deal with once they've had a serious falling out as adolescent dogs. http://www.apbc.org.uk is a good place to find a good behaviourist locally.

I would also recommend The Puppy Plan to puppy owners, to make sure you're covering all the bases in terms of socialisation etc. - remember to work on these with pups individually as well as together. http://www.thepuppyplan.com/?page_id=29
 
krlyr said:
I agree with all the points here. While dominance, in its original meaning, exists amongst dogs, the kind of dominance/alpha relationship between dog and human that Cesar Milan etc. would have us believe in just does not exist.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

Rather than some complex theory about which one would rather take over the world, I would imagine it is a case of two young, boisterous puppies that have undeveloped social skills due to leaving mum too early, who do not know when to stop or when to communicate their desire to stop to each other and that is why things are suddenly tipping over from playfights to disagreements. It's a bit like toddlers, they may very happily share toys and bang each other with their Duplo blocks but inevitably one will end up bonking the other on the head or taking a toy that the other one wants and there will be tempers and tears.
While they are so young and still learning the appropriate manners, you will have to step in and take over their decisions for them. Watch their playing and split them up before they reach the stage of annoying each other, reward positive interactions, and don't ever leave them together unsupervised where you cannot enforce this control. This may mean babygates in doorways or two seperate crates, but the less they practice this underdesirable behaviour now, the more likely you are to avoid longterm problems.
I would count yourself fortunate that they are both boys - bitches tend to have more serious fallings out, though that's not to say boys can't either. Did they come from a reputable breeder, have you sought advice from them?
I would perhaps get the advice of a decent behaviourist who can visit, assess the situation and get a good training plan/household regime in place now to avoid further problems, because it will become a lot harder to deal with once they've had a serious falling out as adolescent dogs. http://www.apbc.org.uk is a good place to find a good behaviourist locally.

I would also recommend The Puppy Plan to puppy owners, to make sure you're covering all the bases in terms of socialisation etc. - remember to work on these with pups individually as well as together. http://www.thepuppyplan.com/?page_id=29
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Alleluia (sp?) excellent and forward thinking advice. As opposed to the outdated dominance theory which has set dog training back a good 50years!
 
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I kept a second pup until 12 weeks as she had to have all jabs before going abroad. It is something I have always advised against and would never sell 2 pups to the same home but in this case I had no choice. It was far harder than just having one to concentrate on, it was lovely for them to play together but it took twice as long to do all the lead training, socialising etc separately. During the last week or so the 2nd pup was still with us she start getting a bit bolshy with my girl, and the pitch was changing from play fighting to something a bit more serious. When she was with them their mum sorted it out, but on a couple of occasions I did have to go in and give Paris (bullying pup) a bit of a scruffing and telling off. Had I been keeping them for life I suspect I might have had problems with aggression between them at some point but as Paris is now happily living in Spain the problem didn't arise.
I wouldnt use something like a rattle tin on 9 week old pups, although I would and have used it on an older dog.
I hope you do manage to sort your problems out, I have to say that personally I far prefer having just the one pup, it makes it so much easier to work with them.
 
In litters you do get puppies that are more tempered and others that are very laid back and wont even retaliate when a scrap breaks out, it maybe the 2 of them are pretty tempered and wont give in, when I had the litter of cockers in here the red heads where very tempered and would often fight one another in a more vicious manor and randomly pin down the other pups who would never retaliate but cower away, In this instance I would part them physically and block advances to when they tried to reignite:D so basically their advances became useless as I was always there:p I had a few people wanting to take 2 pups and I said (no way)!
This fighting is pretty natural of siblings and imo the least of your worries as to what is ahead in regard to training as suggested, unless there are 2 adults in the house on hand to train seperately, and for each person to walk and handle then you will feel like you are fighting a losing battle at times and you may jeopordise the training/result you may well have been able to put in to 1 pup and the results may be very different in the outcome.
A squeaky toy should be enough to startle them into re focusing their attention (at this age)
I would crate train them both so you can seperate them when unsupervised but keep them in the same area and so you can give treats seperate, try not to leave anything out to instigate a fight and use crates for feed time so there is no scuffles over food.
Dominance does very much exist but agree with the dominance theory being weak in this case, they are pups and this is what pups do.
I have a puppy guide (tips on training/crate training etc) if you think it would help PM me your email and I will send one on.
I personally woud say rehome one.
 
I have 2 Dobe siblings brother and sister who I adopted from Dobermann Welfare, they had to come as a package and were 18 months old. They have had very little in the way of training but are good natured and on their own quite easy. All the training has been one to one and then they go back together and it all goes down hill. The bitch will pick a fight with her bigger brother who will defend himself but I wade in and atm the bitch is on time out for an earlier spat. It is incredibley hard work and I can see why good breeders do not let 2 go together unless you have a home like Misterjay who works his.

Unless you have the time and commitment I would say rehome the 2nd puppy, if you do keep them both and dont get it right the 2nd one is going to be harder to rehome.
 
I have to be honest if I were you I would be looking for a suitable home for one of the puppies, as others have said keeping two from a litter is never a good thing you can't dedicate your time to training two puppies for starters its a lot of hard work and if you have horses as well to be honest it will not be easy, they can bond with each other but they can also be a serious problem as adults especially males.

For an example in one of my litters I have two male pups that whilst at home in the litter were always at each other but the others would sort them out and distract the more dominant puppy when he got out of hand. I insist that all my dogs attend training classes both KC run obedience classes and field classes so owners benefit from a decent recall. The two pups would meet regularly and at the end of the class all the dogs were let off for a little socialising and run around to pee etc before getting back into the cars to go home. now of the 8 puppies I had in this class the more dominant puppy would make a bee line for his sibling and all hell would break lose puppies or not they can still do serious damage and this will only get worse as they get older. Dogs mature incredibly fast within one year you will have two adolescent dogs on your hands that may make your life an absolute misery.

I certainly wouldn't be leaving them to get on with it, all that will do is ruin the temperament of the puppy that is being picked on - there is always one that starts and finishes a fight - and it will also encourage them to fight other dogs as adults. If you accept poor behaviour now it will only continue when they are adults when it will be much more difficult to correct. Distraction training rather than negative training is much better.

Its great that your stepping in for your parents but I do think you have to think long term and for the benefit of both your puppies, both those breeds can live long lives and its a big commitment to make.
 
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NeverSayNever said:
try pming cinnamontoast on here - she has 2 brothers i believe and overcame some issues.:)
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Thanks, hunny. :)

I'm on my second pair of siblings. It depends on the temperaments and you appear to have one dominant, one passive. That's all fine as long as dominant boy is not allowed to bully his brother. Injuries are worrying, but puppy teeth are like needles and it is, as mentioned already, more likely rough play.

Separate when you're out: is either crate trained? Monitor feed time so neither bullies the other and steals food.

Train, walk separately when they're allowed out.

You've got two intelligent breeds mixed in: when they're older, consider agility, training to the gun, something to keep their busy minds occupied.

For now, find puppy socialisation groups: dominant boy needs you to tell him no and maybe bigger puppies to reinforce that he is not always boss.

I am not any kind of expert :o so take advantage of the people on here who are and get them to separate puppy classes ASAP!

I know the populist idea is that two siblings bond and listen to each other and we have overcome this (eventually :o) with separate walks. They are, I would say, more bonded to us than to each other.
IMAG0303-1.jpg


P.S. We require many pictures!
 
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I'd go easy on the "alpha" role. They are just 9 week old pups, and didn't have that extra lesson from their mum & litter mates to start to recognise when enough is enough, and when the play biting is too hard. So time to teach them yourself :)

Agree with those who say intervene, but probably not by chucking stone-bottles around. Separate them when things get heated, and allow them together again when they are calmer. Also when they've had their jabs I'd get them out asap around lot of mature well-mannered, social dogs (alright, easier said than done :p ), who will also tell them to sod off when their play gets too much.


I don't envy you! Good luck.
 
Agree re walking and training separately, I could not take my two out at the same time when training at class, they would just scream their heads off to get to one another.
 
Thank you all very much for your comments. They were actually great last night. I have been using the water spray which works really well as it just makes them stop in their tracks and then they look at me very confused and forget what they had been up to.

We are already walking them as they have far too much energy and will end up damaging each other but we are lucky that we live on a farm and have oodles of acres to walk them in where no others dogs have been for at least the last 6 months (I did check okay by the vets, they said yes).

I am hoping to gun train our puppy at least and will train the other if he stays with us. I'm not sure what the plan is and whether my parents will want puppy 2 back when he is older and has had some training.

Our vets are running puppy socialization classes and have said that putting them in with the bigger dogs should help to teach them that they are not boss so we are on the wait list for that.

I would love to upload picture... How do I do that? Can I do it from an iPhone?
 
ItsAllPoppyCock said:
Thank you all very much for your comments. They were actually great last night. I have been using the water spray which works really well as it just makes them stop in their tracks and then they look at me very confused and forget what they had been up to.

QUOTE]

I thought they were only 9 weeks old!!!??? Would sack the trainer who told you to do this straight away!
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ItsAllPoppyCock said:
Thank you all very much for your comments. They were actually great last night. I have been using the water spray which works really well as it just makes them stop in their tracks and then they look at me very confused and forget what they had been up to.

We are already walking them as they have far too much energy and will end up damaging each other but we are lucky that we live on a farm and have oodles of acres to walk them in where no others dogs have been for at least the last 6 months (I did check okay by the vets, they said yes).

I am hoping to gun train our puppy at least and will train the other if he stays with us. I'm not sure what the plan is and whether my parents will want puppy 2 back when he is older and has had some training.

Our vets are running puppy socialization classes and have said that putting them in with the bigger dogs should help to teach them that they are not boss so we are on the wait list for that.

I would love to upload picture... How do I do that? Can I do it from an iPhone?
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Not sure re iphone, do you have photobucket, can you load straight to the computer from iphone or link from facebook?
 
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