Tying up, myopathy, feeling anxious

[TheSpottyCobby]

CK is creatine kinase and AST aspartate aminotransferase
briefly muscle enzymes associated with muscle damage.

when you get a horse blood tested a list of results come back which include CK and AST. Alongside the results come the lab readings for a normal horse. Horses that have tied up have elevated levels and in OP's case very elevated CK.

Put much more succinctly than I could after my week of reading all sorts!

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

So, we’re at 2000 ck now, and allowed turnout as normal for the next 10 days, then re-test and hope they’re almost normal. If not then we’re looking at PSSM but I’m going to be treating him as such from hereon in. He’s been such a good boy throughout all of this, I really hope he’ll be able to get back to some sort of work in the not too distant future as he absolutely loves his job

 

[SEL]

So, we’re at 2000 ck now, and allowed turnout as normal for the next 10 days, then re-test and hope they’re almost normal. If not then we’re looking at PSSM but I’m going to be treating him as such from hereon in. He’s been such a good boy throughout all of this, I really hope he’ll be able to get back to some sort of work in the not too distant future as he absolutely loves his job

Do you know how the AST levels are doing? I tend to find my mare perks up as they drop more so than the CK levels. You will get back into work even if it is PSSM just always with that 'is he or isn't he?' question in your head every time he takes a stiff step or feels a bit sluggish. Paranoia is my middle name.....

Watch the grass at the moment. My mare gets a bit fizzy when there are grass flushes and its my cue to be really careful. She was a bouncing tigger the other day so was rapidly removed from the grass and we did walk work for about 45 mins - any other horse you would have popped into trot to wear them out, but bitter experience has taught me that's a bad idea.

Keep us posted

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Do you know how the AST levels are doing? I tend to find my mare perks up as they drop more so than the CK levels. You will get back into work even if it is PSSM just always with that 'is he or isn't he?' question in your head every time he takes a stiff step or feels a bit sluggish. Paranoia is my middle name.....

Watch the grass at the moment. My mare gets a bit fizzy when there are grass flushes and its my cue to be really careful. She was a bouncing tigger the other day so was rapidly removed from the grass and we did walk work for about 45 mins - any other horse you would have popped into trot to wear them out, but bitter experience has taught me that's a bad idea.

Keep us posted

AST is dropping although I don't have an actual figure to hand. Am I right in saying this wont drop as rapidly?
Haha I'm already feeling the paranoia. He's been very quiet in his paddock, and he'll be sedated to go back out with the herd, but I can't stop him having a bit of a hooley at some point. Thankfully at this time of year they don't tend to wander too far from the gate and spend much of their time browsing in the bushes and forest.

 

[SEL]

AST is dropping although I don't have an actual figure to hand. Am I right in saying this wont drop as rapidly?
Haha I'm already feeling the paranoia. He's been very quiet in his paddock, and he'll be sedated to go back out with the herd, but I can't stop him having a bit of a hooley at some point. Thankfully at this time of year they don't tend to wander too far from the gate and spend much of their time browsing in the bushes and forest.

Yes - it can take some time to drop. I've had normal CK levels and still had a miserable horse when AST was high. I just wish you could tell them that scoffing sweet grass and mad gallops with their friends is a bad idea ?

I hope the turn out goes ok. It is the best thing for them but you are allowed to start cursing if he decides he's a race horse / rodeo star.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Yes - it can take some time to drop. I've had normal CK levels and still had a miserable horse when AST was high. I just wish you could tell them that scoffing sweet grass and mad gallops with their friends is a bad idea ?

I hope the turn out goes ok. It is the best thing for them but you are allowed to start cursing if he decides he's a race horse / rodeo star.

My vet wasn’t too concerned, and was pleased at how much it has improved, although CK is still high it has gone down an awful lot.
Thankfully I’m not back at work until Monday so I can watch him for a while to make sure he doesn’t do anything too stupid. Our grazing isn’t lush at any time thank goodness and is suitable for laminitics as we’ve got a few lami ponies on the yard who cope very well out there, but I’m going to be ever more paranoid about sugar and everything else that’s for sure.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

So, a brief update, helps me to keep track of progress. We are now at two weeks since the incident. Turnout has gone well so far *touches as much wood as possible* and we are now building up to 5-6 hours a day now that I'm back at work. Hopefully by the end of the week we will be at his usual 7-8 hours. Repeat bloods on Saturday, where I will hopefully get the go-ahead to start with some light lunging/long-reining whilst under light sedation to improve the blood flow to the muscles and go from there.
Yesterday, he had his massage, starting off gently to see what he would tolerate. My fantastic therapist spent a good hour with him, and said that all things considered, he feels good and wasn't as tight as she was expecting (most of his tension came from the side of his neck where he'd been stabbed at for 25 minutes by the first vet!)
I've ordered him a Weatherbeeta therapy rug, I was looking at the Back on Track rugs but wasn't too sure about the sizing, so I will see if this helps at all. If nothing else, it will make me feel better I hope.
I haven't noticed any differences yet with the vitamin E, or with anything else to be honest, but I wasn't really expecting to as he has never shown any other sign of PSSM or anything similar. This will be a waiting game I'm sure.
Waiting to hear back on his hair test and then we will go from there. In himself, you would never know anything had even happened to him.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Three weeks post incident, so far no signs of anything untoward. Our vet visited again on Saturday to take bloods, of course with it being the weekend I won't hear back until tomorrow with the results - but fingers crossed they will be back to normal. We've been out for some good walks in hand now and back out for a full day of turn out. I had my heart in my mouth yesterday as they were all having a right hooley - with Gambit in the front (swear words were sworn!) but he seems keen and fresh as a daisy. He's been wearing his Weatherbeeta therapy-tec rug every day since it arrived and so far I am very impressed. Still waiting to hear back from Animal Genetics, I've subsequently noticed his breeder is a member of the PSSM UK forum on Facebook, so I am now 99% convinced this is what he has but hopefully we will be able to manage it.
Diet wise, he's currently on a mug of speedy mash with a sprinkle of Alfa A molasses free, with natural vitamin e, magnesium and we have just started on the Equimins advance complete powder. When I've finished this bag of speedy mash, I'm going to change him onto speedi-beet, and add in Afla A as needed as he does more work. 4kg's of well soaked hay over night, split between two nets and double netted (much to his disgust!)
Vet's only concern is his weight - he was doing so well before all of this happened, but it does not take long for the podge to come back, especially as the grass has kept growing all winter so far. Grazing muzzle is at the ready, and fingers and hooves crossed we can get back to ridden work this week!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

When you start back with ridden work take it slow and steady. Make sure you pretty much double your warm up and cool down time and to be honest, whether he is clipped or not I would have a 1/4 sheet on him to keep him warm.

Everything is going to the right way so keep up the good work!

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

When you start back with ridden work take it slow and steady. Make sure you pretty much double your warm up and cool down time and to be honest, whether he is clipped or not I would have a 1/4 sheet on him to keep him warm.

Everything is going to the right way so keep up the good work!

Quarter sheet is at the ready, he is Irish clipped at the moment but has started moulting on his blanket already! He's only worn the quarter sheet twice since I bought it during the Beast from the East, but something tells me he'll be getting a bit more wear out of it now. We've got a slow and steady plan the vet has given us to follow, he's hopeful we will be back to where we should be in time for some low key outings in April - although at the moment I couldn't care less about that, will just be relieved to be back on board!

 

[SEL]

Quarter sheet is at the ready, he is Irish clipped at the moment but has started moulting on his blanket already! He's only worn the quarter sheet twice since I bought it during the Beast from the East, but something tells me he'll be getting a bit more wear out of it now. We've got a slow and steady plan the vet has given us to follow, he's hopeful we will be back to where we should be in time for some low key outings in April - although at the moment I couldn't care less about that, will just be relieved to be back on board!

That sounds really positive.

If the breeder is on the FB forum then I really hope they bred it in by accident if that's what you find out he's got. Anyone purposely breeding PSSM should have a lifetime of sore muscles and a low sugar diet inflicted on them personally IMO!!

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

That sounds really positive.

If the breeder is on the FB forum then I really hope they bred it in by accident if that's what you find out he's got. Anyone purposely breeding PSSM should have a lifetime of sore muscles and a low sugar diet inflicted on them personally IMO!!

I am feeling a bit more positive now, although everything will depend on CK being back to normal now. Depending on the PSSM1 results, my vet has suggested a muscle biopsy but I really don't want to do that unless it is 100% necessary. Gambit it is up to you now!

I agree. She's a small scale breeder but it does concern me that she's on the forum. When it initially happened I did message her to just inquire if she was aware of any medical issues with any of her herd, she said no, and that she had no idea what PSSM or anything else was. Appaloosa traditional cobs aren't common, so I certainly hope she isn't deliberately breeding this way...

 

[windand rain]

Although breeders should not many do know anything at all about genetic illness so as long as they breed no more once they do know you cannot really blame them that much

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Tying up has a lot of causes one the old fashionedd monday morning disease is where the horse ties up after having a spell inside on its normal diet so lack of exercise and too much food the prevention is to cut back food and increase exercise before increasing food. There are also quite a few genetic causes like PSSM etc

Azutoria is what your refering too

Myopathy is different, my mare had myopathy and she started bucking in walk , then gradually trot, then canter , vet came up several blood tests she had to have 3 months off, as the muscles loose creatine, but you can walk a horse home where Azutoria you cannot.


My mare recovered but always kept an eye on her work, and had to warm her muscles up every time before schooling

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Although breeders should not many do know anything at all about genetic illness so as long as they breed no more once they do know you cannot really blame them that much

Oh of course, her being on the forum could be out of curiosity or just keeping up to date with issues which could effect the horses she breeds, however she was a member of the group before any of this happened, and I was just a little surprised to see her as a member when she'd told me she had no idea what PSSM is. It makes no difference to me as Gambit has a home for life with me anyway, but if he comes back as positive then some of her stock will be positive as well. I would like to think she wouldn't continue breeding but who knows. Her stallion (Gambit's sire) is absolutely stunning. So I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Azutoria is what your refering too

Myopathy is different, my mare had myopathy and she started bucking in walk , then gradually trot, then canter , vet came up several blood tests she had to have 3 months off, as the muscles loose creatine, but you can walk a horse home where Azutoria you cannot.


My mare recovered but always kept an eye on her work, and had to warm her muscles up every time before schooling

Still searching for answers as to what my boy has. It is looking like PSSM. I was able to walk him home (gingerly) in hand, but had no choice as where it happened was completely inaccessible for a box/trailer anyway.
The first vet who attended said myopathy (was trying to tell me it was atypical myopathy which scared me half to death until I explained he'd been in for a few days due to thrush and farrier's recommendation) but then called it 'Monday Morning Disease', then noticed he was appaloosa and said PSSM. Second vet is on board with the PSSM diagnosis (genetic results pending), if that comes back negative then he's suggested a muscle biopsy to diagnose, but I really don't want to do that if I can avoid it!

He's never shown any signs of any form of myopathy before it happened, not even a quiver. But the blood work states otherwise. Wish they could talk sometimes!

 

[SEL]

Still searching for answers as to what my boy has. It is looking like PSSM. I was able to walk him home (gingerly) in hand, but had no choice as where it happened was completely inaccessible for a box/trailer anyway.
The first vet who attended said myopathy (was trying to tell me it was atypical myopathy which scared me half to death until I explained he'd been in for a few days due to thrush and farrier's recommendation) but then called it 'Monday Morning Disease', then noticed he was appaloosa and said PSSM. Second vet is on board with the PSSM diagnosis (genetic results pending), if that comes back negative then he's suggested a muscle biopsy to diagnose, but I really don't want to do that if I can avoid it!

He's never shown any signs of any form of myopathy before it happened, not even a quiver. But the blood work states otherwise. Wish they could talk sometimes!

Even after mine had been diagnosed for 2 years a vet who was called out for a tying up episode kept going on about sycamore seeds. I was a bit upset at the time (tied up mid clinic) and sort of ranted about if she's got PSSM and tying up then its probably the flippin PSSM!! Rather than the muscle biopsy you could send a hair sample to the lab in Europe that tests for other variants, or you could just treat as if your horse has PSSM and see how you get on. Lots of horses manage very well and avoid any more tying up episodes - mine is on the more sensitive end of the scale.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Even after mine had been diagnosed for 2 years a vet who was called out for a tying up episode kept going on about sycamore seeds. I was a bit upset at the time (tied up mid clinic) and sort of ranted about if she's got PSSM and tying up then its probably the flippin PSSM!! Rather than the muscle biopsy you could send a hair sample to the lab in Europe that tests for other variants, or you could just treat as if your horse has PSSM and see how you get on. Lots of horses manage very well and avoid any more tying up episodes - mine is on the more sensitive end of the scale.

First vet just didn't get it when I said there was no way he'd been eating anything to trigger atypical (unless liveries had been feeding him sycamore on the sly!), and was surprised when he then took his vitals and everything was normal. The penny finally seemed to drop then, minus my momentary hysterics! It also helped that he then did a massive wee in front of the vet, which was completely normal.
To be honest, treating as if PSSM is just good management anyway so that is what I'm intending to do, I was already halfway there with the low sugar and starch, plus everyday turnout (which my farrier will now be mindful of if we have a re-occurrence of thrush) and 5/6 days a week exercise was our normal before this all happened.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Still searching for answers as to what my boy has. It is looking like PSSM. I was able to walk him home (gingerly) in hand, but had no choice as where it happened was completely inaccessible for a box/trailer anyway.
The first vet who attended said myopathy (was trying to tell me it was atypical myopathy which scared me half to death until I explained he'd been in for a few days due to thrush and farrier's recommendation) but then called it 'Monday Morning Disease', then noticed he was appaloosa and said PSSM. Second vet is on board with the PSSM diagnosis (genetic results pending), if that comes back negative then he's suggested a muscle biopsy to diagnose, but I really don't want to do that if I can avoid it!

He's never shown any signs of any form of myopathy before it happened, not even a quiver. But the blood work states otherwise. Wish they could talk sometimes!

Hope you get bottom of it, atypical myopathy is different to myopathy

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Well, after what seems like an eternity of waiting, the good news is bloods are all back to normal now - both CK and AST well below 300. We have the go-ahead to start slowly back into work, and to try and shift some of the kg's he's put back on before spring (not that the grass has really stopped growing at any point!). Plan of action is to manage as though this is PSSM moving forwards (no matter what his DNA testing comes back as), and hope that with some management tweaks this doesn't happen again.
We're still not really any the wiser as to what caused this whole drama (PSSM results pending), but it's looking like a combination of lack of vitamin e, too much hard feed whilst kept in, me neglecting to supplement the magnesium over the winter (bad pony mother!) and then everything just coming to a head when he spooked and shot off on boggy ground whilst on our gentle hack.
I expect I'm going to be extremely paranoid for the foreseeable however!

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

Results are back. He's positive - n/P1
In a way I'm relieved to find out so soon as to what has happened, on the other hand I am a bit heartbroken for the little guy. Grass is his absolute favourite thing in the whole world

 

[paddy555]

Results are back. He's positive - n/P1
In a way I'm relieved to find out so soon as to what has happened, on the other hand I am a bit heartbroken for the little guy. Grass is his absolute favourite thing in the whole world

I'm sorry but at least you have an answer a lot quicker than many do.

I suspect the trigger for this episode was leaving him stabled for a week before for thrush so I guess movement is going to be pretty important for him. The recommendation if they are stabled (overnight) is daily exercise so hopefully if you can do this he will keep out of trouble. Hopefully when you are able to get him into proper work it will help his waistline as well.

I know you are giving vit E and magnesium and presumably you are giving salt. You could refine his diet to include copra and micro linseed. (I appreciate he is fat) It may also be worthwhile having a look at alcar. (bulk powders do one)

I guess you will have passed the test results onto the stallion owner. I wouldn't want anyone else to buy a horse and end up with PSSM.

 

[TGM]

I agree with the above, we have one that ties up occasionally, suspected PSSM, and the main trigger seems to be when turnout is restricted (plus big bale haylage seems to be implicated for him as well). He normally is out at night and in for a few hours in the day, but if he does need to stay in for longer (for example in the recent storms) then we put him out for regular leg stretches in the school.

It hasn't stopped him being able to do this sort of thing:

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

I'm sorry but at least you have an answer a lot quicker than many do.

I suspect the trigger for this episode was leaving him stabled for a week before for thrush so I guess movement is going to be pretty important for him. The recommendation if they are stabled (overnight) is daily exercise so hopefully if you can do this he will keep out of trouble. Hopefully when you are able to get him into proper work it will help his waistline as well.

I know you are giving vit E and magnesium and presumably you are giving salt. You could refine his diet to include copra and micro linseed. (I appreciate he is fat) It may also be worthwhile having a look at alcar. (bulk powders do one)

I guess you will have passed the test results onto the stallion owner. I wouldn't want anyone else to buy a horse and end up with PSSM.

I'm glad I know, that's why I tested pretty much straight away. I can pass the info on to my farrier so he can be mindful on his next trim in case he suggests keeping him in again.
He has to be in overnight, and before this all happened he was in work 5 days a week anyway, so upping that won't be too much hardship, even if it ends up being a spin on the walker on the nights when I'm working late (usually happens once or twice a month).
He has free access to a salt lick, plus added salt into his feed. I will definitely look at the alcar as well, and the copra. I'd already considered linseed for his coat

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

I agree with the above, we have one that ties up occasionally, suspected PSSM, and the main trigger seems to be when turnout is restricted (plus big bale haylage seems to be implicated for him as well). He normally is out at night and in for a few hours in the day, but if he does need to stay in for longer (for example in the recent storms) then we put him out for regular leg stretches in the school.

It hasn't stopped him being able to do this sort of thing: View attachment 40484

I’m hoping that with a bit of luck and a fair wind we will be able to get back to doing what we love. At least I know for definite now which is the main thing.

 

[paddy555]

I love the jumping pic. Someone got the camera timing perfectly.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

I love the jumping pic. Someone got the camera timing perfectly.

My friend caught that one, she takes a lovely picture. He loves his jumping and we were just starting to brave 65cm courses. He’ll be keen to get back to it!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

At least you have an answer now.

My spotty is treated as if PSSM but I know he is type one negative as both parents are registered with the British appaloosa society and they require tail test for type one to be negative before they allow them to be registered.

I didn't do the muscle byopsy for type two as I didn't want to put him through that so we just treat it as he has PSSM.

I would make sure the breeder knows and also pop and email to the British appaloosa society to let them know just incase anyone with the same appy parent wants to register to breed part breds.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

At least you have an answer now.

My spotty is treated as if PSSM but I know he is type one negative as both parents are registered with the British appaloosa society and they require tail test for type one to be negative before they allow them to be registered.

I didn't do the muscle byopsy for type two as I didn't want to put him through that so we just treat it as he has PSSM.

I would make sure the breeder knows and also pop and email to the British appaloosa society to let them know just incase anyone with the same appy parent wants to register to breed part breds.

Breeder is aware as she’s on the PSSM forum. No response from her as yet and his sister is for sale as a breeding mare (not currently owned by her). I’ve popped the lady in question a message suggesting she gets her tested.
He’s TGCA registered and it would appear they have no such requirements! Going to send them an email when I’ve decided how to word it anyway as sire is an approved stallion

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Breeder is aware as she’s on the PSSM forum. No response from her as yet and his sister is for sale as a breeding mare (not currently owned by her). I’ve popped the lady in question a message suggesting she gets her tested.
He’s TGCA registered and it would appear they have no such requirements! Going to send them an email when I’ve decided how to word it anyway as sire is an approved stallion

That's bad. The registered bodies are trying their hardest to weed it out of their stud books but when breeders like this just breed without testing or just ignore it it is just cruel.


So I take it the sire is the Appaloosa?

Could you pm me his name as a friend was looking at appy Cross for sale last week and wasn't sure about messaging.

Just so I know to warn her just incase.