Two questions re. Ben Maher...

Starbucks - of course everything changes, but its not always for the best and in the interests of the horse.

I agree that its better to have a slightly stronger bit used softly than a mild bit being used strongly, but its not good to have more metalwork in a horses mouth than an iron mongers and still jag the animal in the mouth like a lot of riders were doing yesterday.
 
Yay!
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Do you think if I print that picture off and stick it up in my 14.2hh's stable she will take the hint?
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Thing is though MizElz - do you actually know how it works and if it is really that terrible?? You say the horse didn't go very well - I'd say 8 faults it pretty good!!! Joint 3rd anyhow!!
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I just think it's so boring the whole "well we never needed all that back in the day...."
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Things change!!!


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Things do change, but not always for the better.......

I never said that Ben's horse did awfully, but having won the competition before in arguably better company, he didnt seem as happy as I have seen him in the past. Of course, there is nothing to say it was the bit alone that made him have 8 faults.....it just didnt please me to see such metalwork in a horse's mouth. I would be going against my personal principles if I said otherwise!

To say that the 'well we never needed that back in the day' argument is "boring" seems a bit strange....there are pros and cons of both traditional and modern methods and techniques, and that is what makes them so interesting to discuss!
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So he won it on four faults and then had eight faults this year... one of which was his fault at the last fence... yep a massive drop in form I'd say!
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I don't exactly see what the point of this thread is - do you think bits like this should be banned from competition? Do you think that they are cruel?? At the end of the day, Ben Mayer can use what ever tack he wants and, to me, he seems to be doing pretty well!
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Im pretty sure Alfredo has been in that combination bit for a while though, and had good results in it.

Being a bit bored and nosey...

http://www.benmaher.co.uk/gallery.htm

If you look at the pics of Ben Alfredo is in the same bit. So clearly the horse is happy in that bit, and was maybe just a bit too fresh/unlucky yesterday.

IMO whether its a snaffle or a combination it's the hands that make a bit harsh, yes some bits are sharper than others but then the rider must rider quieter with a stronger bit. If the bit works for the horse, without riding the horse yourself, I dont think you can judge too much on whats in their mouth
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So he won it on four faults and then had eight faults this year... one of which was his fault at the last fence... yep a massive drop in form I'd say!
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I don't exactly see what the point of this thread is - do you think bits like this should be banned from competition? Do you think that they are cruel?? At the end of the day, Ben Mayer can use what ever tack he wants and, to me, he seems to be doing pretty well!
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I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO
 
We may not have had such sophisticated bitting contraptions in the 60's & 70's but horses were certainly ridden in horrible bits and gadgets. Plenty of twisted snaffles, magennis snaffles, horses & ponies ridden in curbs alone etc etc.
Horses were maybe not prepared for young horse classes but they were expected to be out competing and working hard when youngsters, (I was Open TC & hunting my 4 year old
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The Germans in particular were a complete nighmare for having jumping horses overbent and bitted up to the eyeballs. It was only when the Americans arrived on the scene trained by George Morris and demonstrated that horses could physically jump in a snaffle with no martingale and free head carriage that things changed. That wasn't till the early 80's.
 
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I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO

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How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled?? He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well. With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby!
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So that blows your theory out of the water ME. I think you should no all the facts before criticising people...

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And I think you should back off and read threads fully and carefully without making immature judgements. No one is 'judging' anyone - I was careful to say that I respect Ben greatly as a rider, and that this was not an attack on him, but rather a discussion about the whys, wherefores and reasons as to why this kind of bit may or may not be used. I have not once mentioned 'cruelty', nor do I have any 'theories', and as far as I am aware, nothing I have said has been 'blown out of the water'. Grow up a bit, SB - we were having a very reasonable discussion before you got on the ar5e
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How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled?? He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well. With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby!
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Now that is just plain spiteful
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I think that the pressure for quick results in all our lives - not just equstrian - ewncourages quick fixes. Horses are pushed more and the basic schooling is missed. Horses are asked to give more and more sooner and sooner. They are not allowed to mature. How often do u see junior riders with every gadget known to man fitted - over fed ponies? bad riding ? lack of schooling ? Oh to go back to basics.
 
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I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO

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How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled?? He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well. With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby!
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I did say FROM EXPERIENCE and IMO, I second what ME has said.
 
this thread is hilarious - Ben only rode in a snaffle and a hackamore - what is wrong with that much better than some of the bits you see used ????????
 
I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!! I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..

I suppose I could have left the
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off the end, sorry for any offense caused...
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Question 1, I can't answer - only Ben can.

Question 2, Horses have changed, the courses have changed from big heavy poles to lightweight technical tracks. The pros themselves say that the horses they rode in the past would not be good enough now to jump. The equipment has changed, it has become more technical, but it has changed for the better.

Question 3 - How long before admin deletes this thread?
 
Hmmmm, a really interesting discussion, shame it had to descend into you taking offence on Ben's behalf, SB
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I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!! I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..



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Not directly comparable, no - but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here....
 
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Only because she was smaller? She was an excellent pony, well schooled, jumped 4ft and fast.

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Oh ok then, just the same.
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Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion
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I agree with Ripples... not sure why it go so stroppy
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, the bit debate was interesting and I have learnt something new, a result for a Monday morning!!
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Quote:
I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!! I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..


Not directly comparable, no - but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here....


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Do you think so?? I disagree. At a 2 ft clear round you would get away with generally steering in the right direction.. and you would probably get a clear round.

To jump 5 ft around a derby, you would need to be able to shorten/lengthen your horses stride at all times, be able to get them back from a gallop (i.e. after the water, before the rails) and stop dead with in a couple of strides on the top of the bank... Not quite the same at all??
 
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Only because she was smaller? She was an excellent pony, well schooled, jumped 4ft and fast.

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Oh ok then, just the same.
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!!!!!

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What is that meant to mean? If she was 16.2hh she could've easily been at the derby. I don't see your point.....at the end of the day, all I said was that she was in a snaffle until some numpty spolied her by putting a driving bit in her mouth. In fact, I was never actually comparing her to any showjumper, just pointing out my OWN experiences!!
 
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Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion

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I think she probably means it's that D word (don't have a clue how to spell it!!) against Ben... I don't think so though, but maybe discussing his sexuality is a bit cheeky!
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Have you missed the point, SB? Or are you wanting an argument?

Ben is using a bit that most have not seen the like of and because of its complexity, most are interested as to what its effect is compared to more conventional bits and the process of bit evolution specifically related to showjumping.

You seem to be jumping to Ben's defence when there is really no cause to.
 
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Do you think so?? I disagree. At a 2 ft clear round you would get away with generally steering in the right direction.. and you would probably get a clear round.

To jump 5 ft around a derby, you would need to be able to shorten/lengthen your horses stride at all times, be able to get them back from a gallop (i.e. after the water, before the rails) and stop dead with in a couple of strides on the top of the bank... Not quite the same at all??

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Yes, I agree you possibly would get away with it at 2ft - but even then some top horses jump for fun and could clear 5ft from a near standstill..... my point is more about being able to ride a controlled round, and ultimately if it is control and balance you are aiming for, it should not matter whether the fences are 2ft or 5ft. I wouldnt say a horse looks at a 5ft course and think 'Aha! These fences are huge, I must gallop really fast and pull my riders arms off.' Equally, many ponies would take a hell of a lot of balancing around a 2ft course, but it isnt because of the height - its just their way of going.
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