Tying up, myopathy, feeling anxious

TheSpottyCobby

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So, first time poster, long time lurker.
Long story short, my lovely little pony tied up massively last Monday. CK levels at 40,000, AST wasn’t mentioned but I’m sure it was high. Advice from the vet was total box rest for a week, with bute initially for the first 5 days.
He’s getting re-tested tomorrow, and I’m absolutely bricking it. He’s only 6 and a half and can be a handful when he’s in - he’d been in for a week previous due to a bit of thrush and having to have a bit of frog cut away so he needed to stay out of the mud. So we’re now at 2 weeks in and this is really his limit.
Initially the vet was concerned about atypical myopathy (until I explained to him that he’d been in), but he hasn’t shown a single sign of any other myopathy or anything at all apart from tying up on the way home from our short walking hack.
I don’t have any experience with this sort of thing, and no one else at my yard does either, despite me being around horses for 21 years! Any words of wisdom really appreciated, as well as positive vibes for tomorrow. Cookies if you’ve made it to the end!
 

windand rain

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Tying up has a lot of causes one the old fashionedd monday morning disease is where the horse ties up after having a spell inside on its normal diet so lack of exercise and too much food the prevention is to cut back food and increase exercise before increasing food. There are also quite a few genetic causes like PSSM etc
 
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TheSpottyCobby

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Tying up has a lot of causes one the old fashionedd monday morning disease is where the horse ties up after having a spell inside on its normal diet so lack of exercise and too much food the prevention is to cut back food and increase exercise before increasing food. There are also quite a few genetic causes like PSSM etc
I am wondering if I didn’t cut his feed down enough while he was in but he never gets a lot anyway as he’s a naturally rotund little cob. Everything he’s fed is low sugar, starch etc. The vet did say it could be genetic but wasn’t interested in testing as it’s never happened before
 

TheSpottyCobby

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Cobby is a flag for PSSM so may well be an idea to try the special diet recommended on various threads about PSSM
He’s an Appaloosa cob as well which I know is another flag. I’m going to wait and see what the vet suggests tomorrow in regards to feeding him, at the moment he’s on a tiny amount of spillers speedy mash just so I can get some magnesium into him . He refuses to eat the boring plain chaff I bought him as he’s a right fuss pot with feed
 

PapaverFollis

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Personally I would do everything to avoid stabling him for long periods in future and see if it happens again. Vets who aren't familiar with PSSM will advise box rest until the bloods are right but its not always the best thing apparently. Out and moving gently and then a slow reintroduction to work (start with just 1 minute in trot!). Consider giving vitamin E and keeping him warmer than you would normally keep a cob. Always warm up for a good 10 mins in walk before starting any faster work. Use an exercise sheet. Daily turnout and as much movement as possible is really important.

You can send off hair genetic test for PSSM1 yourself... look up animal genetics.

My mare has tied up 3 times, twice when not getting usual levels of turnout, all 3 times when she's been cold in the run up. The first two times were normal work but she went a bit nutty before she was properly warmed up. The third time I unwittingly overdid it by taking her walking in deep sand (tide came in over the harder sand while I was out there!).. I haven't tested for PSSM because I'm a bad person! But I treat her as if she has it because it's not a problem to do so. She's very needle phobic so have never gone down the vet drawing blood route either! I have also found Alcar seems to make a difference to her but that varies horse to horse. Vitamin E is the main one.
 

Lois Lame

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I once knew a QH lover where I worked and she told me that QHs have a gene for tying up. (ETA: or some bloodlines of QHs.)

Appaloosas these days often have a lot of QH blood. Years ago I used to read American magazines occasionally and one article mentioned the idea of creep feeding, where foals are fed from an area where only they can fit into to feed -- their mums stay out.

I personally think this has done them no favours. Did they develop some problem over the generations due to this? I sometimes wonder.

Monday Morning Disease, Azoturia, is often spoken about in English books on horse care. It's been mentioned, I know, above, but I thought that I would add that Mondays were often a day of rest for a well-worked horse, and if that horse were kept in its stable but given its concentrates even though being given no work, Monday Morning Disease would rear its ugly head. On rest days, all concentrates should be removed from the horse's ration, and he should only be given hay. And not rich hay, just meadow hay.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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Personally I would do everything to avoid stabling him for long periods in future and see if it happens again. Vets who aren't familiar with PSSM will advise box rest until the bloods are right but its not always the best thing apparently. Out and moving gently and then a slow reintroduction to work (start with just 1 minute in trot!). Consider giving vitamin E and keeping him warmer than you would normally keep a cob. Always warm up for a good 10 mins in walk before starting any faster work. Use an exercise sheet. Daily turnout and as much movement as possible is really important.

You can send off hair genetic test for PSSM1 yourself... look up animal genetics.

My mare has tied up 3 times, twice when not getting usual levels of turnout, all 3 times when she's been cold in the run up. The first two times were normal work but she went a bit nutty before she was properly warmed up. The third time I unwittingly overdid it by taking her walking in deep sand (tide came in over the harder sand while I was out there!).. I haven't tested for PSSM because I'm a bad person! But I treat her as if she has it because it's not a problem to do so. She's very needle phobic so have never gone down the vet drawing blood route either! I have also found Alcar seems to make a difference to her but that varies horse to horse. Vitamin E is the main one.
That’s interesting about the deeper sand. It happened just after we had walked across some very boggy and deep grass, he then shot off into canter for a few strides as he spooked at a child kicking a football, then he kind of just slowed down until I realised there was something really wrong and I jumped off and managed to get him home (thankfully we were only 250 or so meters from the yard as we were on the way home when it happened)
As you can imagine I’ve done a lot of reading about PSSM over the past week, I just find the whole thing really odd as he has not showed one single sign, ever, at any point. His muscles are always beautiful and soft, even in the coldest weather and I don’t over rug him as he’s always warm under 100 - 200g at the coldest points
 

TheSpottyCobby

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I once knew a QH lover where I worked and she told me that QHs have a gene for tying up. (ETA: or some bloodlines of QHs.)

Appaloosas these days often have a lot of QH blood. Years ago I used to read American magazines occasionally and one article mentioned the idea of creep feeding, where foals are fed from an area where only they can fit into to feed -- their mums stay out.

I personally think this has done them no favours. Did they develop some problem over the generations due to this? I sometimes wonder.

Monday Morning Disease, Azoturia, is often spoken about in English books on horse care. It's been mentioned, I know, above, but I thought that I would add that Mondays were often a day of rest for a well-worked horse, and if that horse were kept in its stable but given its concentrates even though being given no work, Monday Morning Disease would rear its ugly head. On rest days, all concentrates should be removed from the horse's ration, and he should only be given hay. And not rich hay, just meadow hay.
I’m pretty certain there’s no quarter horse blood in my lad as he’s a blanket spot traditional cob, but that’s interesting. He’s always been fed a couple of handfuls of Alfa A molasses free,a mug full of speedy mash and a mug of balancer split between 2 feeds. Not anything that I would have thought would have set this off but I suppose with it being winter I didn’t reduce this enough whilst he was in. He’s always on well soaked hay anyway, and it’s certainly not rich. I do want to test him for PSSM just in case, as otherwise this is a mystery to me (my vet was not particularly forthcoming at the time so hoping for more answers today)
 
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Gentle exercise will reduce the lactic acid build up in his muscles far quicker than standing in. Take him for a few short, quiet walks inhand for 10mins or so and increase it by 5mins each walk each day. Those CK levels are ridiculous! The AST will have been off the chart. The racehorses usually get to 5-6000 CK. Is he quiet in the field? If not then get some sedalin off of the vet and turn him out for few hours dozey so he doesn't run around.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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Gentle exercise will reduce the lactic acid build up in his muscles far quicker than standing in. Take him for a few short, quiet walks inhand for 10mins or so and increase it by 5mins each walk each day. Those CK levels are ridiculous! The AST will have been off the chart. The racehorses usually get to 5-6000 CK. Is he quiet in the field? If not then get some sedalin off of the vet and turn him out for few hours dozey so he doesn't run around.
That’s what I thought but the vet last week advised complete box rest with sedation to stop him moving around (I’ve still got the sedalin as there was no way I was doing that to him for a week, he’s chill in his box anyway)
He’s not exactly quiet in the field. We’ve got 200 odd acres and he goes out with a herd of 50 or so others (absolute horse paradise but not conducive to quiet time). He’s been in for 2 weeks now and he will go off like a bat out of hell. Last time he was in for this long he’d been kicked and then we had the beast from the east to contend with. He was a fruitcake!
 

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I have an Appy x draft with 1 copy of the pssm gene. It's really cheap and quick to test for at Animal Genetics and if you have it then box rest is absolutely the worst thing you can do. They need to be out walking gently to help those muscles.

If he's going to gallop off then can you make a pen and use that sedative to stop it happening? Return to work needs to be slow and steady especially with muscle enzymes at that level.

What are you feeding? Anti oxidants are pretty critical now. Natural source vitamin E (forage plus, progressive earth, equimins) & milk thistle to help the liver. Feed like a laminitic (soaked hay) until you know if you have PSSM 1 or something else.

You don't need quarter horse blood to have PSSM - type 1 genetically originated in draft horses about 1500 years ago and most Appys have draft in them way back. Cobs obviously do.

If you're anywhere near Liverpool then Cathy McGowan is one of the key vets specialising in the condition. I've yet to find a local practice vet who knows more than me - & I'm not bigging myself up, they really don't know much!!!
 

TheSpottyCobby

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I have an Appy x draft with 1 copy of the pssm gene. It's really cheap and quick to test for at Animal Genetics and if you have it then box rest is absolutely the worst thing you can do. They need to be out walking gently to help those muscles.

If he's going to gallop off then can you make a pen and use that sedative to stop it happening? Return to work needs to be slow and steady especially with muscle enzymes at that level.
What are you feeding? Anti oxidants are pretty critical now. Natural source vitamin E (forage plus, progressive earth, equimins) & milk thistle to help the liver. Feed like a laminitic (soaked hay) until you know if you have PSSM 1 or something else.

You don't need quarter horse blood to have PSSM - type 1 genetically originated in draft horses about 1500 years ago and most Appys have draft in them way back. Cobs obviously do.

If you're anywhere near Liverpool then Cathy McGowan is one of the key vets specialising in the condition. I've yet to find a local practice vet who knows more than me - & I'm not bigging myself up, they really don't know much!!!
Unfortunately making a pen for him isn’t possible with our turnout but I may be able to use a small paddock for half hour sessions. We’ve got a nice little indoor school which can also be used for short periods of turnout. He’s been in Alfa a molasses free (about two handfuls a day), a mug of spillers speedy mash and a blue chip balancer split between two feeds. He’s currently on half a mug of speedy mash as he refused to eat the boring plain chaff I bought him in a panic. I’ve got some natural vitamin e on order and will look at the milk thistle. He’s always on soaked hay anyway, he’s currently getting though about 7-8kg in 24 hours (his approx weight is 350kg), it’s offered ad lib to him whilst he’s in to keep him happy
We’re down in Essex so a very long way from Liverpool!
 

ycbm

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If you do the gene test it will only tell you if he is as type 1 PSSM. There are other types, currently only identifiable in the UK by a biopsy.

It would make sense just to put him on a high dose of vitamin E (make it natural, no added selenium) whether you think he has it or not. It may be significant that it's midwinter and the vitamin E levels in the grass will be low.

.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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If you do the gene test it will only tell you if he is as type 1 PSSM. There are other types, currently only identifiable in the UK by a biopsy.

It would make sense just to put him on a high dose of vitamin E (make it natural, no added selenium) whether you think he has it or not. It may be significant that it's midwinter and the vitamin E levels in the grass will be low.

.
I’ve got some natural vitamin e on the way, it was the first thing I ordered as soon as it happened. Due to Christmas it’s taking a little while to get here but I think it should be with me today
 

paddy555

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I have an Appy x draft with 1 copy of the pssm gene. It's really cheap and quick to test for at Animal Genetics and if you have it then box rest is absolutely the worst thing you can do. They need to be out walking gently to help those muscles.

If he's going to gallop off then can you make a pen and use that sedative to stop it happening? Return to work needs to be slow and steady especially with muscle enzymes at that level.

What are you feeding? Anti oxidants are pretty critical now. Natural source vitamin E (forage plus, progressive earth, equimins) & milk thistle to help the liver. Feed like a laminitic (soaked hay) until you know if you have PSSM 1 or something else.

You don't need quarter horse blood to have PSSM - type 1 genetically originated in draft horses about 1500 years ago and most Appys have draft in them way back. Cobs obviously do.

If you're anywhere near Liverpool then Cathy McGowan is one of the key vets specialising in the condition. I've yet to find a local practice vet who knows more than me - & I'm not bigging myself up, they really don't know much!!!

mine spent nearly a week in horse hospital and they didn't think of PSSM so I agree with SEL the vets know very little on this and they have less idea on the management of these horses.
You can do a hair test, send it to Germany and try to establish if this is PSSM 2 and what genes are involved.
You have several triggers for PSSM. Age is one, being in for a week another. Breed another and if you have not been feeding lack of vit E. You can PSSM 1 test on your own.. Many vets would not even be familiar with the test.

I would do everything PapaverFolis suggests in her first para.
If you keep a PSSM horse in it will be counter productive. It didn't work for mine. What worked was movement. I went against my vet's suggestions for this. Rest doesn't work.
I would get more rugs on he may feel warm at 100-200g but for PSSM he needs a lot more over his back end. The Vit e dose is 10000iu per day preferably split into 2 doses to start with.
Speak to your vet after re testing and ask what their experience is with PSSM.
I would consider getting him moving in hand out for walks with whatever you need on his head to control him.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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mine spent nearly a week in horse hospital and they didn't think of PSSM so I agree with SEL the vets know very little on this and they have less idea on the management of these horses.
You can do a hair test, send it to Germany and try to establish if this is PSSM 2 and what genes are involved.
You have several triggers for PSSM. Age is one, being in for a week another. Breed another and if you have not been feeding lack of vit E. You can PSSM 1 test on your own.. Many vets would not even be familiar with the test.

I would do everything PapaverFolis suggests in her first para.
If you keep a PSSM horse in it will be counter productive. It didn't work for mine. What worked was movement. I went against my vet's suggestions for this. Rest doesn't work.
I would get more rugs on he may feel warm at 100-200g but for PSSM he needs a lot more over his back end. The Vit e dose is 10000iu per day preferably split into 2 doses to start with.
Speak to your vet after re testing and ask what their experience is with PSSM.
I would consider getting him moving in hand out for walks with whatever you need on his head to control him.
I think I’m definitely going to test and go down that route, so at least I know what I’m dealing with, even if my vets don’t get it. My vitamin e has turned up this morning so we can make a start with that at least. The vet absolutely terrified me when he said I need to keep him in with zero movement as it goes against absolutely everything I’ve read up on. I’ve got a different vet coming today so I’m hoping I’ll get the go ahead to at least start walking him. Control head collar and bridle will be at the ready for sure.
 

SEL

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https://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-genetic-disease/pssm.html

If you've been on google you've likely already found the testing site. See what your new vet says but otherwise grab a pair of tweezers and a sealable bag (i used a freezer bag) & pluck out some mane hairs to send off.

If he's negative for type 1 then consider next steps but you're right that cob × Appy tying up is a red flag for type 1

The disease is all about management and part of that will be access to grass - very, very few can tolerate it. I do wonder whether it's worth broaching the subject now with your YO whilst you have a sick horse. People tend to be more agreeable about arrangements when they can see the problem in front of them.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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https://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-genetic-disease/pssm.html

If you've been on google you've likely already found the testing site. See what your new vet says but otherwise grab a pair of tweezers and a sealable bag (i used a freezer bag) & pluck out some mane hairs to send off.

If he's negative for type 1 then consider next steps but you're right that cob × Appy tying up is a red flag for type 1

The disease is all about management and part of that will be access to grass - very, very few can tolerate it. I do wonder whether it's worth broaching the subject now with your YO whilst you have a sick horse. People tend to be more agreeable about arrangements when they can see the problem in front of them.
Yep that’s the one I’ve seen.
due to our turnout being protected land we can’t do anything about splitting it up/ strip grazing etc. He will (and has) tolerated a muzzle in the past however. Where I’m based in east London/Essex border, yards are very few and far between and I’m so lucky with mine I really want to avoid moving him if at all possible. Vets finally on the way so I’m hoping that they will at least say he can come out of his stable
 

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Lots of good advice up thread, and I'm sure you've read a ton on the internet in the last few days...but the one thing I'd add is that my pssm horse becomes far more symptomatic when fed a balancer. No idea why, but minerals-wise he does far better on just salt and vit e.

I've also found that exercise involving holding a position for any length of time can set the muscles off into spasm. Things like walking for a consistent period over deep/claggy ground, working in the same frame for more than about 5 mins at a time, standing and eating from a haynet for a few hours straight etc. He can't cope without turnout either
 

TheSpottyCobby

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Lots of good advice up thread, and I'm sure you've read a ton on the internet in the last few days...but the one thing I'd add is that my pssm horse becomes far more symptomatic when fed a balancer. No idea why, but minerals-wise he does far better on just salt and vit e.

I've also found that exercise involving holding a position for any length of time can set the muscles off into spasm. Things like walking for a consistent period over deep/claggy ground, working in the same frame for more than about 5 mins at a time, standing and eating from a haynet for a few hours straight etc. He can't cope without turnout either
Well the good news is I’m allowed to get him out walking. I won’t know the results of the bloods until Thursday due to the new year but we can get out of the stable at least.
this vet was quite optimistic, said I can test if I want but as he’s never shown any other signs of PSSM that he thinks it’s more a case of him tying up due to him being in and me not reducing his feed enough
Really interesting about the balancer though as it’s only this year that I’ve changed him onto it. He’s never looked better annoyingly
 

PapaverFollis

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Oh yes, mine gets worse on a balancer. But she can tolerate grass pretty well as far as I can tell. But she does best on overgrazed starvation paddock/track with supplementary hay rather than lush grazing.

Interesting about deep ground DabDab. That and getting cold have been involved in all 3 episodes for mine. Both times where she tied up after going a bit nutso while long lining in the school the school will have been deep because of the rain.
 

paddy555

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Well the good news is I’m allowed to get him out walking. I won’t know the results of the bloods until Thursday due to the new year but we can get out of the stable at least.
this vet was quite optimistic, said I can test if I want but as he’s never shown any other signs of PSSM that he thinks it’s more a case of him tying up due to him being in and me not reducing his feed enough
Really interesting about the balancer though as it’s only this year that I’ve changed him onto it. He’s never looked better annoyingly

my horse came back with CK that wouldn't go down. We kept blood testing as mine had tied up. Surprisingly enough the first thing I thought of was AM but it soon became obvious things were not going that way. I looked up tying up and the choices were RER and PSSM but PPSM was something that QHs got so nothing to do with mine! I asked vet why CK wouldn't go down properly and they didn't know so I sent them off to ring round the vet schools to find out. In the meantime I googled it. Within minutes I had my answer. All those bits about tying up and QHs that I thought were nothing to do with mine (TB X Highland) suddenly were. :eek: Within a day I had him on the full PSSM regime and after a couple of days vet came back and said PSSM had been suggested as the place to start.

I am not sure what a balancer is but mine is on Equimins advanced complete supplement.

On the bright side there are a lot of horses who, when they are brought under control, do fine. There are also a lot of people on here who have been successful if PSSM is where you end up.
 

TheSpottyCobby

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my horse came back with CK that wouldn't go down. We kept blood testing as mine had tied up. Surprisingly enough the first thing I thought of was AM but it soon became obvious things were not going that way. I looked up tying up and the choices were RER and PSSM but PPSM was something that QHs got so nothing to do with mine! I asked vet why CK wouldn't go down properly and they didn't know so I sent them off to ring round the vet schools to find out. In the meantime I googled it. Within minutes I had my answer. All those bits about tying up and QHs that I thought were nothing to do with mine (TB X Highland) suddenly were. :eek: Within a day I had him on the full PSSM regime and after a couple of days vet came back and said PSSM had been suggested as the place to start.

I am not sure what a balancer is but mine is on Equimins advanced complete supplement.

On the bright side there are a lot of horses who, when they are brought under control, do fine. There are also a lot of people on here who have been successful if PSSM is where you end up.
It will be interesting to get the bloods back on Thursday. Hopefully a few hours out with a bit of sedation will keep him happy in the meantime. We’re never going to be world beaters but we do have fun out showing at local level and doing some riding club stuff, so hopefully we’ll be able to get back to that with a few changes to his diet and management
 

paddy555

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I need a little help.

What is CK?

And AST?

CK is creatine kinase and AST aspartate aminotransferase
briefly muscle enzymes associated with muscle damage.

when you get a horse blood tested a list of results come back which include CK and AST. Alongside the results come the lab readings for a normal horse. Horses that have tied up have elevated levels and in OP's case very elevated CK.
 
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